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Hi everyone,

First a quick update: DS6's individual tuition (for English, Maths, Science and an additional language)seems to be working well for him at the moment and he is enjoying still being with his peers for games, recess etc. So far I am pleased that we didn't accelerate him into a different year group, although we will not rule it out for the future!

I was wondering if anyone else has problems getting their children to sleep at night? We put DS6 and DS4 to bed by 8pm. DS4 is usually asleep within minutes, but DS6 will lie awake (light off and nothing to do) until as late as 10:30! Then I start feeling mean because it must be very boring... What do you all do? We have a bedtime routine which finishes with a story and then a "sleepy music cd" - it just doesn't seem to work. Should I let him read himself until later or would this encourage it? I would love some ideas please :)Is 8 hours sleep enough for an (almost) seven year old?

I do often lurk around but hardly post as I don't feel that I have any pearls of wisdom to add! That is why I only ever seem to appear with questions, sorry!

XX Tiz

What time does he get up in the morning and does he nap?

Hi,

He is up at 6:30 (7am latest) and never naps (not even if we go on a long car journey!).

XX

My son has a terrible time going to sleep. He says he can't shut his brain off. I have read that this is common in gifted children. (And, adults by the way...some sleeping only 4 hours a night!)

Since we have several other children, we put our DS6 1/2 to bed at the same time as the others (8pm). However, unlike the others, we allow him to read for about 45 minutes before we shut the light off. He usually lays there for about 15/20 minutes before he finally goes to sleep. We also allow him to draw on a lap desk sometimes. He is usually the first to rise at around 6:30am.

He seems fine with this schedule. No excess sleepiness in the day or anything. I think you really have to go with your own gut on how much sleep your kids need. We have some that can't function on less than 10 hours, and some that need only 7/8 hours a night.

Do you feel like he is cranky the next day?

DS5 has trouble turning his brain off too. He stopped napping before age 2, though he does nap every once in a blue moon now (more than he did from age 2-4). He and DD3 go to bed by 8:30 during the week, but that may change when he starts K this fall.

Like Master of None, the more physical exercise DS5 gets, the quicker he goes to sleep, so we do physical activities as much as possible.

I think it's ok to allow your DS to read for a bit, but I would give him a time limit.

Yes Master of None and JJsMom, we make sure he gets plenty of exercise but it doesn't seem to help much! Even though he is physically very tired it seems that he can't "switch off".

He doesn't seem to get cranky Movingup6, but I have noticed that towards the end of the week he copes less well with situations and I have put it down to tiredness.

I also find it tiring as he keeps calling down to ask what noises are etc. so DH and I don't feel like we get much of an evening (which I expect when they are teenagers, but not at this age)!

Someone posted about this not long ago and the suggestion was made that you need to limit the reading material to boring historical texts etc. If they get involved in an action packed novel, they're liable to stay up all night!

This made me giggle. I FEEL your pain. DS5 comes out of his room for every little noise. Sadly we live in a ranch (never again!!!), so he's closer to every single noise, laugh, etc!

When I was younger, I was the same way. My mom always told me someday payback for "tell me something I don't know" (my nightly ritual with them) would be at least double the "trouble" it was for them. They were right.

I can't shut my brain off either, so I sometimes pretend I'm in a room where the four walls are closing in on me. I always seem to fall asleep before I get squished. Of course, I wind up thinkin' about the Star Wars scene where they are trapped in the garbage dump and the walls start to move in (or was that ESB?). I've heard others think of water rushing over them (like in a shower or waterfall), and that helps them.

Good luck in whatever you try!

Hi Tiz,

I have one of those kids who needs sleep but fights it every way. In fact, the more tired that he becomes, the harder it is for him to settle down and go to sleep. He is 8, with his ninth birthday approaching this summer. He seems to need about 10.5 hours of sleep per night. We have a very strict and fixed bedtime routine, and any deviation from that leads to problems. We just this weekend experienced the ramifications of this by letting him stay up to 9 pm on Friday and Saturday night. We could not get him to sleep before 10 pm on Sunday night. He spent two whole hours staring at the dark ceiling.

