Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Insight into "Tantrums"

Dd 9 is our youngest child. All of her older half-siblings are probably gifted at some level, but she is our most extreme. We are homeschooling her as that is our only real option.

We had her tested 3 years ago, and she missed Davidson by a hair. Although she was uncooperative with the tester, we really haven't seen the need to re-evaluate. We may do Explore this year as our yearly test, just for another angle.

At the time of the test, the Neuropysc (one of the nationally recommended for gifted kiddos), strongly recommended home school with rigorous, engaging curricula (and very strongly discouraged unschooling, which we were doing at that point). It has proven to be good advice.

Although she's always been intense and argumentative, at this point, every day requires full de-escalation techniques on my part to get through the day. Most recently, she's begun throwing "tantrums". There is no "heat" behind them, although it can quickly escalate. Scribbling in textbooks, crumbling papers, slamming her fist on the piano during practice. It feels very manipulative. She doesn't want to do anything "hard". Everything requires an argument. Everything.

She's in extracurriculars she likes, her schooling is largely 2-3 full grade levels ahead of her age grade, and subjects she finds interesting (well, except maybe spelling, which is a necessity). She's learning, but isn't being pushed to her limit by any means.

I've streamlined things so she's mostly working 4-5 hours a day, 4 days per week- including piano practice and an outside class with kids she likes. She helps me with volunteer activities and has adequate downtime to day dream, do art, and be creative.

I work 20 or so hours a week, mostly evening and Saturday, so she doesn't have too much time with me.

Anyone BTDT or can recommend a resource? I'm worn out.

Thanks!
Bean

I always recommend Ross Greene's CPS: www.livesinthebalance.org
The Explosive Child (recently revised, in a 2014 edition)

And I would start to look for any kind of pattern. Think of behavior as communicative, and try to find the "message".

Under what conditions are these incidents occurring? at certain times of day? on certain days of the week? after particular activities? when hungry? tired? after a busy day? a disruption in routine? for certain task-types? has she recently undergone any changes in her life situation or those of key figures in her life?

What does she get out of an episode? escaping work? your attention (either related or unrelated to instruction)? a neurotransmitter rush?

Thank you for this. I've read the book, and don't see anything that strikes a chord at the Ross Greene site. You did get me thinking about what the message was she wanted to communicate.

It was just the two of us home this evening, so I thought I'd just ask her. Very articulate child that she is, she gave me a lovely answer about being frustrated, wanting to be right, wanting to be done, etc. For what it's worth, there was probably some truth to it. While she was talking, though, her body language was very fidgety, like she had somewhere to go. I was cutting into her day-dreaming time.

She has a rich fantasy world she invents, largely based on what she is reading, mixed with her own details. She walks or swings while she does this. It goes on for hours a day. She was at it for at least 4 hours today while I was at work, and is back outside right now.

I guess I should have connected the two. New book series to day dream about? New frustrations and tantrums because she isn't there.

She's always had imaginary friends. She does well in real life with social interactions and has a number of real life acquaintances- including a "best friend".

The only cure for the current obsessive re-living of what she is reading is to introduce a new series/ book. We've been through all of Narnia, Black Cauldron, How to Train Your Dragon, and Harry Potter Series' as well as dozens of short term single books and day dreams in the last 6 months. I wish there was an awesome fantasy series about a girl who did her homework and didn't argue with her parents.

I actually had to physically take away the Harry Potter and How to Train Your Dragon books because they were such a disruption to life. She loved Hobbit, but because she doesn't seem to be able to place herself into it, it hasn't been a problem.

I guess there really isn't a resource for this, is there?

She loves non-fiction, too. I don't think I can realistically restrict her to reading only non-fiction, though. Besides, she would be stuck in Harry Potter (the current obsession) until she found a new fantasy.

Okay-- this sounds exactly like me starting around that age and continuing in a more conservative manner well into adulthood. I would become so overstimulated by what I was reading that I would immerse myself in a fantasy world replete with my own details. Real life was "drag" compared to what I could mentally construct from a book. It could completely explain the impatience with the grind of daily life for a highly imaginative child.

