Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Reverse acceleration due to ADHD??

I'm interested in your opinions and projections in this situation. I will include a lot of background because I think the situation is complicated.

Background:

DS10 has ADHD, combined type, but he's not hyperactive. He's IMPULSIVE! On medication, he was getting into behavior funks due to loops of negative thoughts. The thought patterns negated the effect of the medication. He is off medication now since there's no point in paying $5K/year for no change in behavior. I have been giving him cognitive behavioral therapy materials and books on mindset, etc. When he's in a good mood the effect is about the same as medication, but he's not yet able to get himself out of a negative thinking loop.

The ADHD pushes asychrony to a whole new level. He executive functioning is comparable with a 2nd grader. His writing ability, hindered by ADHD and perfectionism, is middle school level. He absorbs material at high school to college level. He is at the end of what I'm able to teach him, especially in math, and I'm very concerned because he doesn't have the executive functions to be able to handle high school or college classroom on his own.

He is currently homeschooling and I don't think I can continue with homeschool because he refuses to do schoolwork. Yesterday he spent 8 hours and only did one math problem. There was all kinds of screaming about how he hates math and "a boy my age shouldn't be able to do this". After DS2's bedtime, I sat DS10 down at the dining table and ignored him. After a few minutes he is exclaiming "I can do these as fast as I can write down the answer!" He's capable of doing the work, I know that's not the problem. This is how almost every day has gone here for the last 3 years. He is refusing to comply with very minimal expectations.

A major piece of this is that he feels like he's getting away with it. I have a chronic illness which is unpredictable - some days I'm unaffected, other days I'm almost bed-bound. He takes advantage of the situation and pulls out his worst behavior when I'm physically unable to do anything about it.

His #1 issue is learned helplessness with his behavior. He believes he cannot control himself and that he is not responsible to control himself. Behavior interventions, rewards, punishments backfire badly because in those, the adults assume responsibility for his behavior.

Question:

I'm strongly considering putting him in public school without acceleration. I'm feeling that academic match is a privilege and he has blown his opportunity - maybe a year of normal education will enlighten him as to how privileged he has been? I can't do tutors. We're doing that now and it costs as much as college. I can't justify paying $800/semester for a tutor when he's not doing the work and isn't making progress. We've exhausted the option of virtual school. The remaining option is public school. I'm inclined to put him in public school without acceleration to escape the perpetual family conflict of DS10 not doing his schoolwork.

What do you think about the situation? What outcome would you project?

(((Hugs))) to you. I especially admire how you consistently strive to support your child's growth and giftedness, although you may not have received that support yourself as a child. There are many gifted kiddos who were cut down as tall poppies, not allowed to eclipse their siblings*, classmates, etc... you are not alone. Your many helpful posts indicate you've studied giftedness so thoroughly that you can see a lot of what of could've/would've/should've been done for yourself as a gifted child to provide far-reaching benefits into adulthood. Your kiddos are very fortunate to have such a dedicated parent.

To some degree, it may one of the important jobs of childhood to test the limits. Some kids may be especially adept at this. I feel for the kids who do not have someone to set healthy limits or to maintain the limits when tested... whether the parents are unknowledgeable, unconcerned, or stretched thin for a variety of reasons.

I would see a potential advantage of public school for your son that he may have an IEP and a team of teachers who may not be as easily exhausted as a parent with a health condition. I would still advocate for appropriate academic placement, or least-worst fit... and not intentionally immerse him in lower level, unchallenging academics. I would also look into options for him to self-advocate for higher-level, more challenging academics if he is not learning something new.

Kids need appropriate academic challenge and academic/intellectual peers in order to develop necessary life skills and mental health.

The outcome I would anticipate would be:
- a period of novelty
- a period of trying to coast and play the system
- a realization that his strategy is not working, he is not happy with what his choices are garnering, and that he is in control (can make different choices)
- a period of growth and self-advocacy
- readiness to homeschool, with a new-found appreciation for learning, internal locus of control, ferreting out resources to fuel his own growth and education (putting his energy and intelligence to good use rather than to testing limits).

*gifted kiddos not allowed to eclipse their siblings: Pet peeve regarding the Iowa Acceleration Scale, as described here and here.

You're in a tough situation on two counts: your child and your health.

