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    #225154 11/13/15 06:24 AM
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    chay Offline OP
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    I'm usually posting about DS9 but now we're trying to sort out DD7. School so far has been easy, she's a compliant kid, teachers love her and life is good. Last year's teacher differentiated for her more than DS9's did and he had an IEP to back it all up.

    We recently tested DD7 so we'd know what we're dealing with. We asked to just do the WISC because we didn't suspect any 2e issues. We sent the report into the school earlier this week and yesterday I had a chat with the resource teacher that left me a little puzzled. We asked for an IEP for her focusing on math which is her biggest complaint. The school's response was "she's not doing the work we're giving her and we don't want to give every kid an IEP so we're going to start differentiating now that we know she needs it". There are so many things wrong with that statement that I don't want to get into right now - that rant can be saved for another day. This is the first time we've heard anything not 100% glowing about her so we're kind of a bit surprised.

    My question today is - DS has a written expression LD. He's done two full rounds of testing to get there. They actually have similar WISC profiles but there isn't as much spread in DD's scores - 2SD for VCI to PSI vs his 4SD+ (his VCI and PRI are higher and his PSI is lower, WMI are very close). I'm assuming the WISC isn't enough to determine anything and we'd have to look at WIAT/CEFI/?? if we eventually go down that road. We're not going to rush out and do anything since she's still young and don't want to waste time/money for an inconclusive result but if the WISC scores were enough to raise red flags then I'll at least bump it up on the radar.

    My first reaction is that the school is just making excuses and/or that she is bored and not interested but I'd rather not miss something because it isn't as obvious as DS's more extreme case. This is the same school/resource teacher that did basically nothing for DS except fill out a form to transfer him to a gifted program in the other school board which has been awesome for him. We are strongly considering transferring DD but we have to prove all tier 1, 2 and 3 interventions have been tried and failed as part of the application process. Parent teacher interviews are next week so I'll get my 10 whole minutes to actually talk to the teacher - yippee.

    So, any thoughts on my ramblings?

    Last edited by chay; 11/13/15 06:26 AM.
    chay #225155 11/13/15 07:21 AM
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    Hi Chay,

    I'll let the more knowledgeable posters chime in regarding when to test for LD issues.

    Are they going to elaborate at all regarding their statement that she isn't doing the work anyway. I believe we're in the same province and I know with recent job action there hasn't been as much communication between teachers and parents as there usually is.

    Are you able to find out what work hasn't been completed before the meeting. I wouldn't be happy if I was ambushed with that information without having anytime to consider the issue before hand. Those interviews go by so quickly that it sometimes feels like you're being blown over with a wall of info and can't get the appropriate questions in. (We had our interviews yesterday!)

    Also I'm angry on your behalf with their response about IEPs. She's entitled to an IEP. Perhaps working towards transferring her to your son's board might be a good idea.

    Wanted to ask, does your school have an ISRC? Can the teacher bring up the issue with them? I don't understand how they came about this decision to differentiate with out having a meeting with the important players involved.


    Last edited by eyreapparent; 11/13/15 07:25 AM.
    chay #225156 11/13/15 08:39 AM
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    chay Offline OP
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    Thanks for the response. I won't be able to get any more elaboration before the PTI. We are in the same province but DD's teachers were in the first group that resolved their contract issues a while ago so that isn't to blame. This school is just a black hole for parent info and always has been (switching boards has really highlighted just how dark it is by comparison, even with DS's teacher on work to rule we still had more contact/info than we've ever had in the other board without job action in place).

    We did talk with DD and she says she always finishes math but doesn't always finish the writing. She said they have a table that you are supposed to go to if you need help with writing but whenever she does she gets sent back to her desk because "there are kids that need it more". One possibility I've thought of is perfectionism - DD really wants the spelling, punctuation, etc to be perfect but maybe there is a real underlying issue there beyond that. With DS setting the bar so low on writing it is really hard to know what "normal" is. We've worked at home on the perfectionism a lot with getting her to just do her best and then correcting it later.