Here is what worked for me-- my family had a mini trampoline. I would bounce and think-- sometimes putting on some music. The advantage was that the mental overstimulation would wane once my body became tired. The trampoline was gradually replaced by long walks, then eventually a strong running regimen (complete with headphones to screen out real world distractions). I found in my case that there was a heavy connection with mental and physical over excitability. Intense, short amounts of exercise (alone) helped with the balance.

I am in mid forties and can still still get overstimulated by a good book or interesting thought. Because my physical energy is diminishing- pacing the floor or periods of silent contemplation work now.

I was this way, as a child. That's why I have never had issue with her daydreaming and imaginary friends. I just never made the connection with her behavior.

I was even a runner for a similar reason.

Thanks. I just need to channel it better, I believe.

Sounds like a good pinpointing of what is going on. Been there myself at times, it may also favor some structure for her to help control. As an alternative consider making fantasy fiction writing part of your curriculum, whether fan fiction or original. The life skill would be more about her developing her own control mechanic, because that sort of hedonistic addictive mechanic can introduce a lot of challenges... and beware of online multi-player games in the future.

Actually, we've had problems with the multi-player online games with an older sibling; he is sitting out a semester of engineering school at the moment. We've worked with her to find the "right" amount of screen time, and for her, it's almost none.

I would welcome any resource ideas for a "control mechanic" life skill. I may share with older brother, too.

I'll consider the fantasy fiction writing. She's been reluctant to do so in the past, but maybe if offered it as an alternative to a history essay? :o)

My son is doing this (the closest description I could find on the internet is Maladaptive Daydreaming), and I think it's his way of dealing with boredom and anxiety. In his head, he is all-powerful (he has fear of germs, and has separation anxiety) so I think this is this is his way of relaxing/escaping the anxiety and/or boredom. As a child, what I hated most was having to do things I didn't want to do, at a time I didn't want to do them, I hated not being free to do what I wanted to do in life, because I was too young, etc. I hated being bored and having to wait.

In his head he is free and powerful and has amazing adventures and battles. Unfortunately he has discovered that it is an excellent escape and is daydreaming in his class a majority of the time, and if we turn off his trigger (TV) he will melt down, even though he is fairly stable temperment-wise. I think he deep-sixed his chance to get into the gifted program because he likely daydreamed through some instructions. So in our case, it is Maladaptive, but if she is just using it as an escape, what you are doing when you cut into her daydreaming is you are taking away her favorite toy, right while she is playing with it...

I second Portia's advice about making sure she gets enough exercise (although a lot of these types of daydreamers use exercise to improve the daydreaming which may be why she's swinging). Just watch whats going on, and maybe set some rules for daydreaming -give her a specific time that is just hers to do it- see if she can do it though. With my son I don't know if I could set rules for it, he would probably break them as it's a way he's coping with anxiety.

Also ZS is right on about addictiveness- there are a lot of adults on the web who are trying to figure out how to stop dreaming their lives away...

Also, the good news is that if you outgrew it, this may be completely developmental and she will learn to channel it just like you did. And cammom has some good points too.

I think I read that Nikola Tesla walked 8-10 miles a day. Wonder if he was using that to think up some of his ideas...

All of this input does help.

I will track the patterns, but it pretty much occurs when she is not actively engaged in something I've required her to do. She does turn down most "non essential" activities in favor of "walking her circle".

We're starting a writing class this week (I'm teaching a group of middle graders), so I'll nudge for some day dream incorporation from her.

Projects haven't worked because she is sloppy and quick so she can get back to her day dreaming. It was a huge problem with 4H this year, actually.

Maybe we have crossed the line into something "maladaptive".

She does get quite a bit of physical activity (swim team, hiking, etc), but literally mountain climbing (on vacation) is the only one we noticed a decrease in the day dreaming, although it still occurred if we had an hour of downtime at the campground in the evening.

She was very sensory seeking as an infant and literally always needed to move. She still is, but it's more face touching, scab picking, fingernail chewing-type stuff. I wonder if it would be worse without the swinging/ daydream walking.

