Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion What would you ask Carol Dweck?

The extrapolation was the school's, and they used "Mindset"'s language in their letter explaining the change.

I noticed this too, and thought it could make an interesting basis for further research study.

It would seem that since no mindset preference was suggested or imprinted on them by the neutral compliment, their original mindset (which they may be unaware of) would have been left intact, without manipulation. Therefore a mix of beliefs.

Possibly this was done and not reported on, but it fascinates me:
1) those who may originally lean toward fixed mindset
1a) assigned to the fixed mindset group, given the compliment on score and being smart
1b) assigned to the growth mindset group, given the compliment on score and effort
1c) assigned to the control group, given the compliment and no mindset manipulation

2) those who may originally lean toward growth mindset
2a) assigned to the fixed mindset group, given the compliment on score and being smart
2b) assigned to the growth mindset group, given the compliment on score and effort
2c) assigned to the control group, given the compliment and no mindset manipulation

3) those who may originally have no discernible mindset preference or belief
3a) assigned to the fixed mindset group, given the compliment on score and being smart
3b) assigned to the growth mindset group, given the compliment on score and effort
3c) assigned to the control group, given the compliment and no mindset manipulation

I would be curious to see the extent to which the mindsets were changed by the suggestion/manipulation.

After the research study, I would hope that all students assigned to the "fixed" mindset group received counseling and coaching in developing a "growth" mindset (and were not left to languish with a set of fixed mindset beliefs). Similarly, I hope those in the neutral control group also were taught about the advantages of developing a "growth" mindset.

Hi Indigo - yes that works as a source for me. Also some similar comments I've seen in interviews with her. I'll be honest and say that her position here simply offends me. Why on earth deny a child "praise they have earned" (her words)? It seems cruel to me. Couldn't we at least say "too easy FOR YOU" so the child can feel positive about her abilities?

Let's play it out in a realistic classroom setting: Gifted student is an outlier who often feels disconnected. Class is given a math worksheet. Gifted student completes the worksheet quickly and hands it in. No praise. Instead, "Whoops, I guess that was too easy. . . . Let's do something you can really learn from!" Gifted child returns to desk (maybe with a harder worksheet, but probably not). Five minutes later, Child 2 turns in the worksheet with only a couple errors. Teacher applauds child - "Wow, great effort! I can tell you really studied last night! You see - I told you you could do it!" Child 2 is glowing. Gifted child is now ANGRY and feels even more isolated and defensive. Gifted child makes a smart-ass remark to teacher 10 minutes later and gets sent to the office.

Gifted child is not developing a growth mindset. Gifted child is only learning that her abilities should be suppressed so she can get some praise, too, sometimes. Child 2 is probably developing a growth mindset - but at the expense of the gifted child. "Teacher praised ME, not HER. And she thinks she's so smart ...."

My point is this - having an ability is a good and valuable thing. But in any real world application (other than one on one tutoring), the message to a gifted child is that her ability is NOT good and valuable. ALL the kids HEAR this stuff. They learn from it. And what they are learning is that the gifted child's abilities are not valuable; the gifted child is weird and unworthy of praise.

I don't disagree with Dweck's theory in principal. I constantly try to apply it in my one on one time with DS. I want him to learn that trying hard, to do ever harder things, is not only good - it's where the fun is. Even when you haven't gotten it yet! It's where all the excitement starts.

But, application of Dweck's ideas in a classroom setting is inherently demeaning to gifted children, and degrading to their gifts. It hurts my insides to think how a gifted child ends up feeling in the above scenario. And, I just don't see any way around it other than a purely differentiated curriculum. And we all know that is not feasible.

So anyway, that's what bugs me about her mindset stuff. Honestly, I feel queasy imagining this scenario playing out, day after day. The damage it does to a little kid who just wants to hear nice words from Teacher, just like everybody else.

I would have to assume that in Dweck's world the gifted child in suevv's example would be given appropriate work the next day and have a chance to be "Child 2" and receive praise. The problem as we all know (and stated above), is that that isn't usually the case. It all boils down to - how do you ensure that ALL kids have the appropriate work so that they are able to develop a growth mindset?

I think that until they've tried to actually differentiate for an HG+ kid in a normal classroom they honestly think that it can be done and they all drink the differentiation kool-aid. In our case they photocopy a worksheet one grade level ahead, send the kid off to the corner to teach it to themselves and then pat themselves on the back for their amazing differentiation. That isn't even close to enough for these kids. To be totally honest the huge majority of elementary teachers simple don't have the math background to be able to do much else. They simply follow the text book/curriculum and stay one lesson ahead of the kids. They lack the bigger picture or the depth themselves to be able to branch out and do something a little different. What elementary teacher has a good enough grasp of math 3, 4 or more years ahead to teach it and yet that is what some of these kids need. What elementary teacher has enough of a math background to know some things that AREN'T in the curriculum that could provide some useful tangents? Mastered addition and subtraction? Let's try that in binary, now octal, now hex, now whatever base you want to make up. That just isn't going to happen.

