Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Friends/social fears- asynchrony in adolescence

So. My DD is turning 14 this month. She has NEVER been 'pressured' to be older than she is. We've done a lot to flex her environment so that her asynchronous development can just... be.

On the other hand, she IS grouped by grade for many many things, including those that are only tangentially about cognitive ability, which means that in sports, extracurriculars, etc. she often winds up feeling that she is "mediocre" at best in those domains. That's actually not true, as in many instances, she has competence which far outstrips AGE-mates and if she were placed synchronously, she'd look like a top 1%-er there, too. Well, okay-- maybe not athletically. LOL.

She has struggled with perfectionism (socially prescribed variety-- so procrastination, task-avoidance, and linked directly to self-image in ways that are about punishment, never 'reward').

We are concerned because she seems to be gravitating increasingly toward YOUNGER and YOUNGER peers-- and apparently dumbing down to fit in with them.

In mixed age groups, socially, she'll gravitate to the middle schoolers. She has stopped reading books at her level (college) and begun reading (and in many cases, RE-reading) material that she was reading in 3rd or 4th grade. Her vocabulary has really slipped.

She claims that this is interest-based, and not 'dumbing down.'

The problem is that she is quite a target for the middle-school Lord of the Flies social scene... she's WAY too much a MarySue for them to resist subtly eroding her self-esteem in every imaginable way, while passive-aggressively maintaining what SEEMS (superficially) like being a 'good friend.' She has what I'd call two actual friends, and most kids this age are looking to take shots at her instead because she makes them feel a bit insecure. Recall, we live in a town where 30% of the kids are told they are "super-smart" and parents generally place a LOT of value on that attribute. DD is living proof that they might need to question that assumption, YK? Instead, they tend to question HER-- "Oh, you must not be taking a real AP class... it must be watered down... I could do that, too... that's not so special... I'll bet your parents do ____ FOR you, though... yeah, but you're not good at ____... but I'm more/less ___ than you..."


She also claims (in spite of considerable evidence to the contrary) that her academic peers (3-5y older) "reject her" socially, and that the younger kids don't, and that THAT is why she is seeking them out.

I don't really know what is going on with this. Is it social anxiety? Maybe, but what on earth is fueling it??

Is it related to perfectionism and her insecurity re: risk-taking? Again, I'm not sure, but that doesn't seem to be all of it.


I'm distressed by this attitude from her, though-- because she'll be a senior in high school next year, and she seems to have decided that she 'cannot' fit in with academic peers. I'm not sure WHY she has come to that particular conclusion, because it's not based on any reality that I can see.

The person that we see is vastly less flakey, flighty, and... well, BLONDE-behaving... than the one that she seems to be presenting to groups of adolescents. She doesn't do this other than with real-life/in-person situations. As soon as a group knows her chronological age, she reverts to this immature behavior.

OF COURSE when she acts like a 11-12yo boy, that's who is going to befriend her. Not many 17yo's want close social ties to tweens. The thing is, even people she HAS been friends with have abandoned her in the face of this kind of behavior (not that I blame them).

Any advice, here? I'm puzzled to know how to help her.

The thing is, most of her academic peers are pretty understanding about the typical developmental insecurities associated with being 12-14, having lived through them pretty recently themselves, YK?


So THAT peer group has no trouble relating to her.

It's the younger peer group that does, quite honestly-- because they have NOT lived through being in a high-pressure junior year of high school and selecting colleges, thinking about scholarships and a CV, etc.

She doesn't see this-- at all-- however. She seems to be mentally stuck on the notion that all of her older peers think that she is "just a little kid, really."

I wonder if this is related to the mess with that one (super-sick) peer who played head games with her extensively starting about a year ago. :sigh: I wouldn't doubt it. She's still downright frightened to run into him.

Hmmm. I don't know what to offer, really. There's a reason she's seeking out her age peers, but what stands out for me is that these age peers throw punches at her self-esteem. I think that would concern me most. And I wonder if a lot of girls are vunerable to this kind of thing. I would worry that it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy as I think you might be.

Now that it's summer are there any summer camps in which she could be re-invigorated by her academic peers and get to fully experience her own power and uniqueness? Any place she can be with her people?

Wow - I can't give you any real advice but you have my sympathy. I can understand why your dd may want to gravitate toward her age-mates but younger kids? Although even that is not a real problem. The big concern is that these kids are so mean to her. It isn't even all that subtle. Surely your dd can see through some of that? Any chance you can recruit her two real friends to help her see what's happening? If this continues, it may be advisable to get some professional input to avoid any real damage. You are right to be concerned.

Well, she doesn't SEEM to form very deep friendships with them, so it isn't like she is allowing much access to her inner/authentic self.

My actual concern is more that she isn't opening herself up to authentic friendships much, either.

She seems to be operating on risk-avoidance rather than seeking friendships.


The part that I'm most concerned with:

a) she's not building a repertoire (or practicing one) that will allow her to operate socially in a collegiate setting with older peers-- in other words, she's setting herself up to be aloof/alone/isolated from college peers, and

b) she's deliberately dumbing down to the point that there is now spillover. She's actually suppressing things that she has known for years. It's very disconcerting. This really freaked me out as she did practice exams for her SAT's. I swear that a year ago, she WOULD have had perfect scores-- effortlessly, and probably even two or three years ago would have. Now she is struggling, and some struggles even with vocabulary (which is beyond my ability to even understand it, frankly). Very much "what in the HECK??" territory.