From what you've described, you've gone above and beyond the call of duty in trying to educate him. Sending him to a public school could be good for him. Kids need to know that there are acceptable and unacceptable behaviors, and sometimes they need an external source to teach them that lesson. As a parent, you can tell him stuff and advise him regarding behavior, but he won't have to learn lessons until his actions have consequences. That can't happen when you can't get out of bed. Teachers and other kids will provide the consequences in a way that a parent can't.

You have a right to be able to take care of your health, which means that you don't have to put your son's desires over your own needs. You'll be much better able to address your medical condition if you don't have the added stress of a defiant child getting in the way. He doesn't have a right to do that to you, and IMO, you shouldn't let him. So I agree with your idea about sending him to public school. He's lost a privilege.

As for the gap in executive function and learning ability, I'd like to suggest something new.

Very poor EF may indicate that he isn't actually ready for high school-level mathematics. Being able to understand concepts and/or do the mechanics of the math is only one part of what's needed. Moving to abstract topics requires a different kind of thinking and an ability to be organized --- about how you think about the problem, how you structure your approach to it, and how you go through the steps of writing stuff down. It's essential that math be practiced daily, or the skills get rusty quickly. So even though he can do the work when he wants to, it's not enough. He needs to develop discipline for working consistently. Plus, working only when you want to just isn't how life is. Sometimes you have to do the task NOW because you just have to, and that's all there is to it. He's at an age where some daily homework will help him learn that lesson. Even if the work itself is easy, the part about getting it done will be hard. So he can learn the second skill without sacrificing knowledge.

A lot of what we learn comes through facing adversity. Your post indicates that some adversity may be precisely what your son needs. I really mean that --- NEEDS.

Best of luck. I know it's not easy.

What Val said.

Val is one of the pithiest posters here - if she posts something I always read it.

Over the years I have learned a great deal from posters like her.

You cannot make casualty out of yourself because you will be unable to function let alone be a parent.

At 10 there is plenty of time for him to come to his senses and recover any lost ground a strong dose of reality - cold and harsh it may be, sounds like just the ticket.

I appreciate your responses very much. They're the opposite of what I expected to hear, actually. I feel relieved with some others agreeing that public school wouldn't be a horrible thing to do to him.

@indigo - I completely agree with your aside about gifted kids not allowed to eclipse siblings. I was the youngest in my family and my dad has terrible anxiety about sibling rivalry... connect the dots...

sanne, you might read some of my first posts on the forum-- we experienced similar dynamics with my DD at this age. Well, at 11 is where I finally hit my breaking point with it, frankly.

I hauled her into two local schools (the middle school wouldn't touch her since she was technically past that point, and the high school intimidated the heck out of her). That was the last real trouble we had with her through high school, truly. She realized that I meant business when I picked up enrollment forms with her in tow.

She knew that if MOM was that serious about shipping her off to be someone else's problem day to day, she had very seriously miscalculated and had better straighten up and fly right.

The underlying problem was that my standards were almost *always* higher than external ones were for her-- I mention this because I was appalled at just how little work was actually required of her, even in AP coursework in high school.

WE made her do what seemed 'right' to us, and eventually we convinced her that our way was, in the end, probably the wiser course of action, since it was far superior as preparation for college and beyond. Word to the wise about that-- schools, especially public schools, may give out A's for work which likely is merely mediocre, and for kids like those here, constitutes an emphatic "phoning it in."

So yes, not doing the work is one thing. But be careful that you aren't trading that for the lesson of easy A's for just showing up. That is a difficult bell to unring as well.


I'd also add that you might explore a behavioral contract with very clear consequences/rewards-- and one of those consequences is "you will attend regular school, and I will not intervene when you experience difficulties due to your own lack of compliance with authority figures." Or maybe you are already past this point of reconsidering a decision to enroll him elsewhere-- but-- maybe he has to EARN back the right to be homeschooled again.

Defiance is a really hard problem when it's tied to other known disability issues. I'm really sorry.

Lastly, I also agree with Val-- you can't sacrifice your own health and life for a child who is basically being a selfish git about this-- a family is an ecosystem, when you get right down to it, and for it to function in sustainable ways, everyone has to meet their particular obligations. This was a line of discussion that has been helpful in dealing with my own ohhh-so-defiant/obstinate child over the years. Not sure if anything here is helpful-- but I definitely get the sense that you are wandering around in the grey space between "I can't" versus "You can't make me."

