Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Dysgraphia? PANDAS? Or just gifted and intense?

Hi, my ds (6.5) is really struggling this year...just barely hanging on in the first grade. I see lots of people posting their kids' scores and getting interesting responses, so maybe someone can help!

He basically will not write. He CAN write-- to fill in one-word responses, spelling tests, etc-- but when faced with a blank page and asked to express himself, he completely flips out. I mean he becomes very anxious and begs to do anything else. It turns out he has not filled out his in-class "reading log" (which requires him to answer long comprehension questions) since SEPTEMBER-- the rest of the class dutifully fills in the pages but he ignores the expectation and just keeps reading whatever he wants, apparently. He is supposed to fill in a weekend journal each week, and his entries generally read someone like, "I played. It was fun."

Anyway, here are his scores:
WISC:
VCI 148
PRI 145
WMI 120
PSI 115
FSIQ 144
(I did not get the GAI but calculated it myself, it was 158-- not sure if that's right.)

WIAT:
Word reading 160
Reading comprehension 135
Pseudoword decoding 148
reading composite 160

numerical operations 116
math reasoning 133
mathematical composite 130

spelling 115
written expression 118
written language composite 119

listening comprehension 142
oral expression 160
oral language composite 160

wiat composite score 149

To put this another way, he reads at grade level >12.9 but spells at grade level 1.8, written expression 2.8.


Initially, the teacher thought he had ADHD, but I resisted. It did not quite add up... I didn't buy it.

In Oct/Nov he had 4 different cases of strep, and his behavior grew more and more erratic (jumpy, anxious, nonattentive, defiant, glassy-eyed)-- but then, when he was given the right antibiotic (in early December), it was like all the behavior problems suddenly, immediately disappeared. His teacher noticed it to. When he went off the antibiotic, the strep came back and so did the behaviors... then, on the antibiotic, it all went away again. Now he has a diagnosis of PANDAS-- which is an autoimmune disorders in which the body overproduces strep antibodies, which in turn attack the basal ganglia region of the brain. PANDAS could cause all the strange behavior. Another symptom is a deterioration of writing ability. And sometimes numerical operations.

And meanwhile, though his behavior is MUCH better, he still refuses to write. He is about to flunk first grade.

Raising this child is really wearing me out.

Anyone have an opinion??? Thanks!

Hi Bronxmom:

BK mom here, also with a DS who doesn't like to write.

There can be many different reasons for this behavior. I think you should ask for an evaluation for dysgraphia or a full-blown neuropsych exam. If DS is in public school, you can just address it to the Committee on Special Education, care of DS's school.

On the other hand, if it isn't dysgraphia, or not related to PANDAS, there are lots of other reasons kids don't write. I think it is common for GT young kids to resist writing. They can rarely keep up with their train of thought while writing, so it becomes very frustrating. For my DS, now in 4th, the teacher allows him to dictate ALL his homework, including the reading journal. It has made a big difference. He then spell checks it and checks his reading level using that tool. That has been a motivator for him to write more complex sentences, because he wants to increase his score.

Also, there's something about the level of maturity of the child. My DS is only just now getting the idea of writing for a reader who isn't him. DS's school uses the Writers Workshop model where there is a real focus on early story writing, and his stories would be practically incomprehensible, because he used so few words and sentences and didn't explain anything about characters. Characters would have names, but no explanation of who they were or very much detail on what they were doing.

Also, because of that maturity issue, he wasn't thinking about writing something the teacher would like to see or to show her that he knew the material being covered. For example, the mini-lesson might have been about tags to use instead of "said," but he wouldn't bother to use any.

Finally, he also tends to freak out when he has to organize sentences into something bigger. Our OT recommended using graphical organizers and that did help somewhat. Filling in the forms helped him organize his thoughts. It was still frustrating because it involved handwriting. Perhaps you could do this with him and write down what he says IN the graphical organizer.

Finally, for performing what the school wants -- i.e. boring and useless (for child) reading logs -- We told DS that the teacher thought these sorts of things were important, she needs to know what and how much you are reading, it is part of her job, and it is showing disrespect to her not to do this and turn it in.

We got letters home that DS was not meeting grade level standards in writing/grammar/spelling for two years in a row. He still got promoted to 3rd and 4th grade. I think in NYC public schools at first grade they are most concerned about reading level and if your child has a high reading level, he will get promoted. They don;t even seem as concerned with math, at least not until end of 2nd grade. For first grade, they do a predictive test you can ask your DS's teacher about, called the E-CLAS, I think, that pretty much is their main measurement of progress, and it is ONLY on reading/comprehension, as far as I know.