Museums (art and science) seem to give her enough mental stimulation to distract her for a day or two.

She's done well with drama classes (actually was in a commercial recently), but as an ongoing thing it won't work with our schedule. She's been invited to audition by two different directors, but our local youth theater group is 60 miles away and productions require attending rehearsals four days per week for 6 weeks at a time.

This actually really concerns me. Now that I'm seeing the big picture, I realize I didn't out grow it.

I spent my first semester at college lost in a walking day dream and ended up detouring to a different school/ major that was easier.

It didn't really stop until I, unfortunately, took up smoking. I gave up smoking and started working 70 hours a week, then distance running and grad school. The last few years of my life have been packed with adult responsibility. With three of my four away from home, I believe I need to be proactively looking for something to productively fill my time, as well as help Dd avoid losing chunks of her life to this.

Our kids sound very similar. My son also picks at/bites nails (I also bite my nails). I have also noticed that my son is ignoring projects he would have really enjoyed (like making a bug model in his class) because it cuts into his daydreaming time. He was also sensory seeking but had a lot of OT as a baby and doesn't seem to have a lot of sensory stuff anymore. Do a google search on MD and see if it fits your experience growing up. I do remember daydreaming a lot to survive boredom, but no one I know of in my family did this, but they could have just never mentioned it or learned to hide it. I do feel like I have addictive behaviors, for instance I will use "flow" to solve problems whenever I have down time... I will do all that is required, but once I have down time I'm back to researching...it is hard for me to just sit and be in the moment.

Smoking sounds like self medicating... interesting. When I have looked this up, most of the people who are managing it are reducing triggers - triggers are tv, media, books, etc. I'm not sure the cure isn't worse than the disease.

Hmm... here's a thought- something that saved me later. I became less entranced in my day dream life and channeled it productively into "ideas."

I was (and still am) interested in big questions and thoughts. I enjoy sociology, educational philosophy, ethics/logic because it provides a framework for big thoughts.

It started when I stumbled across Lincoln's Gettysberg Address and later Martin Luther King's speeches- I became immersed in the language and the ideas- equality, justice, courage, conviction. These are real life extensions of the ideas in books like Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, etc. It's why they are so entrancing- little people doing big things, overcoming odds, being brave and loyal.

I wonder if there is a way to help your daughter be mindful of time and her tendencies (no one helped me with this to my detriment). Maybe incorporate some philosophy, ethics, sociology into her coursework?

Just some thoughts.

Also, anecdotally some people have had luck managing it with meditation- which makes sense because meditation is about controlling your thoughts, mindfulness etc.

By the way, this is not in itself a problem, as you are catching it in time to help her learn to control it. My DS apparently has anxiety, so if I help him with that, I'm hoping that his imagination will become an asset instead of the land of the lotus eaters...

These days when thinking about my kids my primary thoughts seem to be.. is your giftedness working for or against you? If it's working against you, how can I help you shift that?

What about offering a sabbatical? NaNoWriMo (National Novel Writing Month) is coming up, and they have a Young Writer's program where kids sign up and set their own writing goals. What if you used November as a break for her to work through all her rich imaginative stuff while putting some of it down in novella form - and at the same time, start her on a walking/running/jumping routine, so that by the end of the month she would potentially have set her thoughts down, so might feel that she doesn't need to keep revisiting them continuously (I did this a lot as a kid too, and then started writing, and writing everything down was therapeutic for me, because then I wasn't stressed about what I might have forgotten between yesterday and today, I used to panic about all of it, and can remember waiting for "me time" and feeling rather anxious poking at that part of my mind, wondering how much I forgot).

What also helped me was to get a little ideas notebook that I carried around for a while and every time I had a great idea (to my mind anyway), I would jot it down. Then it was "safe" and I didn't have to spend so much time running it through my mind over and over and I could come back to it later instead.

The Young Writer's program from NaNoWriMo offers quite a lot to kids who take part. They also offer t-shirts and other merchandise if you make your target (even if not) - was just thinking maybe you could buy her a shirt if she makes her target within the month and she's settled into the new, more physical routine as well?
It might be easier for her to then settle back into "normal" academics afterwards as she'll have worked through all her daydreaming time type stuff, and will also be a little more tired due to the physical stuff?

