Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy "I don't like school."

Our second grader is currently at a charter that allows students to move up or down according to ability. He is in third grade reading (because of his poorer writing skills, though he easily reads at a sixth grade level), and a fourth grade math level.

Since school began, he's been complaining he doesn't "like school". When we ask for specifics, he gives generalities like, "I don't like to work."

We've had conversations with him about how work equals survival; as in, "If you don't work, you don't eat."

He understands laziness is not the way to the life he wants, so his assertion that not liking to work isn't quite correct. But, we are having a hard time teasing out of him exactly what about the work at school he doesn't like...other than writing his spelling words three times each, that is!

I've read that a child this age should "love" school; anything less is a "red flag" that should be addressed.

So, we have a p-t conference soon and want to bring this up. Would someone please tell me what they have encountered in a similar situation when they told their child's teacher that their child didn't "like school"?

I actually get more out of DD6 when I ask her to explain what she does like about school. When she is saying she doesn't like school she can't figure out a way to explain it either, but when asked what she does like I have been able to narrow the options down as to what the real problem is.
For example, the last time she was complaining about school we went through a list of people/subjects she has and asked if she liked each one, and if yes how much. (1 = they are ok, don't really like or dislike, up to 5 = love them) When I asked her about her teacher she scored low, so I asked her to explain what parts of the teacher were making the score low and what parts would she score higher on. It was very interesting because it basically came down to 2 little things that the teacher does that bother DD. We talked about why the teacher would do those things and how DD could better deal with them and since then we have rarely heard she doesn't like school.

You could also try asking if his dislike for school is like his dislike for a food he hates or if it is like the dislike of having to go food shopping with you, or some other things that he really doesn't like and things that just annoy him because they are boring.

Good luck. We are currently in a "good school" phase, but could fall back to where you are any day.

I too am having the same issue with my 9 year old and his answer is always "its boring". Parenting a gifted child can surely be frustrating

My DS wasn't saying he didn't like school, but I was having trouble getting him to say anything substantive about his day. One rather silly thing that worked: I had been asking him things like "what was the most fun thing you did today?", but then we turned it into a game. He had to think of an adjective (fun, hard, boring, interesting, annoying...), call it X, and then think of the most X thing that had happened that day. He described the thing, and I could ask questions about what happened, but not about how he felt about it. I had to guess what X he was thinking. Interestingly to me, this wasn't always easy! And it was very informative.

Agree totally with above suggestions for trying to get at the problem. One thought: perhaps see if the nature of the work has changed? Two things that particularly affected our DCs:

(1) In grade 1, the switch from mostly choosing how to spend all their time, to being told what to do, all the time.

(2) In grade 2, being given tons of worksheets - lots of repetitious drill in math, grammar, etc. For this kid with writing issues, so much make-work wasn't just boring, it actually caused major mental health issues.

You can't help (1), but situations like (2) can be easily fixed - and in our case had huge impact when it was. While many kids would rather be playing or doing something more interesting, at this age I suspect they are rarely lazy, and usually like to please the teacher. So there may be something in the *changed* nature of the work or approach that is causing problems, rather than a general unwillingness to work.

As you mentioned writing issues, could there be major increases in writing expectations that are suddenly flinging your DS from years in the "way too easy" over to the "I can't do this" zone? Been there too...

Oh - I know this frustration all too well! Conversations I've had with DS6:

me: How was school today?
DS: good
me: What was good? Did you do something you enjoyed?
DS: everything?
me: Anything you didn't like about school?
DS: Yes. Everything.
me: (in my head) Argh!

I get a lot more info asking funny, unexpected questions. Someone sent me this list once:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/liz-e...m-so-how-was-school-today_b_5738338.html

Asking the one about who he'd switch seats with in class gave me a lot of info about how he sees the other kids, how one kid distracted him by being noisy, etc.

Also, little things can really seem to throw him off. He told me his least favorite part of school was 1st break (they get two 'nutrition' breaks), and this was because the student lunch monitors were breaking a rule about not writing on the white board. Apparently this made him feel 'weird'. He still feels 'weird' about it, even though they don't do this anymore.

This sounds like a great game. I'm going to try it with dd11 to see if I can make any progress beyond "Everything was good" or "We just did the usual stuff." I was using the Huffington questions until dd told me that she knew it came from an online article about getting your child to talk. End of discussion.