Finally, if you are having power struggles, or tears and more over the hefty homework, I recommend Why Bright Children Get Bad Grades by Sylvia Rimm. Great advice that has helped us somewhat.

GL,

bk1

Hi, Bronxmom,

First of all, welcome. With those scores, your son meets the DYS criteria and I highly recommend you apply. My DS had similar handwriting issues - caused by fine motor issues, poor environment, and more. He just despised writing. Now he's in third grade, we're homeschooling, and it's starting to come together. Basically, I just took the pressure off and went back to having him write less so that he could work on speed and fluidity in workbooks, science notebooks, etc. Seems to be working. And I let him dictate when he can't even get started, and then copy it over in his handwriting.

I'd say apply to DYS, and get some help from the experts.

Hi BronxMom,
i don't know anything about PANDAS, but I do know that raising a kid with scores like yours can be E-X-H-A-U-S-T-I-N-G! But this PANDAs thing sounds very scary? Are there internet sites for that?

My son was a 'reluctant' writer until age 9, when his typing skills finally 'came it' and he was able to type at 100 wpm. After that he became a wonderful (although still strange) writer. Folks who don't like his style feel that if they were reading one of his research papers aloud, that they would never have a chance to catch their breath. I was stunned reading one of his papers at the sheer 'density' of the information that was presented. I found it dazzeling.

In 1st and 2nd grade it was exactly as you described. Short answers, sentence fragments, stick figures when he had to draw. The teachers were always writing ' Show More Details!' on his paper and wanting him to use a graphical organizer. He still is reluctant to use an outline or graphical organizer - but now he can juggle the whole thing in his head. Seriously, my estimate is that it would require a paper over 20 pages to get him to actually NEED an outline.

My advice would be to gently hothouse keyboard technique, try to get accomidation so he can dictate, or make powerpoint presentations or video blog entries, and have faith. I would work on the handwriting itself a bit with the 'handwriting without tears' workbooks. Basically the writing will take care of itself. I don't care if he flunks first grade and never writes a whole sentence in the classroom all year and all next year. His miserable life in school worries me much more. You want him to develop self esteem - the way that happens is if a child eventually overcomes a challenge that is challenging in their view. You want him to develop a work ethic. That also demands that he work at his 'readiness level.'

The phrase 'Asynchronous Development' really seemed to fit my son. The writing will come eventually. But being in a classroom situation that makes him miserable can cause harm that is very tricky to reverse. 1st grade is supposed to be fun. It isn't normal to 'hate life' or 'hate school' at this stage.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Just want to let you know you are not alone!

DS7 has similar score in a few area of WISC IV. Last year in KG, he fought so hard with the teacher and us. He would sit in class for journal writing and would not write anything for 45 minutes. I was volunteering and the teacher showed me. He was the best reader in class and the worst writer.

This year in 1st grade, his teacher complained again about him not writing. So we sat him down once again and told him he could not avoid writing in his life. DS7 was stubborn, but we persuaded him that if he didn't start writing, he will have a serious problem later on.

DS has caught up a lot since the beginning of this year. He is not the best in terms of handwriting. I can't ask for more. One time just a few weeks ago, his handwriting was so bad that it looked like a paragraph of letters. The process is painful. We are still going through it. I just want to let you know you are not alone and hopefully there is light in the other end of the tunnel for you.

Cindi,
Not all GT kids are stubborn - but the ones who are stubborn are REALLY stubborn. Also a lot more of them feel 'up against the wall' in the school environment.

I think I have an idea for you. The 'handwriting without tears' has a thing that is aimed at OTs called 'The Print Tool'

The print tool is a way to turn 'ugly writing' into an actual score. I talked DS into being my first 'test subject' on the pretext that I wanted to turn this into a side business. Once he saw that 'pretty handwriting' had actual criteria, that translated into a score, he got the picture. He was 10 at the time, so it might be 'too early.'

At age 7, DS12 fought us so much on things like - 'leave a space between words that is twice as big as the space between regular letters,' and 'Leave a margin on both sides of the page.' But when he was 10, spending about 30 minutes with the actual scoring sheet was enough to convinse him that 'these really are the rules.'

DS12 didn't handwrite at all in 6th grade, and mostly used his laptop in 7th grade, but towards the end of last year, he started showing me his 'classroom notes' and they were so beautiful! So much for the idea that one has to practice handwriting to improve!

Anyway - good job convinsing your DS that it was in his best interests to practic writing. I think that some of these great readers set the bar so high that they become discouraged and can't bear to even try.

