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    Joined: Nov 2011
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    mithawk Offline OP
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    I have been on this forum for many years, but I haven't been actively recently. But as this forum helped us when my kids were young, I wanted to give back to the community. I recently retired and I have free time now that I need to fill.

    My kids are now in their early 20s, which means that they went through the college admission process back a few years back. They did exceptionally well, with one attending the University of Chicago and the other Harvard. But between them, they were also admitted to almost every top-10 college they applied to. Through the process of guiding them, I learned much about selective college admissions.

    Since then, I have helped family and friends, also with great results. And even though my kids are done with admissions, I still keep up with changes on the admission process through College Confidential, where I frequently give advice under a different username. My specialty is in STEM admissions, but I have helped students with interests in humanities and business as well.

    Now that I am retired and getting a bit bored, I am looking to volunteer in this field in a more structured way. Do you have a child who is in grades 8-11 and who is targeting selective
    colleges, and would you like my help? If so, reply to the thread and I will send you a PM to follow up. Don't send me a PM as my envelope is constantly blinking so I don't check it that often.

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    I wanted to follow up from my daughter's experience. She went to a private academic, that sent a couple of kids to Harvard every year and other top schools. In her year, only a trans kid got in. This year, only a trans kids got in. Not the academically strongest, but that is the way it went.

    But, in hindsight, like Cinderella's slipper, I would like to talk about what happened to my daughter. She ended up at USC, which was a good choice because she wanted biological oceanography. Because of her 12 APs she ended up starting as a sophomore. A month in, she got 2 research positions. One paying $16 an hour. The other one free labor. Until the second semester, now she gets $16 an hour for both. One offered her a summer position. And since the head of the team got an extra 2 million, decided she could head up her own research project. Yes, write her own paper. Now, many schools are offering this "spend an extra year and get a masters thing", you need 2 years of research, she will have 3. And letters of recommendation, which she will have and the credits: since she will working there for the summmer, taking 2 courses. So in 3 years, she will graduate with a double major: marine bio and oceanography and a masters. Yes, this is true. Also, her goal is PhD at MIT/Woods Hole. The team leader, who is giving her this opportunity has his PhD from MIT/Woods Hole. He is globally recognized, can help her network-- requirement to get someone to be your advisor for your PhD.

    So in hindsight, USC turned out to be the golden ticket for her. If you want a general education, to go into law or medicine or business, then Harvard or Yale are great choices. But if you want something specific, I would suggest looking for unique opportunities. Did not expect this, but she is fast tracking in her field. She would never have gotten this at Harvard or Columbia. Maybe Stanford, but not sure. I participated in previous college discussions about what are best choices for colleges. My daughter feels lucky now that she did not get into Harvard. She is writing a paper in oceanography, her own research, technically while she is in her first year of undergrad. Who else gets this?

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    mithawk Offline OP
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    Wren,

    I am happy to hear your daughter has found what appears to be a great fit for her. I agree fit is one of the most important things to help a student thrive in college. Far too many people focus solely upon prestige.

    For example, I would discourage most Ivy League colleges to aspiring engineering students. Among them, only Cornell is particularly strong, but still overall weaker than say Michigan or Georgia Tech. Among the most elite schools, only MIT and Stanford are particularly strong in most engineering fields.

    Also, the emphasis on undergraduate research varies by school. MIT encourages it a great deal starting in freshmen year, and it's also pretty common at Princeton which is undergraduate focused. It happens less at Harvard itself, but it's also possible for a Harvard student to work on a research project at a joint Harvard-MIT research institute such as the Broad Institute. The point is that elite schools are distinct from each other, reinforcing the point that fit matters.

    However, I strongly disagree with your characterization that Harvard, Yale and its peers are only good for preparing for careers in law, medicine and business. The first real benefit is having an outstanding peer group throughout college. While there are some very strong students at every state flagship or better, the difference is that the vast majority of students at the elite colleges are very strong, and some are world-class. It makes for a different learning and social environment.

    The other thing is that these schools really are outstanding in many fields, ranging from English Literature, Mathematics, Physics, and Philosophy. These schools also do a great job in placing students into graduate programs even outside of law/medicine/business. As for career opportunities right out of undergrad, I won't go into detail except to say I know first hand that students from the elite schools have a different set of opportunities than those that attend most state flagships (and yes, I know that USC is a private school).

