Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Gap between processing speed and working memory

Not holding a pencil correctly (especially when a student has been taught how to hold it) is one sign of a potential fine motor challenge. You've mentioned quite a few other things too that can all be signs of a fine motor challenge:





These can each be signs of other challenges too, but when you have the list of each combined... it's worth looking into testing for fine motor issues. Remember that "fine motor" doesn't just mean something entirely physical, such as a finger joint that is hypermobile or immobile - fine motor challenges such as dysgraphia are neurological in origin - somewhere there is a quirk in the link that exists between the brain wanting to do something and being able to get the fine motor muscles to actually carry out the command.

I can't remember - has your dd had the Beery VMI or any other test of visual-motor integration? Has she had the NEPSY? Finger tapping test etc? Have you tried timing her handwriting speed?

I'm also wondering if you've tried a simple experiment at home - have your dd write something using handwriting, have her write something similar using keyboarding, and have her "write" something similar by telling you about it verbally. Time the three of those tasks - how much slower was she with handwriting? Also look at the content as well as grammar/spelling/punctuation on the handwritten and typed work - are there differences? Improvements with typing?

I think that what is more important here than the actual subtest scores on coding and symbol search (and PSI total) is the combination of evidence that you have that handwritten timed tasks are a challenge - for whatever reason. It sounds like she needs accommodations no matter what the root cause - but otoh, you'll probably need a bit more of an understanding of what's up to really be able to put meaningful accommodations in place long-term. In the short term, I'd seriously consider asking for a scribe or keyboarding in class and extended time on tests.

polarbear

While 34th percentile does fall within average, it's on the lower end of the average range (which goes from 25th percentile to 73rd percentile according to the WISC charts I've seen), not "right in the heart of average". There are also a few of our kids on this board who have dysgraphia and other fine motor of visual motor integration challenges that cause *significant* challenges for them yet have processing speeds as high as 90-110 (maybe higher). My EG ds has a PSI in the 65th percentile on his most recent testing, and he is considered to have severe fine motor challenges.

A 34th percentile score in and of itself might not be an issue for a student, but you can't look at just that one score and say it either does or doesn't indicate a challenge, it's the combination of results of different tests taken with classroom observation, work samples etc that leads to a diagnosis. It's important though not to just brush off an "average" score on an ability subtest as "ok because it's average" when the child who is being evaluated is on the high end of their other subtests. Discrepancies that large in subtest scores do, in my limited experience, usually mean *something* is up.

Best wishes,

polarbear

polarbear

She hasn't had any testing...maybe I'll take her for an OT eval privately just to make sure everything is Ok, but I know she is in way better shape than DS is in terms of all fine motor skills including writing and he did Ok on the Beery VMI. Like DS, she has super high perceptual reasoning and is very visual. She may do poorly just for fine motor coordination though but I've never noticed a problem with using scissors, utensils, buttons, etc.

Her recent cursive packet that she brought home looked perfect--like calligraphy. But who knows how long it took her. One thing that bothers me is she keeps bringing home spelling tests with blank words, so the teacher marks them wrong. DD says she doesn't have enough time to write down the words and she is not allowed to ask the teacher to repeat them. So even when she is not "copying" from something else, she still has trouble. The teacher has threatened to demote her to the lower spelling group a couple times because of her speed.

What is the finger tapping test exactly? Is that where they tap each finger on their hand onto their thumb in order? I asked both kids to do that and they can, but they are not very fast. DD is better than DS. I should look for a YouTube video or something because I don't know what's normal.

Not sure what the NEPSY is but I will look it up. I'll also try to figure out what a normal writing speed is for her age.

DS and DD are not genetically related to each other but they seem to have very similar strengths, weaknesses and discrepancies. What are the odds of having two 2e kids that are not genetic siblings!? DD is higher in everything than DS, but is much lower than DS in processing speed (and DS's neuropsych was worried about his processing speed of 109!). And she has blatant obvious ADHD and I don't think DS has it.

Edited to add, that I looked up the finger tapping test and asked DD again and she was able to do it fairly easily with her left hand but not her right. But she is right-handed. Wonder what that means! It took her a long time to decide if she was right or left handed--I think she was around 4 before we could tell she was right handed. Before that she seemed ambidextrous.

She also says that when she writes quickly she has pain in her wrist and fingers. If she writes slowly, she can write longer before she experiences pain. Hmmmm. I guess I should take her for an eval, but the OTs here don't diagnose anything anyway.

Thanks for asking the question Blackcat! I have been wondering the same, my DS11 scored in the 94 percentile for working memory, and in the 16 percentile for processing speed.

He is not 2e as far as I know. He does have some ADHD like symptoms at home but not at school. According to the Brown Attention Deficit Disorder Scale he is fine :-)

He has a very hard time putting pen to paper for writing exercises, even though he can verbally give detailed, comprehensive answers to the same questions. This means he is often to slow to complete his work at school, this has improved with time. He draws beautify, and his hand writing is quite neat. He can barely write (at all, like one or two letters per sheet of paper) with his left hand (he is right-handed), I find this interesting.

It has been recommended to us that we take him to a behavioral optometrist as a first step, which I have not done yet... I would love for someone to second this recommendation.

Best of luck in your search for answers!

Okay, home now where I can access my son;s scores... My Ds's processing speed was in the 2nd percentile. That's right SECOND Percentile! His Working memory is in the 91st percentile. He scored a 3 on coding and a 6 on symbol search.

The neuropsych did attribute the low processing speed score to his Ehlers Danlos (which causes pain in wrists and hands and causes him great difficulty for physically writing) as well as to his dysgraphia. I believe the symbol search was further affected by his visual processing problems - but she didn't say much about that in her report. By contract he scored "High Average" on Digit Span and Superior on Letter-Number Sequencing.

Wow, that's a big gap. Thanks for the info. Off to google "wrist pain when writing." We have NO genetic info/family history on DD.

Here's an interesting news video i found about ADHD and finger tapping. It doesn't talk about speed, but talks about the fact that with ADHD kids, the fingers on the opposite hand move as well (esp in boys). I wasn't looking for this when I asked my two to try it.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Wellness/mirror-movements-reflect-adhd-kids/story?id=12919887

I just want to throw it out there that while low WM is a typcial profile for ADHD, it is not always the case. My oldest DS, prior to the advent of his complicated medical issues, when his problems were just ADHD and dysgraphia, tested with a WMI of 126 and a PSI in the 90's (can't remember the exact number).

Also be aware that for ADHD kids, those IQ indexes can shift again as the kids mature depending on how well they keep up with neurotypical growths in working memory and speed.

It is possible to have beautiful handwriting prior to 3rd or 2nds grade when the writing demands are lower, especially if the kid is a good artist.

Thanks Quantum,
One thing I've observed with DD is that she does much better on games like Memory when she is medicated vs. unmedicated. I wouldn't be surprised if meds bring up her working memory but it seems weird her processing speed is still low then. I remember DD's K teacher commenting on her handwriting and how advanced it was for a kindergarten student. That's another reason I find it hard to believe there is a serious fine motor issue. But her finger tapping really doesn't look that great. I would love to have her do the Grooved Pegboard test like DS did, just to see what would happen on a manual dexterity test like that.