Our DS's school is not enclosed - visualize motel rooms rather than hotel rooms. So one thing I do is peek in the windows every day to see if I can spot something specific to ask about. "What was that long chart on the wall with tick marks all about?" He'll usually explain what was going on and occasionally this will lead to a broader discussion of school, friends, etc.

I have to be well-prepared for what I hear though. Sometimes I hear pleasant things about lunch with his best friend (yay!). But sometimes .... At base he has a visceral rage at how boring school is. When let loose, he will need some time to work through how "stupid and boring" school is, how his teacher will argue with him about facts when he knows he is right (this happens regularly), how he's not allowed to check non-fiction books out of the library, and on and on.

I think it helps him to let it out. We all need to vent about our jobs sometimes, right? But it's terrifying to see sometimes how much it seems physically painful for him.

All the time he says, "Mom, I wish I could just go to graduate school." I'm not sure he really even knows what graduate school is, but somehow he has sussed out the relative independence that can come with it.

So anyway - maybe peek in the classroom from time to time to find something to ask about? Opens the door for us.

Sue

I'm going to try ColinsMums' game, too! Right now I do what was good/not good/silly etc just to loosen her tongue. But she'll love that!

I recently played this game with our son and it worked like a charm! He opened up quite a bit and it led to discussion on ways to make school more "fun".
Thanks so much for the idea.

It's beginning to emerge that the reason DS doesn't like school is the pace of instruction. Simple tedium.

Acceleration is not enough.

I tried this with my DD10. She told me that she couldn't remember feeling anything all day, and "this doesn't seem like a very fun game, Mom."

Last year my 3rd grade DD was in an 8th grade reading comprehension group. At first she was just oh so happy to be there but after a while the enthusiasm started to fade. It took until almost the end of the year to get her to admit that the pace was "painfully slow." This year the school acknowledged "DD will always be out in front of those kids" so instead of attending the higher level class every day she goes twice a week and spends the other 3 days doing more in depth research projects on topics raised in the readings.

Yeah - sometimes acceleration isn't enough. If they recognize his need for acceleration, though, maybe they will be open to some other creative solutions like we worked out for my DD.

Or, it may be enough, but not for long.

My DD9 was skipped into 4th grade last year, and with full GT services, it was a good fit. One year later, we're hearing almost daily: "I don't learn anything in school." Last night, DD asked us to plan a structured after-schooling program, so she can learn something.

I told everyone at DS7's IEP meeting that he says he doesn't like school and no one seemed that concerned. One person said it sounds like a typical boy thing. I said "maybe, but if I pulled him out right now and said 'we're done with this school' he would happily pack up his stuff and never look back." I know the reason why he doesn't like school is because he finds most of the other kids annoying and the work to be a waste of time and not interesting. But it's hard to say that without insulting the teacher. I think DS would be unenthusiastic going just about anywhere unless he could study/do what he wants all day long. So there's probably no school that would make him completely happy, although I think he has a point in that probably 50-75 percent of what he is "learning" is at the wrong level and a waste for him. Right now the special ed teacher (of all people, since they don't work with gifted kids here) is looking into pulling him out for math and having him work at his own pace in her room. He already tested/passed out of second grade math so no one can really put up a big fight about it.

We recently had the pleasure of learning from the principal that DS announced to a group of benefactors to the school that said school couldn't teach him anything. When we quizzed him on it later (because it seemed a strange way for him to say something like that), we discovered a teacher at the table embellished the statement. He had been placed on the spot by the group when they asked what he was learning. He told us he said he only learns about 40% of the time. His "40%" comment rang as the truth. So why would this teacher report to the principal our child said the school can't teach him anything? I suspect this teacher doesn't like our child and wanted to take him down a peg.

Homeschooling is looking better and better.

DH and I have surmised the reason for a deadpan response when this sort of thing is mentioned is because they would actually have to do something about it if it's acknowledged in any way that there's a problem. We're discovering they like to turn the tables and blame the parent or child.


He's going to be happy about that! What a good solution.

We've learned not to talk about DD's happiness or lack thereof, because they really, really don't care... even when you're trying to explain how the bad fit is causing emotional trauma, which is a whole other level of "not happy."

And so it goes round and round...