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    Since my daughter's private academic was placing kids in these schools. The experience in her grade was diversity mattered more than academics. The trans girl that got into Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Princeton et al, applied as joke since her grades were mediocre and her ECs weak. But got into all. All. She laughed about it, took Stanford.

    This year also, the trans boy got in. His grades were better and he had connections. But it threw the whole class for a loop. The process is changing. My late husband was Harvard class of 80. It was a whole different dynamic then. And connections are not the same. Nor like when I went to Wall St. Now kids in business are doing all kinds of business competitions, recruiting two years out for summer positions, it is crazy. Because there are a million and one kids in business programs, not only Harvard, NYU, U Chicago and so on, all good, all competitive and these kids are jumping through loops I have never seen before.

    And since my husband went into medicine, Harvard doesn't help there, you have to apply and get in like everyone else. Same with law.

    Yes, top students are going to do well getting placed in graduate programs, but I think expectations might be a little off.

    There was that study, way back when on Hunter high school. Kids that got into the elementary school then went on to the high school, did less well than the kids that only entered Hunter for high school. They were more driven. They had less entitlement or something.

    A classmate of my husband had a daughter, older than mine, who went to Harvard undergrad for oceanography then PhD Stanford. My daughter is in touch. There were very few courses for her and little research opportunities. But yes, she got into PhD for Stanford. She is now working for people with only their masters. They have a greater knowlege base and experience than she has. It kind of shocked her, shocked my daughter hearing that. But I can understand it.

    At USC aerospace engineering, there are kids working on ISS projects like docking stations, in their second year.

    Do you remember the old commercials about Avis, we're second, so we try harder? USC has all this research giving their students opportunities that you don't always get at most schools.

    Is it great for journalism, or international relations? I would probably go to American U for international relations, isn't that the place?

    Like I would go to Carnegie if you want AI.

    But you said you know first hand. Well my daughter is being mentored by this woman who did her undergrad at Harvard, because her father went to Harvard, and it was not the best choice for her career. And it doesn't help her with her career now. She did not get the research opportunities even close to what my daughter is getting. In hindsight, Harvard hurt her career. If she had done her undergrad at Stanford or USC, she would have a better knowledge base. And better networking in this field.

    I am just trying to provide an alternative. Before this, I was a die hard Harvard fan. And I firmly believe that if my husband was still alive and donating she would have gotten in. She had an amazing package. The guidance said it was the best package they had sent Harvard in years, and they always got kids in. But the trans girl, who applied as a joke, got in. And they filled the legacy spots with living parents. Yes, I was very disappointed, but now I am glad she is not there.

    And I wanted to stress my conversion to all the other parents out there and say there are amazing opportunities for kids. My kid's application for Stanford was screwed up by her school, so that was not an option, which made me very sad. But she ended up with a golden ticket.

    The fact that she has created all this, I think also speaks to her go getter ness. She networked, she got the opportunities, she did the work, created more opportunities. She is doing first year PhD research starting this summer. Because this top oceanographer got an extra 2 million and thinks she is bright and hard working. Where else does this happen? And he is the type of connection she needs to get an advisor for her PhD at MIT.

    So in your experience, you see this. In my experience, I see that. Just wanted to provide an alternative to the group.


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    mithawk Offline OP
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    My offer to the community is that I can help improve chances of college admissions. I am not suggesting that the elite colleges are the best fits for everyone. What I am instead saying is that given I have some insight as to what the most selective colleges are looking for, helping guide students for less selective colleges is even easier.

    Within the past two years, some of my recommendations have included that students apply early to Harvard, MIT, NYU, Northeastern, and UPenn. Those recommendations were made based upon the strengths and interest of each student and the fit for each student to that college. All were admitted.

    On College Confidential, I am known as the go-to person for chancing students in STEM, and particularly in mathematics. Beyond what I post publicly, about 6-10 students very strong students each year send me PMs asking for more information. I give them detailed advice on how students similar to them have done and give recommendations on which reaches, matches, and safeties they should apply to. The only thing I ask in return is that they tell me where they were admitted afterwards, so I can calibrate my advice for the future.