The odd thing about my little guy is that, if he gets shortchanged on his sleep, he begins to wake up earlier and earlier in the morning. You would think that he would just add some extra sleep time by sleeping in for a change. No chance! It is almost as if when he becomes very tired, he can't get into a deep, restful sleep. Sleep can act like a reset button for the brain, so maybe it makes sense that if he gets exhausted he actually sleeps less and less. This weekend, when he went to bed an hour later, he woke up at 6:15 am on Saturday morning and 5:45 am on Sunday morning. Talk about sleep deprivation!

I don't know if anything about my child would apply to any other child. He seems to be a very unique individual. But I thought that I would post this and see if it sounds like your child as well. We start his bedtime routine at the absurdly early hour of 6:45 pm. He reads quietly in his room for about 45 minutes, including getting his jammies on and brushing his teeth. I then have 30 minutes of snuggle time with him with lights out. This allows him to talk about his day, or any philosophical issues that are weighing on his mind. It is amazing how much he calms down when snuggled next to a warm body who is yawning loudly. At 8 pm we kiss him goodnight and close the door. He is generally asleep by 8:30pm and sleeps until nearly 7am.

Last night I knew that he was exhausted, even though every sign that he was giving me was that he was wound up and hyper. He had a small dip in energy levels around 7pm and I pounced on it, so to speak. I put him to bed by 7:20 pm, before he could catch a second wind. He feel asleep quickly and slept for 12 straight hours last night.

Weird, totally backwards, and completely foreign when compared to any other kid. That's my boy!!

Love the suggestion to limit reading material to historical texts etc - very sensible and not something that I would have thought of!

JJsMom - so pleased to hear that someone else FEELS the pain! LOL We are in a small house so every noise is magnified and DH and I tiptoe around after 8pm (if we even so much as close the cupboard too noisely DS shouts down!)

Ebeth, 30 minutes of snuggle time sounds good and I wonder if that might reset my DS - I am just worried that I will fall asleep It sounds like you have your bedtime routine well and truly sorted!

One thing I've also done is convince my son that rest is as important as sleep. I read this somewhere and since he is a HUGE medical junkie that takes medical advise VERY seriously, it's helped to pursuade him to lay in his bed quietly after reading time. If he can get to that point, he will usually fall asleep pretty easily. I sometimes tell him that while he's laying there his cells are regenerating and stuff like that. He likes the thought of becoming more powerful, so that also helps get his buy in.

He still sometimes pulls the "what's that noise" game, or the I need a drink of water game, etc. I guess that's just part of being a kid.

My husband and I also treasure our alone time, so our son's sleep issues have been challenging in the past! I am happy we've finally gotten to a reasonable schedule for us. I hope you can get to the same place.

By the way, I found that classical sleepy time music actually excited my son when he was a baby. Not sure what you are using, but you might want to change his bedtime rituals bit by bit, so you can evaluate what is and is not working.

Thanks for all the advice everyone - with bedtime approaching I am ready to put it into action!

Ok, this is sort of off the wall, and we only had mixed-results ourselves. When ds8 was about 6 we got him a bed-tent. Basically it's a little pop up tent which slips over the bed mattress and encloses the child, he really liked it for adventure-appeal and coziness but I am not sure he got to sleep a lot sooner, but they are recommended for this reason (brains not shutting off for some kids).
Now, we let him read for a while, this seems to do the trick.
Good luck!

Mine are as mentioned earlier. If I let them stay up later then they will be awake even later. If I put them to bed earlier they actually go to sleep earlier. Yes it is backwards but it does work, on all of them but my true "not a morning child" she needs more sleep than all the rest no matter when she goes to bed. My 6yr olds sleep 10-11 1/2 hours. It varies between the two of them.

Be glad you don't live near a train track then. We do. It's not always noticeable when there is noise inside the house, BUT of course, it's not loud in the house when my two SHOULD be sleeping! haha.

My DD6 has a giant stack of books (like 20) in bed with her, the night light on and the radio playing softly. She needs to be asleep by 9PM and we say goodnight between 8:15 and 8:30. This routine allows her to wind down on her own time and she's usually asleep by 9PM. Sometimes it goes until 9:30. Last night she fell asleep with a Multiplication book still in her hand!