"Your child is not happy? Our job is to teach children, not to make them happy."

"Okay, well, she's not learning anything. Could you maybe teach her something new?"

"Your DD is making straight As. What are you complaining about?"

AAARRRGGGHHH

Sounds really familiar - wait, they said the same thing at my DS's school too!

I can relate to the straight A's comments. The teachers simply do not see the problem when the grades are stellar. This is when I offer to do the work for them to provide differenciated work in order to show that my child needs to learn to work hard, not just get good grades. (I have only had varying success...)

However, I have had significant success with describing what makes DC happy or not with school work. Especially with lower elementary school teachers, I have found they really respond to problems with a child avoiding going to school, etc.

However, you might approach it another way, such as...
DC was so happy when you sent home such and so super hard word problems and was joyful while continuing the activity even after they got home.

Showing a positive experience with work that you know is at an appropriate level might help the teacher see the light, so to speak.

Good luck! Hang in there! It can be so draining have to advocate all the time.

I'm coming back to this post because DS' feelings about school haven't changed.

Deciding to sit in and watch him go through his day, I went to his school and observed for two entire days. I took notes hoping to see a pattern emerge that would give us a hint as to the problem. Nothing has surfaced. My and my husband's opinion about the teacher haven't changed; we think she's doing well. The work seems appropriate for him, and the environment is also satisfactory. The kids are all well-behaved and no bullying is going on that I could detect.

The one thing I did notice during my time there is he seems to be somewhat isolating himself on the playground. He doesn't seem inclined to automatically play what everyone else wants to. Instead, he is okay with going off and doing his own thing. If some other child joins him, he's happy to have them, but otherwise doesn't appear to make much effort to invite interaction. I was dismayed to see him acting like this and asked the teacher if he does it all the time. She said his best friend was out sick and that may account for it. I think DS is a more one-on-one type of kid if that makes sense. He's not a sporty type and most other boys and some girls are, so perhaps that is also playing into his choice of activity during recesses.
Ironically, recess is his favorite part of the day outside of math.

DS recently said to me, "No one is helping me with not liking school." I think he's feeling unheard because we've been unable to make things different. Nothing has changed at school or home since I first posted, btw.

Thinking we needed to bring this up to the teacher in more depth, my husband spoke with her about this again last night after PTC and she seemed concerned. Her prior reaction was one of surprise, but no conversation was really able to happen at that time since it was during school. In the course of conversation, she offered to try to tease out of DS what is bothering him. I hope she can. My husband and I are stuck on what to do.

Meanwhile, I've purchased a journal for him in the hope he will sort out exactly what is bothering him through the comfort of writing down his feelings and thoughts. Other than that, I'm out of ideas.

Did you discuss this specifically with your DS when he said that no one was helping him (ask him about the work)? Maybe, he is just satisfied with the work content and not really enthused about it because he is capable of much more? Could that be the issue?

As for the recess - it is fine to go off alone and play by himself if he wants to because he may be trying to decompress and may need that alone time away from the noise and movement and busyness of the other kids.

Based on your earlier posts, I am wondering if it is possible that the "I don't like school" comments are an attempt to get you or your husband to homeschool him?

You might try questions such as "what would make school a place you'd like? How would you change it to fit you better? What would a great school day be like for you?"

If he's an introvert and doesn't seem unhappy about the playground situation, that's probably not the issue. (There's an example almost identical to the one you describe in Susan Cain's book, "Quiet.")

Earlier (upthread) you mentioned having discussed school with your ds and he said that the issue was the pace of instruction:


Has anything changed at school since that discussion? Has he been further challenged or is he still at the same place?



This could simply be the behavior of a child who prefers to hang with his best friend and the friend is out sick... or it could be a child who is unhappy. Social isolation on the playground was happening to my ds at the same age - and it didn't look troubling to any of his teachers, he had a best friend, and he did play with kids when they approached him - but he was also spending a lot of time alone or relatively isolated on the playground. Once we switched him to a school where his educational needs were better met, he was all of a sudden back in the thick of things socially, which is really where his personality lies - the hanging with one or two friends and not joining in with the group at his previous school wasn't because he didn't like sports or wasn't a group type of personality, it was because he was spending the day frustrated and upset with school.