I realize that this might not be a popular sentiment in a lot of 2e circles, but there does come a point when you have to go with your gut on this, IMO. If you just know that this isn't lack of ability so much as lack of willingness to comply-- end the power struggle. Period. Pick your battles, to be sure-- but when you do, aim to win. Decisively.

That's not to say that such children should be steamrolled or left without any autonomy-- because they have a VERY powerful need for that autonomy, frankly-- just that they have to be both reasonable, cooperative, and unselfish when exercising that autonomy. This, too, is a critical life-lesson. People who are none of those things and insist on their autonomy don't wind up very well off (barring successful sociopaths, I mean). So sit down when you're both calm, lay out some perspective taking-- and listen to HIM, too. Ask questions about the other's perspective, and decide what is rational, what doesn't need rationality (like feelings), and what simply can't BE the way that one of you would like for it to be. Be wise to manipulative tricks, though-- not sure how manipulative your particular child is, but mine is a real doozy in this regard. When she starts with that, I walk away-- I'm not entertaining it.



DD has learned that she is unwise to push me in particular when I tell her "No. NO MORE-- hard boundary, this. It's not open for discussion." I usually have a trump card that she isn't going to like if she persists in behaving like a toddler throwing a tantrum. It's just really hard to follow through because it makes us so sad to deprive her of things we want her to have-- and she knows this, and is happy to press it to her advantage in power struggles with us.

Thank you very, very much. <3

DS10 says "you've been threatening that for years" OMG. he's right. I never thought of it that way.

I'm starting to give away curriculum. If I have it here I'll feel pressured to "use it up". I'm going to keep Great Courses and music stuff.

I'll keep him with his writing tutor and using the math textbook until school starts.

After school starts, I'll give him access to Great Courses (after homework is done) and continue music lessons.

In your situation, I would put him in public school. However, I would allow him to accelerate up to the level of his lowest ability. Any lower, it would just be a punishment. Any higher, he would be treated as a second-class citizen and require extra accomodations from the school and extra assistance from you at home. Don't feel guilty - you have gone above and beyond.

I can commiserate. I don't have health issues, but otherwise have been in a similar boat with my ds11 with everything else you've described.

Regardless of school placement, have you looked into dyscalculia, stealth dyslexia, dysgraphia, and dyspraxia? Not saying your ds has these, but the passive-aggressive behaviors you're having with homeschooling point to the possibility of more than just ADHD. It could be a roadblock or bottleneck situation.

I recently 'discovered' that ds's visual deficits (which ds was born with) are impacting his math skills. Ds11 exploded when he had to enter a formula with a pre-calculus course with edX. He completely panicked. He claimed to have forgotten everything with algebra. I then suggested he go back and review pre-algebra with Khan. He then had trouble with place value. He was trying to figure out place value from reading a number from right to left rather than from right to left, if that makes sense. I then said that ds will have to go back and start from scratch with the basics so we can make sure that he's mastered them.

To this, I'll ask - has your child seen a behavioral optometrist? Does he have converge insufficiency or tracking issues? Visual, attention, language, and math skills go hand and hand, believe it or not.

Take a look at some of these links:
Skills that can be affected by dyscalculia -
https://www.understood.org/en/learn...ills-that-can-be-affected-by-dyscalculia

Visual spatial processing -
https://www.understood.org/en/learn...spatial-processing-what-you-need-to-know

Dyscalculia signs with a middle-schooler - https://www.understood.org/en/learn...hat-youre-seeing-in-your-middle-schooler

Dyscalculia signs with a grade schooler - https://www.understood.org/en/learn...what-youre-seeing-in-your-grade-schooler

Math anxiety vs. dyscalculia - https://www.understood.org/en/learn...xiety-vs-dyscalculia-comparing-the-signs

Math anxiety and math performance -
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4703847/

Just read - day in the life of a teenager with dyscalculia - https://www.understood.org/en/learn...-the-life-of-a-teenager-with-dyscalculia

Is your ds like this?

Also for stealth dyslexia - http://www.davidsongifted.org/Search-Database/entry/A10435