I don't think our DD could get to sleep any other way

I am the same way - I have to have some sort of stimuli in the background such as TV or I won't sleep. My mind is off wandering in a million directions.

I have a problem getting mine to bed, and he just turned 14 (really, I feel like I do not belong here anymore since most of the stuff is about preschoolers )

He has no problem getting up in the morning, no big problem anyway, but he would love to stay up late. We watch Star Trek as a family, if time allows, in the evening. If it is Saturday, he will stay to watch SNL (with our blessing).
On a school night, he will frequently say things like "I am OK, I do not need that much sleep, it is fine if I skip a few hours " etc.
He is up right now (it is 9;40 P.M. here) doing Mathcounts (state competition this Sat. )problems and when he is done we will watch Star Trek. So bedtime will be close to 11 P.M. with a wake uo call at 6:30 A.M. due to the choir practice. He handles it quite well, my 11 year old needs more sleep. I am exhausted!!!

My ds6-almost-7 is the same way -- he's in bed by 8 every night, but would stay up till 10 or 11 if he had his way!

He's in his bed at 8, we read a story together, and then we allow him to read quietly until 9:15 or 9:30. Then lights off. Sometimes he's asleep in 10 minutes, sometimes he's up another hour.

I don't have a problem with the reading -- actually, I read every night before I go to sleep. I just can't get into the sleepy mood without a good 20-30 minutes of reading! I often fall asleep while reading, and that suits me just fine. I need something to lull my brain, and reading familiar books does that for me.

We do make him turn the lights off, though, and I think 9:30 is pretty darn reasonable -- it's at least a compromise. He does still have 30 minutes of reading time and usually an hour or two nap on the weekends -- he turns into a whiny wreck around 5pm on the weekends if he doesn't nap. Odd, because he's fine on the weekdays ...

My DS6 has always fought sleep. But boy does he need it! Our bedtime routine includes a short video (30 min. or less), a snack, teethbrushing, and reading to him for about 10 minutes. Then something I started about a year ago is giving him a qigong massage. This has helped a lot.

Qigong massage is a form of Chinese Medicine and has a history of over 3000 years. I've been doing consulting work over the last year for a local MD/acupuncturist who has developed a treatment protocol for young children with autism using qigong massage. I've been using this massage on my typically-developing (in terms of no autism) DS3 and DS6. And what I've found it is it really helps my DS6 with slowing him down for sleeping.

After the massage, DS6 reads on his own until about 8:30 or 8:45 and then we have to turn out the lights, otherwise he would read probably the entire night! (We have forgotten to turn out his lights a few times and he's still reading strong at 10:30 when we go to bed!)

Qigong massage is a very different angle at addressing sleep issues, but it is intriguing to me, as I've never worked in the alternative medicine arena before... (Oh, and the studies done on this with children with autism has shown great success in addressing their sleep problems.)

I will add that none of us, kids included can fall alseep worth a hoot without white noise. I don't know if it occupies some part of the brain or what but it takes forever to fall asleep without it.

Well I cuddled him to sleep last night so he was asleep by 9:30pm (as was I - I did warn you all that I would doze off!) but unfortunately he was awake at 5:30am and also managed to wake up DS4!

I am making it my mission to ensure he is totally tired out by the end of today :-) If not, I think that I am going to give up and just let him read himself to sleep (nothing too exciting of course).

Just wanted to add that although they say activity tires out kids and they sleep better, I have found that more brain stimulating things help my DS4 sleep better. He sleeps better when he has done some more challenging things. Like when he switched preschools and started at a Montessori program...sleep improved. Just thought I would throw that out there as well. Someone may have already mentioned that though...didn't read all the posts in this thread yet.

Thanks for that shellymos, I am going to sign up for Aleks maths for him - he loves maths and I think that it will make sure he is properly challenged (especially as he is now on an Easter break for four weeks!). Does anyone know what level/choice I should start on for an (almost) 7 year old? I can't figure out what course to choose! We are in the UK so I am unfamiliar with the US school grades. Thanks.

We just started our son (who's 7) out on Grade 3, their easiest level. They give assessment tests, and you can test out of things, so they'll tell you when your kid has learned 90% of the grade level and suggest you move them up. They don't have to plod through a level if it's too slow for them - just take an assessment test. If they prove they know it, without gaps, they can move up. And the next grade makes sure they keep the old knowledge up, too. If you guessed wrong your kid could move to another class very quickly, and without stress about missing important material.