Exactly.

This passage on page 179 and the passage on pages 235-236 about making homework "more fun and challenging" when a child is bored hint at acknowledging that a child does not have appropriate curriculum and pacing, placement at their zone of proximal development, and challenge. However there is no clear statement or push for the child to have access to such opportunity. Possibly Dr. Dweck saw this as reaching the outer edge of her area of expertise and/or responsibility of reporting the research findings... however when attempting to implement the research findings in the classroom, this may be seen as a flaw, shortcoming, or incompleteness in the work, something to be addressed by clarification on the research studies conducted and compiled for the book and/or for gently probing further/future research spawned by release of the book.

Combining thoughts from other posts upthread, I would formulate questions for Carol Dweck along the lines of:
1) whether the students in the studies were working in their ZPD, as praising effort is genuine in this context
2) what are the implications for classroom application regarding student placement and effort-praiseworthy work? (Possibly having children in flexible cluster groups by readiness and ability in each subject, across "grade levels" and without regard to age, so that each child is receiving curriculum and instruction at their ZPD? Without this in place, possibly the growth mindset in the classroom becomes another means to close achievement gaps and excellence gaps by capping the growth of the top students. This contrasts with thoughts in a post upthread, referencing material on other pages of the book, which seemed to indicate that gaps would be closed by bringing up students at the bottom, not by capping students at the top.)
3) the IQ ranges of the subjects in the studies, and whether the effects of fixed vs. growth mindset were different at various IQ ranges
4) whether note was taken of a student's original mindset prior to the study, as in the study the mindset was manipulated by compliments on being smart or compliments on effort
5) whether there was a correlation between the original mindset of a subject and the subject's past accomplishment/achievement level and/or IQ
6) if there is new research spawned by her book, and what the central questions are. On the other hand, I might ask if research has been completed since 2007 which might re-emphasize certain points in mindset... call other earlier research into question... refine any points... etc.
7) Are there specific schools which have implemented a policy of encouraging growth mindset, and what do the results show? Among these results, what do the results show for the gifted? Similarly, is there reader mail which indicates that families have dedicated themselves to a growth mindset, and achieved positive results (anecdotal evidence)?

This has been a lot to think about, and connect ideas between. Great thread, NotherBen.

For anyone who has not read the book mindset, I do recommend it. It is based on years of research. Not that I agree with every idea/application, but on balance found a number of ideas to be useful. Beyond implications for children's classroom learning, there are lifelong applications of this motivational theory, including "Mindsets in love (or not)."

Some may say that "being reminded you are smart" and having a "fundamental belief in your abilities" would include not only a belief in one's innate intelligence, but also a belief in embracing challenges, persistence in the face of setbacks, effort as a positive path, interest in learning from feedback as well as from mistakes, and reaching ever-higher levels of achievement, in a manner which is genuine and emotionally satisfying.

Well said, chay.

So, perhaps schools following the growth mindset philosophy provide settings where all students have to work, all the time. That seems to be how our school is applying it, at least in some subject areas.

I'm sorry, I'm not understanding the phrase about "all students have to work, all the time". Might you try putting this into other words to help me understand? Thnx.

Meanwhile to help you see what I don't understand about "work all the time"...
- Hopefully kids get recess, breaks, etc!
- Hopefully no demoralizing, wheel-spinning "busy work"
- Hopefully kids are not regularly working to tutor others while waiting for the class to "catch up"
- Hopefully kids are learning new things, while being flexible cluster grouped with others who are receiving the same curriculum and instruction at their ZPD... working at their challenge level, an effort-praiseworthy level, and growing their brains

What I mean by "work all the time" is exactly what you hope.

I would want to ask how to encourage an older (say, teenaged) student who may have been in a fixed mindset for years, largely because it has been taught. Their mindset won't change quickly. Because it's fixed.

I was about to say "don't get me started on recess", but that is an excellent idea. I would think that Growth Mindset would encourage children, well, anyone, to engage in free recreation with people at different levels of development or interest, to observe and participate in growth (oh, and to have fun!). I wonder if Dr Dweck would agree? Hmm, that's a question to formulate.

For helping a teen remove what has been learned, depending on the kid, I might offer them the book asking their views on the ideas presented... how solid they seem, how they might seem to apply to his school, etc (similar to asking us in a more open-ended way for questions for the author). The book has lots of sports stories, some bully stories, and some corporate stories from the news... which might spark interest in a teen.

Other than that, role modeling seems to be key. Especially re-framing "failure" as "not YET" and a valuable opportunity to learn.

Some key areas of the book, relevant to fostering a "growth" mindset may include:
Book page 32 - Mindsets Change the Meaning of Failure
Book page 39 - Mindsets Change the Meaning of Effort
Book chapter 7: Parents, Teachers, and Coaches: Where do mindsets come from?
Book chapter 8: Changing Mindsets (especially pages 234-236, Changing your child's mindset EXCEPT for the two sentences about homework)