What have you tried to do to make a change? Although we've battled against brick walls many times in our kids' school careers, one thing that we've done is to share with our kids what we as parents have done to help make the situation different/better. It doesn't always work, and that's tough, and that's a part of life - but we've come through with our kids learning something really important - we (parents) believe in them and we stick up for them. Our kids see that we can't change the world every time, but they see that we always have their back. It's also helped them learn how to advocate for themselves.


The teacher is going to be paying attention; listen to what she has to say and see if it makes sense. Try talking to your ds again.


The journal is a great idea, but I'd try to also consider that he might not actually *know* what's bothering him about school, and he may need to depend on you to help figure it out.

I hope you're able to get to the bottom of it and find a way to change whatever is up -

Best wishes,

polarbear

Some random thoughts... but one thing you mentioned earlier was that his reading level was lower due to writing skills - and you mentioned earlier too that the issue seemed to be tedium. It is probably not related but the more interesting materials are going to be in the higher levels.

Also, does he tend to be one of those kids where even if most of the day was good, if there was one bad moment, it dominates his feelings about school that day?

Last random thought - although the kids are well behaved, do you think he feels there a disconnect between him and the other kids - or like he feels like he is a misfit even though he can interact appropriately with the other kids? We saw major issues with DS even at age 3.5, where every time we watched him in daycare, he seemed to have a blast playing with the other kids, but he would come home and complain how he hated daycare - when we moved him to a gifted class at 4 (another school), all of a sudden, he loved his new friends and the environment. He found a group of kids he could relate to, and talk to - and yet if we watched him with his age peers (at his daycare), you would never know he was feeling like a misfit because he knew how to blend in with his age peers.

You've received great advice above. I'll just add that reading books about similar situations can provide bibliotherapy, helping a child see their situation within the pages of a book they are reading. Kids may find circumstances which parallel their own life and develop the specialized vocabulary to describe nuanced feelings.

Gifted Kids' Survival Guide for gifted kids under age 10 is one idea.

Hoagies Gifted Education Page has a great reading list.

Some of my best friends are books is a helpful guide.

I am also wondering about the pace of instruction, since that was an issue earlier. Did that change? Has he grown apathetic about it all? My son got apathetic and began to disengage very quickly- within just a few months.

So many good questions that are helping to make this whole thing come into focus for me! I'm going to answer the ones I think will make the situation more clear for everyone. I'm open to ideas to ask the teacher about to make the working part of his day more tolerable.


I did ask for specifics, in fact. He is having a hard time with exactly what is bothering him, but I sorted out that the spelling words are too easy (I knew this) and having to write them three times each on Mondays is, in his words, "wasting my time". I intend to ask he be tested out of third grade level words at least, and moved into the fourth. Hopefully, those are difficult enough that he will be challenged. Also since he only needs three or four tries at a word to learn how it's spelled, I'm going to ask he only have to write the word once to "learn" it or possibly ditch the writing part altogether and have him spell the word to the teacher privately.


His teacher asked my husband if we had discussed homeschooling with him, actually. He said we had and she suggested he was possibly saying he doesn't like school because he may have some thought that homeschooling would be more like his weekends. In other words, lots of fun time and no work like the school is asking him to do. DH assured her that I was very structured and he was under no illusion that he'd be playing his day away. I had made sure DS knew the good and bad of a choice to homeschool him. One major downside for him is no recess with the kids. I told him he would likely not see them again if we homeschooled. He also knows he'd miss out on the fun things the school does like Missoula Children's Theater and field trips, potluck lunches and last day picnic/carnival.


I read this suggestion and tried it out on him. He said if the entire day was only math and snack and lunch and recess! Of course, he knows that's not possible so when I pressed him, he came back to spelling and his phonics worksheets being a waste of his time. The questions you suggested really helped clarify for me something needs done about those two subjects-even though the school won't allow a full skip to fourth grade reading. Thanks for the book recommendation. I'll look it up.


Bingo! This is him. He's a glass-half-empty type (gets it from me). Because he seems to consistently come back to "I don't like school" comments regardless of if he says the day went well, I know this issue is more than his natural outlook on things.