Oh thanks montana - I have just done a separate post about this as I realised I had probably put the question in the wrong place! It is good to know that you can move classes!

XX

On the Seng Webinar last night, Dr Fiedler addressed the fact that so many of our kids have trouble getting to sleep or staying asleep (that's our problem). She recommended using what she called an "idea trap". Basically it's a small notebook or journal that kids can write down all of the thoughts and questions that seem to come to them as soon as their head hits the pillow. Then in the morning they can ask their questions. She said many kids stay awake for hours because of a fear that they'll forget their "most important question" and not be able to get an answer. She said the notebook can also be sent to school for those kids that have "AHA!" moments in class that tend to be disruptive. They can write it down and then take care of it when it's more appropriate.

This is something that i'm going to try with DS6. Although he goes to sleep easily at 8:00 every night, he rarely stays asleep. He wakes up in the middle of the night full of questions, concerns and ideas. Maybe this will allow me more sleep! Worth a try...

What a great suggestion!

melatonin has helped calm the racing thoughts at our house. DS was quite suprized to experience the feeling of 'getting sleepy.' He had no idea before....

Ok, I am going to earn the tittle of complete freak, but I have been breast-feeding DD to sleep until very recently!

This has made her sleep within 10 or even 5 minutes

Now I am working very hard to wean her, but i still have to trick her, so I pretend for example (after I have put her to bed and put dim lights) that I am going to put my pajamas and leave her for about 10 minutes. If this does not work, I sing her a few songs and of this does not work, then I bf her....

Anyway, even with the help of my 'nams' (as DS calls them) she sleeps better if she has enough mental challenge. Exercise does help too, but the mental one seems to be more important. And she needs some good time to cool down in the evening, although it is difficult to say how much it is because I have to take care of DS at the same time, who becomes quite difficult and tornado-like when he is tired....

About DS... my kleine-tornado... he as well falls sleep when I bf him, but it takes longer, up to 30 minutes sometimes. And the bad part is that he does not want to bf when he does not want to go to sleep. And he cannot sleep until 6 or 7 hours after his nap - he really has trouble sleeping earlier.

I think both of them would be much more easier to handle if I could put them to bed separately but unfortunately DH arrives most days quite late


Oh well....

Oh can I relate to this post! My DS6 had pretty much never really slept through the night.....he stopped napping at about age 2 and when he was between ages 2-4 he pretty much was up 4-5 times a night. He has Sensory Processing Disorder and has extremely sensitive hearing...he can hear things that I can't even hear. So things really bothered him at night and he would wake up at a drop of a pin. We put in a noise machine for him and he picks what sound he wants to listen to at night. He also can't "shut off his brain" - our night ritual is in bed by 8:00 - then we read 4 books and lights out around 8:30 and then my husband and I switch each night....after lights out, he is allowed to talk and share about anything he wants. We have found that he really can't switch his brain off and he will bring up things that I didn't even remember happening earlier in the morning. I actually enjoy this time with him as we snuggle and talk...he is usually asleep by 9:15 or so. We have found that this talking session allows him to release any worries or just help his brain slow down a bit! He still wakes up 1-2 times a night but he is getting better at falling back asleep pretty quickly.

Isa I am sure that no-one here will judge you - we all know how important our sleep is and like my friend always says it's not like they will still be bf at 18!

Belle, my DS6 sleeps well once he is asleep but he does grind his teeth terribly during the night! I was curious as to what time your DS6 wakes up? How many hours does he sleep in the night? We are on Easter holidays here and my DS6 seems to think that it is an excuse to wake up extra early...meanwhile poor DS4 will fall asleep as soon as his head hits the pillow and not stir for the next 12 hours (although up until a year ago he was awake numerous times during the night and had only ever slept through a handful of nights since birth). It seems DS4 is trying to catch up on some sleep

XX

DH and me used to joke that she will be at the University or with boyfriend and still wanted to bf !!

