Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion What "elite" math camps are there?

I saw a link to Epsilon Camp
http://www.epsiloncamp.org/
and it got me thinking.

What "elite" math camps are there (for what age/grade ranges)?

I'm thinking about camps that genuinely cater to the top 0.1% (or thereabouts) in math, not just something like the top 5%.

So the general question is, what is the list of such math camps in the USA (or North America)?

More specifically to our situation, our DS7 is somewhere in the top 0.1% in math, but we're not exactly sure where. We'd want him to be with genuine peers. We homeschool and have one stay at home parent (and the other often working at home too) so we certainly don't need "summer camp as child care now that school's out" at all. Also we both have math PhDs and could probably teach DS7 anything he'd see at Epsilon Camp (and maybe the "older camps"). The price of Epsilon Camp is quite a shock. For tuition, room and board (including required accompanting adult) and transport it would be more than $4,000 for only two weeks. We're frugal (we spend about zero on education, have one 12yo car etc.) and generally balk at such an expense, but if it is truly worth it, we can do it.

It would be worth it if it were to be a truly incredible life-altering experience for DS. But would it be? DS, though not shy, and a very nice kid, is a bit socially awkward and has basically never really connected with another child, except his younger siblings, due in part to being so different and not hiding it. Maybe he would find true peers that he could really connect with. That would be the real purpose of going. And to discuss mathematics with a wider group of children and adults outside the family.

Anyone have opinions, or feedback, about Epsilon Camp specifically, or about math summer camps generally?

Another question is about the Epsilon Camp Admission Criteria.
http://www.epsiloncamp.org/who_is_eligible.php
DS easily exceeds the Achievement Test cutoffs by a very wide margin, and would be otherwise ready with the math background (maybe waiting til 2015 to be solid with the Algebra I prerequisite) but he does not have a qualifying IQ score due to certain subtests being markedly lower than the rest. Does anyone know if they are strict with these cutoffs, or do they use some "common sense" when a child clearly easily exceeds all their mathematical requirements, but falls short on parts of an IQ test that really shouldn't matter when it comes to mathematical aptitude.

Also are there any "elite" (top 0.1%) math summer camps, that are not so expensive (and how do you get in)?

When your son is a bit older, you could consider Awesome Math Camp. https://www.awesomemath.org/summer-program/

My eldest kept getting their brochures. We don't know who submitted her name, but we laughed about it as math is her weak point. It is expensive, but it would be a place to meet others like him.

Check out mathzoom.org as well. Expensive, but again, might have kids at his level. There are some free or low cost camps for high school kids, but he wouldn't qualify based on age for a while.

Are there any Math Circles near you? Look at mathcircles.org They might provide a challenge and there would be other math loving kids.

To take MathPath as an example... Your future 11yo could be learning from John Conway and Robin Hartshorne each summer. You're talking about some of the best research mathemticians in their fields... and getting to hang out with other kids like him. Both of these are HUGE benefits if you can afford it.

Now Epsilon is a similar unique experience... but for our DS7 the value proposition isn't as clear. The social benefits are more muted at a younger age. The faculty is very strong but I feel like we can meet his intellectual needs on our own. Though I am researching geometry texts to go with Euclid in the next year or so. Its a hard call... You could always call or email and get their thoughts. A former director and former professor from Epsilon post on the WTM accelerated boards so you could also look at some old threads there and ask for input.

Good Luck.

ETA. Also my impression is most kids are 9 or 10. Some of the strongest kids may be younger, but either way it sounds like you have some time to figure it out.

Is your son a DYS?

I think Epsilon Camp is it for younger kids. My son is applying and I have heard that it is life changing for kids who attend.

The folks who started Epsilon are working on a Delta camp for younger kids (6-7) for next year which could also be an option.

I'm not sure how much a kid with access to two PhD math parents would get out of a math camp. For a kid without such access, mathpath was quite special. I don't know if I would call it life-changing, but it was definitely worth the cost. I do think my child would describe it as the best 4 weeks of life so far -- and just asked, my child would also say it was life-changing.

My sense of these camps is that they aren't for math talented kids, although the kids there are talented in math. They are for kids who LOVE math and who are excited about anything John Conway has to say, who spend free time thinking about mathy things, and who love learning math. I suspect that many kids in the top 0.1% do not fit these criteria and would be disappointed. For the kids who love the math itself, I think these camps can truly amazing.

Epsilon was somethng I've glanced at a bit, but the pricetag is wow. In terms of top .1%, look at Epsilon's reqs for transtable scores: http://www.epsiloncamp.org/who_is_eligible.php

Has your son tried other activities that might be appealing to high-IQ, math-minded children? What about chess, Lego robotics clubs, or even card trading games that meet at comic book stores, etc? It seems to be that with two math PhD parents and the level of achievement and instruction you describe, you might be disappointed in these camps pedagogically, and the price is so high. I'd look for other ways to connect with similar children socially first, if that is a main goal. You might be able to find peers for free. I don't know where you live or how likely it is that there are other children near you in somewhere near the same ballpark, though.