    The IEP response is annoying but I'm willing to play their game for a bit in the hopes of saving my advocating for more pressing issues. Our board's version of an ISRC is that they have 2.5 resource teachers and each grade is assigned one. The person I talked to on the phone is the resource person for her grade (and coincidentally enough was the resource person for DS last year). She was also DS's 2nd grade teacher before moving to resource last year. We have a lot of history with her so it a challenge to avoid getting into an discussion about their version of differentiation which was pretty much useless... I'm also involved with the people at the top of the Spec Ed food chain in our board but I'll keep that ace in my pocket until I really need it wink

    chay #225158 11/13/15 10:11 AM
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    Originally Posted by chay
    School so far has been easy, she's a compliant kid, teachers love her and life is good.

    This sounds good... honestly, if this was the sum of everything, I'd not worry for one second about her WISC scores.

    Re your dd's complaint about "focusing on math" - have you asked for specifics from your dd - what does she mean re focusing - is it hard for her to keep her brain focused on it, does she find it too easy, where does she do math in class, what time of day, etc.

    Quote
    We asked for an IEP for her focusing on math which is her biggest complaint. The school's response was "she's not doing the work we're giving her and we don't want to give every kid an IEP so we're going to start differentiating now that we know she needs it". There are so many things wrong with that statement

    There's another way to look at this (and I may be completely off here, only having the background and context here in the post.. so if I am, just ignore my random thoughts!). From the school's perspective, how *could* they give every student an IEP? That would be the ideal solution for everyone - an individualized education plan, but the reality is IEPs take staff time both in instruction and in meetings etc. There just isn't enough time in the day to develop a working IEP for every student. The teachers are saying they will start differentiating, based on the test scores you've shared - that sounds like a positive move. We hear far too often on this board about teachers *not* making any changes even when presented with evidence of high ability. Would it have been better if they'd tried this before receiving test scores? Of course - but maybe they weren't seeing what you see as a parent.

    It sounds like you have more of a proactive school district (or province) re gifted policy than we have in the part of the US I live in. I am not familiar with Canadian policy, but here the path leading to an IEP starts with first addressing the issue in the classroom with the regular teacher making a modification/accommodation as needed that's doable. Your teachers are going to try differentiation - that's a good first step. Next (here) would come RTI (with the levels of Tiers). If a student is still struggling after processing through RTI, then an IEP would be considered. We do skip through RTI for some students - but that's when there's a clear need that can't be addressed in the classroom or RTI.

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    This is the first time we've heard anything not 100% glowing about her so we're kind of a bit surprised.

    It might not be 100% glowing, but what you've heard is she doesn't finish her math. Maybe it hasn't been mentioned previously because she clearly understands it, therefore her teacher wasn't worried about her not finishing it?

    Quote
    They actually have similar WISC profiles but there isn't as much spread in DD's scores - 2SD for VCI to PSI vs his 4SD+ (his VCI and PRI are higher and his PSI is lower, WMI are very close). I'm assuming the WISC isn't enough to determine anything and we'd have to look at WIAT/CEFI/??

    In addition to other tests, you'd want to look first at her academic work. Does it look like she has challenges? It doesn't seem to be the case from what you've written. aeh can give you much better advice on the actual scores.

    Best wishes,

    polarbear

    chay #225161 11/13/15 11:12 AM
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    There is a paper somewhere stating that it is normal for gifted students to have a big spread between their processing speed score and other scores. I think the average in that study for gifted students for processing speed was around the 110 range. It doesn't necessarily indicate a disability. DD was more like 94 for processing speed which was a 50-60 point gap from her GAI, and it was very evident in her daily work.

    For writing there are written expression/fluency probes that you could give her at home, with published norms, just to see somewhat informally if she is operating at grade level on your own. Basically you give her a random starter phrase or sentence, she gets 1 min. to think and 3 minutues to write and you add up the words she wrote. Then there are norms stating how students in each grade perform. This is all online. Search for "CBM written expression (or fluency) probes and norms." DD was always about 2 years behind whenever I did this. I brought her writing probes to the school for a 504 meeting and basically just got blank stares. The districts that we have dealt with don't seem to understand how to evaluate progress with written expression (at ALL).

    chay #225164 11/13/15 12:02 PM
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    Reading through the response from polarbear and responding as I go.