Smiles,
Grinity

My ds is similar in the writing avoidance (you inspired me to start a thread, I didn't want to hijack yours!), but we don't have the health issues ...

I think Grinity's advice is spot-on, and maybe I should have re-read it! Will they *really* make him repeat first grade if his writing isn't better? What are the odds that his writing problems are actually related to PANDAS? Were there writing issues before he got sick, or do they seem sudden-onset?

It may just be a maturity issue and he'll grow past it, as the ladies have told in their kids ... I don't know, since I'm in the same boat!

Bronxmom - welcome! WOW on those scores. I definitely second whomever said to apply to DYS!

My friend had a son who sounds a bit like yours as far as writing. He's now being homeschooled for 3rd grade, and he writes very well! Things can get better.

IMHO I think schools focus on writing much too early and it's developmentally inappropriate for many kids, especially boys from the reading I've done on the subject.

I would think your DS needs some time to get over his illness and be further removed from the pressure he likely felt to write when he was ill and no one knew what the issues were.

I can't imagine they would fail him.

The best typing game I've seen on the web:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/typing/

My ds hated to write too, perfectionism, maybe. Sorry to hear your ds is struggling/struggled with this illness that seems to have pushed him away from area where he might really excel.
Very big welcome, and hugs!!

One thing that was sort of a breakthrough for ds was a weekly writing 'prompt' that the teacher would send home. It had a subject and a question to sort of get the ball rolling at least. A huge blank page can be a bit much for anyone!
Then on the other end of the spectrum ds started attaching too much significance to the prompt and it was sort of stiffling his creative juices. I explained to him that he could just write about whatever the prompt brought to mind, he didn't have to necessarily write 'what he thought the teacher wanted'. Really, at the point we were at, I would rather he write something fun and interesting and get an F instead of write the minimum number of sentences with no joy at all.
He finally hit a happy medium; he is still a minimalist but will have a beginning-middle-end thing going most assignments. (Unfortunately this year it is harder for me to tell since most writing is done at school. )

Also, about failing 1st - you might want to check with the teach if you are just assuming that is the case. You might be surprised by what passes as passing...maybe it'll just take a summer school class to make things up, especially considering he's been verifiably sick, poor guy
I think in this case it is a good thing that schools usually recognize that a child's self esteem sometimes trumps 'showing mastery' of a subject before moving on. Hopefully you will find some flexibility that will work for your ds. You are probably already meeting with the school, but if not, you might want to get that ball rolling.

Hi all, thanks for your comments!

About DYS, we did join-- I got the testing done not for this purpose but because I was worried and teacher was pressuring me (in fact the testing was done at the height of the PANDAS crisis-- he came out of the WISC with a 102 fever, so who knows if that affected his scores)-- but when I saw the scores I did the DYS application, and now I am waiting to start talking to them. But I don't want to be an overwhelming PITA from the very beginning! How much help can I hope for from them? Basically I am trying to decide whether to home school, or to find another school.

I will definitely get "handwriting w/o tears" as this has been recommended more than once.

My instinct is to just let him be a little on the writing... because at this point all the pressure seems to be generating a real phobia. So I want to let it go completely for a little while, then come back to it calmly. My husband (not his father) vehemently disagrees and of course thinks I cater to him way too much. And the teacher also doesn't agree, so we are sending mixed messages, which he reads loud and clear. And the assignments really ARE stupid... he knows I agree with him.

I don't really think they will FLUNK him, but this is a school in NYC which people basically chop each others' arms off to get into...if I voluntarily give up a spot it will probably make the news. I think the school could make our lives miserable until I decide to withdraw him.

I'm sure others have been disappointed by a "gifted" school which seems to have no idea how to help a truly gifted child.

Oh boy... homeschooling, here we come! The problem is that my husband might not support me, I am also working (p/t time, evenings, so it's doable) and have a new baby. Also this child is EXTREMELY stubborn, so...

About the test scores... is a difference of 115 PSI/158 GAI a red flag, or just normal for gifted kids? What about the difference between 160 in reading and language comprehension vs. 115 in spelling and numerical operations?

Also, I believe he's had this PANDAS since he was a toddler and first had strep... and this has been the cause of at least some of our difficulty... since his behavioral problems have waxed and waned over the months, confusing everyone. His handwriting HAS deteriorated a little this year, or did it never really develop? He shows a lot of signs of dysgraphia that have been mentioned earlier... mixing upper and lower case... poor spacing, etc.

Here is a link to a site about PANDAS:
http://www.adhd.com.au/PANDAS.htm
Interestingly, this seems to afflict precocious children mostly, especially early talkers.

Thanks again... baby needs me!