On the other hand, she used to wake up at night until very recently and I had to bf to sleep every time... We co-slept until she was about 4 and from 3 years old to 4 it was a nightmare because DS was as well in the big bed and they both have fights at night to see who got mamma's 'nams'. Then between 4 and 5.5ish I would go from one bed to another.
But now, FINALLY, she is pretty much sleeping the whole night and when she awakes it is enough to quickly make her do 'pipi' and put her back in bed and she falls sleep in two seconds by herself.

DS usually sleeps as well almost the whole night, except when not and then I can spend two hours trying to make him sleep again.

Anyway, in RL I do not dare to mention that I still bf DD... with the exception of two friends - who obviously do not approve it but sense that it may be not a good idea to start a discussion on the topic.

"DH and me used to joke that she will be at the University or with boyfriend and still wanted to bf laugh!!" (sorry I don't know how to insert your original post)

Isa - this made me LOL - I'm sure that it will not come to that! A lot of people have very strong views about bf, but I always feel that everyone's situation is different and you must do what is right for your family and situation.

Tiz DS6 sleeps an average of about 10 hours - but he sleeps in most days because we homeschool (he usually sleeps till 8-8:30) - I think if he had to get up for his old normal routine of school, he would be a wreck! He doesn't ever wake up at the same time during the night - it's always different. We actually had a sleep study done on him to look for things like grinding teeth or apnea and they pretty much found nothing...just a little guy who wakes at the drop of a pin.

Belle, do you know if grinding teeth is a bad thing and how do you stop it? He does it so loudly some nights! I am worried he is going to wear them away...

At least with homeschooling you have some flexibility with your DS's routine, but it is exhausting when you have disturbed nights!

XX

Grinding teeth is a bad thing! I recently found out that I grind my teeth and it's causing all kinds of problems.

Talk to your dentist about it.

Thanks Kriston - I think that a visit to the dentist is in order! He grinds so loudly it can wake us up (although it doesn't seem to disturb him :)). I am worried that he is going to wear away his teeth, although now that he is on holiday the grinding seems to have subsided..

We have sleep issues here as well. My DS8 has a terrible time falling asleep. In his case, I think reading before bed is what keeps him awake. My friend says she is the same way. I'll call her in the AM and she can barely talk b/c she stayed up until 5am reading a book! We had a few days where DS lost everything in his room, including his books, for very poor behaviour and he fell asleep very quickly. NOw he's back to reading before bed and is pushing falling asleep until 10-11pm. He's never needed as much sleep as other kids and stopped napping at 2yrs old. He claims that he wakes several times each night due to bad dreams and that he is afraid to go to sleep b/c of bad dreams. He doesn't read scary books before bed. My mother had nightmares every night of her life. I have very vivid dreams which just wear me out. If I'm getting exercise and don't have much sugar/chocolate before bed, I sleep much better. I found DS8 reading at nearly 11pm last night. Of course this AM he is very bleary-eyed. So I'm going to go back to reading in the living room before bed and then no books in bed and see if that helps.

If I snuggle w/ DS8 he falls asleep quickly. But i have 2 other kids (5yr and 2yrs old) and DH doesn't get home until 8:30-9pm so it's difficult to sit/lay with him for 15min or so.

Now my 5yr old who has been my sleeper child.....napping until he went to K, putting himself to bed every night w/out being told, is having sleep issues probably b/c he's not happy in K. It's taking him a long to go to sleep.

Tiz, I am from a family of teeth-grinders. I have been told that it is hereditary (from a misaligned jaw). However, I am not totally convinced, because I stopped grinding a few years ago for no apparent reason. I have found that during times of stress, I grind aggressively. Not sure if that's true for all grinders, but could explain why your son's grinding slowed down over holiday.

Grinding erodes the tops of your teeth, making them oversensitive to temperature (and sometimes overly sweet tastes, etc.) A toothpaste for sensitive teeth usually helps people who have mild problems with this.

Dentists typically like to stop the grinding by creating a custom night guard for the grinder. The guard properly aligns the jaw and protects the teeth. I tried this solution and bit through two guards. They may have better materials now (my experience was several years ago).

One of my daughters is also a grinder, but it is very sporadic, so we haven't gone the night guard route yet.

Good luck with finding a solution for your son!