She does have idea notebooks. I do the same with a running documents on the computer, although I really don't write any fiction. I know the "I don't want to loose this thought!" feeling.

I'll keep the NaNoWriMo in mind for next year as she is in a writing class for this fall, using resources she likes.

She's a "need input" kid- always has been. I increased her supply of history and science (and comic) books/ magazines and bought her a model rocket to build. So far, so good. We are on a school break right now, so it's tough to say how next week will go.

Last year we did more contest math/ problem solving as part of our routine math, but it's fallen off of our schedule as we button up some loose ends for before Algebra.

What if she got to channel some of that creativity into designing her own projects for homeschooling? You could create a jar or bowl so everytime she has an idea she can write it down and put it into the jar. When she is looking for something to do, she can take one out and work on it. This way you are showing her how to organise her thoughts and then turn them into output.

This has worked well for my oldest (7) thus far. We still largely unschool although he is now gravitating towards more rigour on his own. I am loving the self-driven goal setting. And more so, the frustration he feels when he has gotten sidetracked from doing his "big plans". I think it's a great lifeskill that can be learnt in a real life setting and I love seeing how week by week he is getting so much better at translating his ideas into workable projects and plans.

Well, we started back from out break on Monday. Had a tantrum right off when she had an error in math I asked her to correct. Since they were simple problems and simple errors, I gave others to do instead. And informed her there would be twice as many of whatever she was rebelling against.

Things have been much better, though. I've added some hands on projects with dad while I'm at work and she started a Starbase class last week. We added a pile of non fiction books that are over her head (math and science), and she's working her way through vi hart's infinity videos stopping whenever she doesn't understand something. She seems to need the out of level stuff to chew on. Although she reads at something of an advanced level, her strength is in math.

Most importantly, I took away her day planner and told her we will finish at 2:30 pm (which was when we finished when I had daily tutoring students). If we finish before that, it's a bonus.

We did also start back to our group writing class I teach. She willingly spent an hour writing and revising her story for that yesterday.

I know the day dreaming is still happening in the evening, but with more to think about during the day, it seems less intrusive.

We are still throwing tantrums here. The day dreaming is well in hand. We've been averaging 2-3 fits a week over stupid stuff.

Two questions. First, at what point do I consider seeing a Pysc? Our previous visit involved travel, so we'd need someone close to home. I don't have any interest in having her tested again until after we do the Explore to see if it's worth the money and time (probably in February).

Second, what do you do with a HG/PG kiddo when home school is not working? Unschooling is not an option with this kid. B and M school would be a joke.

Where we are at the moment: She has a program she's enrolled in once a week right now she loves- hands on math and science with kids a year or so older: Starbase. She gets to be the "Pilot" for her table tomorrow.

We've told her how important it is she manage her temper this week so she can go. She's proceeded to throw tantrums, slam fists, scribble pages... I took away attending the program on Monday and told her, "Hey, have an awesome Tuesday and Wednesday, and you can earn it back."

Yesterday was good... Today was a nuclear blow up over a multi-digit multiplication problem. It was review, and really long. I actually lost my place showing her how to do it, so I do understand her frustration.

I'm always afraid I'm inciting her (my own mother was a pro- if she said, "if you do x than you cannot do y", I knew she'd make sure I would blow up and lose y, every single time.) It was not a skill that served me well going into adulthood.

Managing one's temper is a non-negotiable.

I think I'm making things worse instead of better. She seems to get angry whenever she needs to do anything she deems time-consuming or hard.

We don't have much for schooling options for her. If she was enrolled, she'd be working 2 full grade levels ahead. There are no options within an hour+ that would accommodate. I'd like to switch to something online, but online public school is not really an option either (it's pretty bad in our state), and the reviews on K12.com and Time4Learning are pretty dismal.

EPGY until she takes the Explore? I don't want to move her test date up because she likely to play connect the dots if she goes into it with her current attitude. I'm not sure if I'll know more after the Explore, anyhow.