(Keeping in mind that your child doesn't need his friends to be top .1%. Top 1% is probably going to be a pretty good fit compared to what he may have previously encountered, and groups like that sort of autofilter.)

22B, did you investiagte Math Circle? There are 3 in the Bay Area - Stanford, Berkeley and San Jose.
Stanford's is linked here: http://math.stanford.edu/circle/

My ds 10 best week was a Minecraft design camp. He made some good friends.

A close second was a week of playing dungeons and dragons in an old abandon school that was being remodeled. A close 3nd was Magic card week.

I doubt that the 2 weeks of Math Camp even got a mention.

Minecraft and D&D sound like other great options. None of this is to say the math camps couldn't also be of amazing worth, but I think I'd try some other things first, maybe? We also live an intentionally thrifty lifestyle so I really get where you are coming from.

Thanks, everyone (OP, here). I'll hopefully be able to make detailed replies soon.

One standard way is to take a math achievement test and score at least 3 standard deviations above average, see e.g. here
http://www.davidsongifted.org/young...holars___Qualification_Criteria_384.aspx
(so a score of 145+ on a test with mean 100, standard deviation 15).

Some school administered group tests have too low ceilings, so they can't be used to distinguish the top 0.1% (though again they can be if one takes it at a much younger than standard age).

On the other hand scoring X on math competition Y at age Z could in some cases put someone in a much narrower range than top 0.1%


No. And Epsilon Camp has similar cutoffs. DS7 exceeds the 145 cutoff for math achievement by a ton, but doesn't have the IQ score (wide scatter). The testing was done for free by a school, and after that I came across this forum when googling for information to understand scores, so hadn't heard of DYS. We decided we weren't going to bother with IQ testing again. In math, I believe competition results will count for more, and can ultimately distinguish those at high level in math specifically. It's actually a bit odd that they ask for an IQ score (maybe they think they don't have much to go on at these ages and want an extra filter). The "older" camps don't seem to mention such scores at all. I have no doubt that DS7 is mathematically good enough for this camp (when he's older, maybe 2015), so I'm tempted to say, "here are his scores/results/schoolwork/recommendation, obviously he's good enough, we're not doing IQ testing, take it or leave it". Anyone else considered this approach?

No. And Epsilon Camp has similar cutoffs. DS7 exceeds the 145 cutoff for math achievement by a ton, but doesn't have the IQ score (wide scatter, 6 subtests 15-18, 4 subtests 7-11). The testing was done for free by a school, and after that I came across this forum when googling for information to understand scores, so hadn't heard of DYS. We decided we weren't going to bother with IQ testing again. In math, I believe competition results will count for more, and can ultimately distinguish those at high level in math specifically. It's actually a bit odd that they ask for an IQ score (maybe they think they don't have much to go on at these ages and want an extra filter). The "older" camps don't seem to mention such scores at all. I have no doubt that DS7 is mathematically good enough for this camp (when he's older, maybe 2015), so I'm tempted to say, "here are his scores/results/schoolwork/recommendation, obviously he's good enough, we're not doing IQ testing, take it or leave it". Anyone else considered this approach?
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I think the thinking behind IQ has to do an additional filter plus achievement testing at that age can be tricky. Dottie may know more, but my understanding is that a 5 yo with high WJIII scores is not as impressive as a 9yo with high WJII scores. On Epsilon camp admissions, they ask for the arithmetic subtest if possible. If your son had this as a subtest and did well (or hit the ceiling), I would ask for them to review even without qualifying IQ scores.

Thanks for the insight into their thinking about asking for IQ scores. It is true that achievement scores are boosted by exposure (e.g. an internet connection, so a kid can teach themselves more easily than when we were kids), but like any test, they measure what they measure. A high achievement score clearly indicates ability too.

Anyway the virtual school told us they'd be testing and did it for free (so DS7 qualified for their gifted label), and as a by-product we have some (scattered) scores which can be used for some things. They didn't do the arithmetic subtest, which is a pity because it certainly would be high (though WMI was high anyway).

By the time 2015 applications roll around, DS may have an AMC8 score and an EXPLORE score, which may or may not be good/great for age. But they'll be a decent amount of data showing math ability.

I just can't see going out and getting an IQ test for the mere possibility of qualifying for a camp.

Yes, when I first saw the website I was excited, then when I saw the price, I was totally deflated.
http://www.epsiloncamp.org/fees.php
The good news is that they say they discount the price for households earning under $120k, (i.e. 85% of US households).
http://www.epsiloncamp.org/financial_aid.php
The bad news is that they say "Up to four students will receive the reduction." meaning they can't possibly be giving everyone a discount according to their own formula "The amount of the fee reduction increases linearly from 0 to $2000 as the total family income decreases from $120000 to $50000".

It looks like the other math camps (e.g. MathPath and MathCamp) offer income based discounts, too.

This definitely makes these more affordable to us, though Epsilon Camp's costs would still add up due to the need for accompanying family members, which are NOT needed (or allowed) for the middle and high school age campers.