    I should explain more what I mean about focusing on math - we basically wanted an IEP that spelled out modifications for math to be more advanced/challenging since that is DD's main complaint. Simple stuff like adding digits onto addition problems to make them a bit more interesting, etc. In a perfect world I'd ask for more but I know that isn't going to happen so I'll take whatever they are willing to do.

    In (ETA our province in) Canada they are legally have to provide an IEP for gifted students. Our board's criteria for gifted is roughly speaking 96%ile (there's more fine print to it but it gives an idea). To be honest I wouldn't care too much if all of the teachers actually differentiated like the board believes they do but quite frankly the majority don't. We got lucky last year with her and got the one teacher that did (even without an IEP) but then it all gets forgotten when September rolls around when there is nothing documenting it. We had an IEP for 3 years for DS in that school and the first two they did nothing. The 3rd year they gave him the workbook for the next grade's math and sent him off to teach himself. I'm not expecting them to do much. I do appreciate that not EVERY kid needs an IEP but how many kids do they have with a 99.8%ile GAI that the teacher somehow didn't realize needed differentiation?

    You are right that they might not have mentioned it previously because she clearly understands it, therefore her teacher wasn't worried about her not finishing it? Honestly based on my experience with the school I just feel like it is yet another excuse to not do anything for gifted kids unless they do everything perfectly first. With DS it was his LD - they wouldn't do anything for gifted until he was writing at grade level without accommodations for example. From what I've seen of her academic work I have yet to see a problem.

    Anyway - I don't mean to come off as jumping on your thoughtful post - I do appreciate it. I'm just ticked at the school's handling of the last 3 years and thought that she would be easier so that might be coming out in my posts (sorry).

    blackcat - thanks for the CBM written expression reference. I'll have to try that out on the weekend.

    Last edited by chay; 11/13/15 01:00 PM. Reason: adding the province part to my statement about legally having to provide IEP's
    chay #225182 11/13/15 08:01 PM
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    Link to a number of CBM probes for reading, writing, and math fluency. The two sets of norms are not exactly the same, but either will still give you some decent ballpark figures. I think the Vanderbilt numbers might have the edge in research support:

    http://www.interventioncentral.org/curriculum-based-measurement-reading-math-assesment-tests

    https://my.vanderbilt.edu/specialeducationinduction/files/2013/07/IA.Writing-CBM.pdf

    If you're concerned about a learning challenge of some kind, you will minimally need some academic achievement data (WIAT, KTEA, or WJ), probably some screening for executive functions, such as rating scales like the BASC, BRIEF, or CEFI, and possibly other, more focused, testing to explore specific hypotheses (TOWL for written expression, CELF or OWLS for language impairment, OT evals for fine motor, etc.).

    And I agree that clearly you need elaboration on what it means for her to be "not doing the work we're giving her". We had a similar issue when our #1 was almost this age, placed in fifth grade math, and finding it so easy that in-class independent work time was spent chatting, helping other people with their math, and creating amusing little activities of one's own to do, none of which were conducive to timely completion of assignments. After a year of advocacy, it was the (same) teacher who came to us, and asked to move #1 from sixth grade math to pre-algebra. It just took the teacher that long to figure out that the lackadaisical work completion was a symptom of instructional underplacement, rather than excessive or adequate challenge.


    ...pronounced like the long vowel and first letter of the alphabet...
    aeh #225188 11/14/15 06:51 AM
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    chay Offline OP
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    Thanks aeh!

    chay #225352 11/21/15 12:51 PM
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    Update for anyone that is curious.

    Had our 10 minutes with her teachers earlier this week and magically all of her problems were fixed in the week between talking to the resource teacher and the interview. Her teachers went on and on about how she was now finishing all of her work and everything was perfect now. They showed me the folder of more advanced math that had been put together for her (and the 5 other mathematicians that also need extra). They even went out of their way to point out that it had 2 digit math in it and I managed to keep a straight face and thank them. I suspect it won't really be enough to appease DD but at least they are trying something. They are willing to do up an IEP in the new year.

    Having one 2e kid is enough to make one paranoid smile Thanks for the info, hopefully I'll be able to avoid using it a little while longer.


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