Thanks-

I note that only 2.5 weeks have passed since you first began discussing this. In that time, you've apparently solved one problem (daydreaming), and tantrums have evolved from "every day" to "2-3 per week." That sounds like positive progress.

Behavior modification is a process that requires consistency, patience, and time. It sounds like you're doing well with the first thing, running short on the second, and haven't had much of the last thing yet.

I'd recommend a few minor modifications to your approach, based on the little shared here:

- Clearer definition of behavioral goals that can restore access to lost privileges. Rather than, "have an awesome" Tuesday and Wednesday, say, "no tantrums." Because "awesome" is pretty ambiguous.

- I'd find something else to use as a revocable privilege. On one hand, the thing you're using is an educational opportunity... according to my Rights, Responsibilities, and Privileges speech I give to DD, education is a right, and cannot be revoked. So, unless I saw my DD throwing tantrums in that class environment, such that she was interfering with her own education and with that of others, the class would be off limits for me. On the other hand, a once-weekly event is pretty remote, and you want the child to experience negative consequences much sooner. It's better to find something the child enjoys access to every day.

Otherwise, it sounds like you're on the right track, and you should take a moment to appreciate that things are getting better in a relatively short time.

Thanks,
"- Clearer definition of behavioral goals that can restore access to lost privileges. Rather than, "have an awesome" Tuesday and Wednesday, say, "no tantrums." Because "awesome" is pretty ambiguous."

Good point. We were more clear. In the interest of brevity, I emphasized the tone, rather than the exact wording (i.e., it was positive rather than threatening.)

As a serious "caboose" child, (by nearly 10 years), dd does seem to get the smaller dose of my patience and time. Pointing that out is warranted.

Now, to find something non-educational to revoke is a problem. She's not motivated by many material things. I'll need to ponder.

Thanks,
Bean

Removing the privilege to read for pleasure until after I had completed my responsibilities was the magic ticket for me as a child, FWIW. (My showdown was over cleaning my room.)

Our DD9 has a ritual cup of strawberry milk every night shortly before bed, and she gets really, really upset if she misses it, so that's an easy, daily go-to for us. She recently revived bedtime stories, and I canceled that once last weekend due to behavior issues. We also use early bedtimes, because getting adequate sleep is a health and an educational issue, which are protected rights, but staying up 'til the latest reasonable bedtime is a privilege, and can be revoked.

I'm not sure how we ended up with so many of her go-to punishments revolving around bedtime... it wasn't intentional. It certainly is convenient, though, because we can make sure any intolerable behaviors at any point of the day are met with consequences the same day.

We're pretty flexible and creative with punishments, though, so if something is on hand that's more immediate, we use that. So if DD doesn't want to clean her room, and she has a friend heading over shortly, no problem, play date is cancelled.

Hmm... I think early bedtime will be the way to go. She's never in her life gone to bed before 9-9:30. That would rock her world. She never napped either, but that's for another post.

It would be hard to even take away reading for pleasure or really anything else- as an immediate punishment. The kid could entertain herself with dryer lint if need be.

I guess I should also say we have been trying to address this earnestly for several months. We had never really connsidered it a gifted issue. Since I posted here afew weeks ago, we have made progess. The feedback has been immensly valuable.

Can you hire a tutor, even just a few hours a week? I could never homeschool my oldest (10), who still has blow-ups similar to what you describe over homework at times. She and I are not a good combination when it comes to instruction. She and dad are a little better, but not much. She does not have these issues with other adults, or only very minorly so. What about your daughter? Any blow-ups at her class, for insance? I understand your concerns about B&M school, but it sounds like another person to instruct might help.

I am NOT blaming you at all. I absolutely KNOW the kind of thing you are going through. It is why I jokingly say that if we homeschooled only one of us would get out alive.

I know what you mean Ultramarina! My kids almost always do better being taught by other people. Instruction from their parents just gets their backs up and quickly spirals into uselessness.