It is more a question of the value proposition ($10 lunches?) and considering the consumption of parental vacation time. Last summer DS7 enjoyed a hands on equations camp setup for grades 1-6 for a week at $200 and the top group matched his level even if not his passion.

Regarding qualifying, he also has a similar scatter issue. One of the instructors started the local kid's math club, I might see if I can catch a minute with him about how big the applicant pool is as that might imply how flexible they are on whether a maxed math achievement with a near IQ might work.

DS7 absolutely LOVES mathematics, and loves thinking about and talking about mathematics itself purely for its own sake. These camps definitely sound like his thing. When we told him that these camps existed, and that there was possibility of him going, and he could meet other children like him and do mathematics all day, he was so absolutely thrilled by the prospect that he was overwhelmed with emotion. It definitely has the potential to be life-changing. (Or it might be a let-down academically and/or socially. And it's expensive. And they might not let him in anyway.) But when DS7 saw it he definitely wanted to go. BTW he'll be 8 next summer (2014), so too old for Delta, and we'd be thinking about summer 2015 anyway.

I definitely see how there is a stronger argument to be made for waiting for MathPath (age 11-14)
www.mathpath.org/
rather than Epsilon Camp (age 8-11), though that's a long time for a little kid to wait. The experience (and expense) is postponed, but may be well worth the wait.

Hmmm DS7 is really interested in mathematics itself, rather than other "merely" mathy things. If it's his free time and he's not doing math, then he'll be playing in the park, watching cartoons, going on roller coasters, and other non-mathy fun things.

However you do have a point that maybe he should develop some of those interests and meet kids with at least some compatibility, and the activities could be cheap or free.

I just remembered that there is a local gifted middle school with a Math Club that might let DS7 attend some time in the future when he's mathematically/socially ready. (I'd have to get the timing of that right, as I don't want to "pushy parent" our way in, and then have it go wrong.) That would be the most similar thing to one of the math summer camps, except it would be local and free.

As to "It seems to be that with two math PhD parents and the level of achievement and instruction you describe, you might be disappointed in these camps pedagogically, and the price is so high." that's basically right except I don't think DS would be "above" these camps academically. At the highest level camps I think he'd just be "typical". (And they might not think he's good enough and not let him in, and maybe there's some camp where they'd be right.) What we don't want is some camp or activity that's too low level, especially if expensive, and that's why I really wanted a good idea of how the camps/activities could be "rated" for quality of organizers and participants.

You might be surprised at the quality of the middle schools math clubs/camps you are talking about. My ds school has math camps all summer. They have 2 different classes and they are packed. They go over a ton of discrete math topics at a very quick pace. They have several Math counts test and several team competitions during each week. Even the best kids are challenged. On Friday they set up the gym and have a mock team competition... they call it the guts round competition, kind of based of the MIT type competition. It's worth it just for the kids to hang out with other mathy kids. I am sure it is not up to par with the camps you guys have been looking at but it is very good exposure. Just a thought.

It sounds like you are in far more "intellectual" areas than we are. The gifted middle school (within a regular school) may be a bit of an oasis here, especially since it is, quite anomalously for around here, the only gifted school that has not been placed in a dangerous part of town, so it has a much higher participation rate of qualifying students. So their math club would be pretty good. But apart from the odd bright spot around where we live, just as some people live in "food deserts", we are living in an "intellectual stimulation desert". There's certainly not going to be anything like what you two describe.

Ha! We too live in an 'intellectual stimulation desert'--whereabouts are all these math groups, mecreature? Maybe we could visit some family nearby depending on where it is.

I did discuss the possibility of Epsilon camp with DD and she said she would not want to do math all day. She loves the local IMACS math camps, but they are only a week long and involve only a couple of hours of "math" each day; then they switch to their version of computer programming or 'electronics' (making circuits, etc.) for a couple of hours and have a long lunch break as well as I think some video time So I have definitely not pushed it but it would be nice if she had more interest. On the other hand, I wonder how a camp like Epsilon would handle it if a kid ended up not wanting to be in class all day--probably it doesn't come up much though because given the cost I bet people are good at self-selecting.

We are kind of lucky I guess.

This sounds right. It is certainly possible to do very well in competitions without acceleration or preparation. (I know.) The good competitions may have a range of problems from not so hard to extremely difficult, but intentionally designed so that advanced knowledge typically can't help, though it may help to know some things not emphasized in school. There are some relevant articles here.
http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Resources/articles.php?page=calculustrap
http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Resources/articles.php?page=discretemath
http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Resources/articles.php?page=pc_competitions

That said, strong maths students should not be held back from acceleration, and acceleration is much easier these days with the internet.

Hi,

Just wonder who's going Epsilon. We can connect via PM.

Best,

No. We might apply next year. Any feedback about the application process? How rigid are they with their eligibility criteria?

We can't say if the eligibility criteria are rigidly follow or otherwise, as our experiences with application process are quiet straightforward.

We may know more once we meet with other families at the camp.

quite straightforward

I'm sure several of us would like to hear feedback about Epsilon Camp after it's happened.

PM sent.