He went through a bout of this in Kindergarten. I recall him crying that the kids didn't understand him. Now that he's in a school that has a mixed grade class environment (he's in the 1st-3rd room), I haven't heard him say that again. He's also interacting with the 4th-8th graders during the day, and enjoys conversations with them. In fact, I was at the school to speak with the principal (who also teaches the 7th-8th grade) and a couple of the girls commented on how smart DS was and how he was soo cute. He's well-liked, so I'm not thinking this is the problem. I think he's possibly less inclined to be a "joiner" in things unless he really wants to play.


I'm adding these to my list! Thanks, indigo.


I can't say how much it helps my husband and me to have this board's parents to consult. We have joined a local group for gifted kids, but haven't found it to be very helpful, since it's mostly focused upon politics within our state regarding gifted education, and there's few opportunities for personal interaction.

While gifted kids often thrive in a mixed-age classroom, this tends to be especially true when they are at the young end of the age ranges. Being at the older end of the age ranges may provide no intellectual peers... this may rectify itself next year when he is the younger end of the 4th-8th grade group. However waiting until next year may be a l-o-n-g time to a child... plenty of time to become disengaged and under-achieving. It is great that you are looking at ways to help him through the remainder of this school year, with sufficient challenge and support.

Slightly different take to this. But once it looks like you have done due diligence and made sure that there bullying going on, the teacher is a good fit, and the material is mostly appropriate. Perhaps instead you should work with him on his mental perspective towards school rather than looking deeper for something else 'wrong'. I am sure the material or assignments are not perfect and parts of it are boring. That is life. I tell my kids that school isn't necessarily fun. No one is going to make all aspects of school thrilling and exciting all of the time. It's your job as a kid to go to school and learn. And that when you get to be an adult most jobs include tasks that individuals don't enjoy and find boring.
My question would be why does he feel that others should 'fix' all his problems and why does he equate that with not feeling heard? I know he is still a kid but your son is old enough to take ownership of his dislike of school and to learn that mom & dad can't fix everything. Particularly when it comes to feelings. Sometimes in a situation all we as parents can do is listen, and acknowledge a child's feelings.

I'm really having a hard time explaining what I mean. But basically I don't expect it's my job to make sure my children are always happy. My son only tolerated school in junior high. People would ask if he liked school and my stock answer was that he enjoyed "math & band" and honestly if he hadn't liked those two subjects I don't know if I could have gotten him to school.

I'd make a distinction on a case-by-case basis between things that need to be put up with, and things that should be changed.

A child in public school is entitled to an "appropriate" education. Now, the tricky thing is getting to agreement on "appropriate"-- but if the child is not being educated reasonably close to his level, that IS a concern, and IMO should be addressed by the adults, in consultation with the child.

If the child is unhappy because he doesn't feel like doing school and would rather play video games, well, that's a "suck it up" situation. Very different story.

And I do know this, and I can't tell the difference here because I don't know the situation intimately. But it sounds as if the parent has been looking to see if he is getting an "appropriate" education. And she is looking for something different. Plus a kid doesn't have to want to spend all their time playing video games to not like school. Perhaps they just don't like the spelling work that is hard for them, but does enjoy other aspects of school. There is gray area here.. it's not all black and white.

I also see a difference between "you have to suck it up" and you aren't always going to like school.

To clarify, DS is 8 and in second grade. He's in the third grade reading group and fourth grade math.

You're right about it being a long time before he's in the 4th-6th room. (7th & 8th are in another.) I've read that things really come to a head right around third grade for kids whose needs aren't being met, and underachievement or disengagement will have set in by then. So, we are really looking for as close to a perfect fit as possible right now.

Oh, I agree with you! We have had many conversations about how much of work in life is something done because it has to be done, not because one likes it. He's not under any illusion his life at school should be all interesting, but I think he expects more than what he's getting out of it.


He really hasn't asked that all his problems be fixed, and we have said we are sorry he doesn't like school right now. However, we have told him we are working with the teacher to make his day more tolerable. I don't see how advocating for a better fit will make him think we will fix all his problems in school and by intimation, life. He has asked the teacher to make some changes to his assignments but without success. I believe we need to advocate for him at this point.

I still really resent having my time wasted. It seems to be a personality trait. Most people I have worked with say that the boss is paying for their time so it his his to waste. I say the boss is paying for my output from a certain period of time and the wasted time will never be there again. Now I am in my 40's I am a bit more relaxed but when I was at school I found it unbearable.