Also, if I homeschooled my DS we'd spend the day with him questioning every word I say ("Why do I need to study math? What is this 'math'? What is 'is'?" etcetera), or picking apart my grammar as I instruct him. LOL

I am sort of the local person who tutors :o) We are in a fairly rural area, so most activities, lessons, etc, require a long car trip.

She blew up yesterday at breakfast in front of her dad, which he hasn't seen at this level before, saw how I handled it and backed me up 100% (thanks DH!).

Along with the consistency Dude mentioned, a different day planner page (check list rather than time) and some positive reinforcement we gave her after a very long day of car shopping on Saturday, we are off to a good start this a.m.

Her piano teacher also upped the expectations for her at the end of last week, which I think has changed her view of herself, although watching her face during her lesson was pretty funny (to me.)

Today, so far, so good.

Don't mean to derail, but Dude would you elaborate on this topics (either in another thread, a PM, or by pointing me to a thread where this was discussed)?

We are working on making things run smoother in our household and this really resonated with me at first glance. I would appreciate knowing more about your speech, your thinking on this topic, the lists of items in each bucket, etc. Thanks in advance.

And to make this relevant to the OP, Bean, I sympathize. DD is always better getting taught by other people than by DH or I. She seems to save all her worst behaviors for us.

Feel free to elaborate here!

Thanks for all of the sympathy. It's really not a "just mom" thing- although she does save her best performances for me.

Unfortunately, hers is a personality that "turns up" in my family tree. My hope is to direct it into something productive rather than self-destructive.

I've seen it go both ways.

Okay, here goes. I'll try to keep it short.

I start off by describing protected rights. These are things that NOBODY is allowed to take away from them, including us as parents, so there are limits on our power. Parents who consistently fail to protect their children's rights can find themselves losing custody. Responsibilities and rights go hand in hand... in order to protect a right, we have to take certain actions.

Some protected rights:

- Safety
- Health
- Education

You'd be surprised at how much ground you can cover with just these three, but you can always add more, this is just what I came up with off the top of my head, and the most frequently referenced in our home. Once your child understands these concepts, and objects to something you need them to do, you can play the rights card, which makes it easy to convey two important things:

1) Negotiation is futile. I'm not allowed to bend on this, so don't ask.
2) Here's how this rule exists for your benefit.

Responsibilities flow from rights. So, for example, in defense of good health, we parents are responsible for providing an adequate supply and variety of healthy food and drink. for ensuring the home is reasonably clean and germ free, etc. The children have responsibilities as well, such as showering once a day, brushing their teeth twice a day, eating only in designated areas, go to bed on time, etc. Because they all flow from rights, these things are non-negotiable, though we can exhibit flexibility from time to time (yes, you can continue that activity a little longer, and take your shower first thing in the morning).

Privileges, on the other hand, are entirely optional, and this is the space in which we parents act with absolute power. My DW and I rule as a benevolent dictatorship, in which we prefer to shower our child with as many privileges as are reasonable, within our means, and not in conflict with a protected right. DD does not have a protected right to access to toys, electronics, sleepovers/playdates, activities with friends, activities with parents, etc. She has a right to a healthy breakfast, but it doesn't have to be her favorite healthy breakfast on any particular morning. We might choose to make it for her as a special privilege.

And here's the key with privileges: privileges are earned through good behavior, and lost through bad behavior.

I'm laughing because this is EXACTLY what homeschooling my daughter would be like. I have my limits.

That's when it's time to turn on an audio book at our house. The mom equivalent of "I'm not listening la la la" :0)

When you've got your groove, homeschooling can be great. The kid you drop at school in the morning isn't the same kid you homeschool. My older three attended PS most of their school career, and even though I was super PTO /band/ sports booster parent, it was still a different relationship. My relationship with homeschooled dd is not always better, but it's not any worse.

I think your daughter's double is in my writing class... "Is this syllabus covered under fair use? Did you write the schedule? Who are those people? What are they doing out in the yard? I didn't get to play basketball this week. What are we reading next? Why? I already read that"

By the way, Dude, thanks for the overview- very helpful!

Yes, thank you!

You're quite welcome.