    Backing up a bit, Harvard's most recent admit rate is 3.4%, and for MIT it is 4.7%. But the thing is that almost no individual applicant has that chance of admission. It is either much higher or much lower. Both colleges have much higher admit rates for under-represented minority (URM) applicants. Harvard also has much higher admit rates for what are known as ALDC applicants, which stands for recruited Athletes, Legacy, Development (i.e. big donor families) and Children of Faculty. Among these MIT only provides an advantage for recruited athletes. Collectively, URM + ALDC are known as the major hooks to admission. If you are not hooked at Harvard, your admit rate is less than 2%. It is so low that most applicants applying early there are wasting an early application that could be better used elsewhere.

    So why am I confidently able to tell some unhooked applicants they are likely to be admitted to Harvard or MIT, and usually be right about it? It's because my son won a major set of awards, and through him I had visibility into how well students with those awards do. There are a handful of STEM awards that are effectively "golden tickets" into the elite colleges, with award recipients getting into an average of three of the HYPSM (Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford and MIT) colleges. Beneath that, there are several awards that make admission to one of those likely. And beneath that, there are certain awards that make admission likely for the next tier of selective that use Early Decision (ED) rather than the Early Action used by the HYPSM colleges.

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    aeh Offline
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    mithawk, this is a kind and generous offer on your part, to share what you've learned about the process with other families. Our children have made decisions that suited their holistic needs, and did not happen to include the universities in this group, but if they had chosen otherwise, this kind of advice would certainly have been welcome.

    Wren, your DD's story has a lot of overlap with those of our DCs. While the application to an elite was never made, the experience at a less-well-known institution has been very similar. I think it's a reminder that sometimes applicants are not asking the right questions (or don't even know what the questions are at the time) when trying to determine fit. The name and reputation alone are insufficient to indicate whether this particular student's needs will be met there. Going through the next tier (grad school admissions), our DC has let the unexpected benefits of the undergrad experience inform the process of researching appropriate PhD programs with a more thoughtful and personalized set of questions--a discussion in itself, of course.

    And fwiw, the research, publication and teaching opportunities and professional connections made at a small regional public have been sufficient to gain admission to an elite doctoral program (where DC does note, to mithawk's point, that the caliber of classmates is noticeably different).


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    Thanks aeh for the input. There was a student from my daughter's school, who went to Harvard a few years before my daughter graduated. The whole thing, Harvard, connections. Two years in, didn't know why she was there. And is becoming a high school teacher. Not that Harvard is not a great school to become a high school teacher, but there are many cheaper options for that path. But most kids graduating do not know what they want, except maybe medical, law or business, because that seems to be a good choice. I think it is interesting that Bill Gates son choose U of Chicago, for math and comp sci. His sisters chose Harvard. One was focused on ballet. What we want, is for our kids to thrive and excel in their chosen programs. And maybe helping them figure out what their path is, is a good program. I asked my kid in 9th grade, what is it that you really want? She refined, but really didn't change her mind. That may be unusual, but helping kids figure it out may a good thing. And then they can figure out their right path for college.

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    mithawk Offline OP
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    Originally Posted by Wren
    I think it is interesting that Bill Gates son choose U of Chicago, for math and comp sci. His sisters chose Harvard.
    Interestingly enough, my daughter chose the University of Chicago (she's met Rory Gates, and says he's a nice guy). My son chose Harvard. Both chose their colleges on the basis of fit.

    For those who know, the University of Chicago and Harvard are nothing alike, despite both being elite colleges. It is ridiculously easy to graduate from Harvard, whereas the University of Chicago is known for being highly demanding.

    My daughter is naturally a bit of a slacker, and works to meet the expectations of her teachers. She also knew that she performed her best when she was pushed. If she attended Harvard, she wouldn't have worked very hard, whereas at Chicago she had to put in a lot of work, and in doing so learned what she was actually capable of. She thrived there to such an extent that we couldn't imagine a better place for her. When applying to colleges her attitude towards Harvard was "I will go there if I absolutely have to."

    In contrast, my son has overly high expectations of himself, wanting to be the absolute best at everything. We discouraged him from attending MIT because MIT has a culture of students over-burdening themselves and he thought he would burn out there. At Harvard he could instead take hard classes (like Math 55) and also take classes at MIT when it suits him. But when he starts feeling it is too much, he can choose among the hundreds of easy classes at Harvard. It was a good fit for him.


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