I'm concerned also that this might be a manifestation of either her PTSD-like feelings having survived a brush with a NPD (older) peer who attempted to use her, or that this is about her perfectionism and is really just risk-averse behavior.

She has been VERY oppositional and refuses to work with a mental health professional, incidentally. We've tried to get her to work with a therapist several times in the past five years, but she WILL NOT do it. This is too bad on the one hand because we'd like for her to have the ability to do that, but just as well on the other since it's all out of pocket anyway. Anyway-- whatever we do is likely to need to be DIY, because a therapist is a waste of time and $ for us here unless she decides to become cooperative. Which is about as likely as her learning to fly to the moon, imo.

So she's going to learn the hard way, then.

I'm not seeing a positive outcome here, to tell you the truth.

Sounds like she's kind of deciding to be stubborn, which means that the outcome is pretty much obvious to everyone but her.

HK, I'm so sorry to hear that your DD is going through this rough patch.

This, too, shall pass, but I'd want to better understand why she's suddenly decided the fit is poor with her ability "peers". Was there a precipitating event that she has internalized but not voiced to you? Was there a subtle dynamic to her group that you didn't observe but which changed? Did she take a more than platonic interest in an older boy and get rebuffed? Have the older girls she socialized with begun to perceive her as competition and backed off? Is she internalizing academic stress or perceiving the next step with any anxiety?

Lots of questions, I know, but my sense from your brief exposition is that she isn't being attracted to the younger children, but is recoiling from some aspect of living as an older person. Obviously this isn't an experienced parenting opinion, but I have BTDT somewhat as an accelerated preteen and can sympathize personally with your DD. Life became complicated quickly around 13-14 when older friends' boyfriends/crushes took an interest in me. The social blowback was debilitating and required basically bottomless self-esteem to overcome it.

this was my thought too - any chance this is related to the college discussions and tours and she is just afraid of the upcoming changes and is reverting to not be "ready"

DeHe

my sense from your brief exposition is that she isn't being attracted to the younger children, but is recoiling from some aspect of living as an older person.


It's my sense, as well. She definitely doesn't seem HAPPY about it.

As MoN notes, she probably has a very good idea what she is doing, and why. Though... I have to wonder what was up with the recent regressive stuff with school/language. There's something going on, though, because when we've called her on it (why are you using less sophisticated vocabulary than two years ago), she responds as though we've touched a nerve.

The older NPD peer really did a number on her-- and yes, there was a component of boy-girl stuff there, and no, it wasn't in her head... but it WAS some kind of sicko head-game.

The few times we've convinced her of the need for therapeutic intervention, sadly, her initial point of contact was underwhelming. Being like MoN's child, she has decided that most of those people aren't intelligent enough to even bother listening to her, never mind actually understanding her inner landscape. With that being the case, how on earth are they supposed to HELP her? Unfortunately, my own experience is mixed enough that I can't unilaterally tell her that such a view is incorrect. Some of the time it IS correct-- been there, done that. I have wasted months of sessions with someone who just plain wasn't 'getting' me well enough to be of any use whatsoever.

(My apologies to any mental health professionals present or reading.)

I am with the others and wondering if "something happened". It doesn't take much with a guy to have it really blown out of proportion in the brain of a 14 year old. To go really safe with younger kids makes me think that.

And those academic peers are at an age where they are experimenting with a lot of stuff, chemical, physical. I would think exposure would be overwhelming for a 14 year old.

This is the thing we all struggle with and write about on this forum. The younger kid who can handle the academic but is thrown into the social lives of kids years older. When I skipped, there were others around me in the same state. Being the only kid that age in an setting like school must be very difficult.

Good luck.

She is a lovely girl-- not particularly behind in development, so she looks like a pretty girl somewhere between age 13 and 17. I don't think that she's so appealing/attractive that she is seen as a threat to her friends' romantic interests...


though...

hm. She IS blonde and blue-eyed, she is leggy and slim, she is petite but curvy, and appealing socially. She also does have that... something... that draws people to her.

Might have to think on that one. Hadn't fully considered it, but it's a possibility. This would explain a few other things that I didn't post.

(Please don't quote the following)

She tends to "hide" in her attire, readily choosing oversized, gender-neutral clothing, covering up a lot of skin (which is fine, but not when it seems burka-like in intent, YK?), but at the same time, she still has this other streak of wanting to be "pretty" and look attractive and even a little bit sexy (but not more than age-appropriate, IMO). Both things seem to have intensified since being burned by the mentally unstable peer and an age-mate that STILL stalks her occasionally nearly a year after she broke things off with him...

She has now decided that one of her friends is her "girlfriend." Which I think is a beard (for both girls, my DD13-14, and the friend, also 14-15), and so does my DH. There's absolutely nothing physical between the two of them, and BOTH of them are hiding from the interest of adolescent boys, in my opinion. Until January, she definitely seemed to be following a heterosexual developmental curve. She has also NOT been eager to spend time with this young woman in person, being completely content to spend hours on Skype with her (very different from the boys she has been involved with).

We've been fairly matter of fact about this revelation/announcement, and basically accepted it at face value and added that the rules aren't different in a same-sex romantic relationship. I have cautioned that she should not lock herself into a sexual orientation/gender-identity before she's ready in any case, and that there is a lot out there which is part of a spectrum of human existence, but reassured her that wherever she falls on it is fine, and that we love her unconditionally.

******************* (end quote-free zone)



Fear of the future.... hm.

DEFINITELY a possibility in my mind. To the point that I actually wondered if she wasn't deliberately self-sabotaging the SAT in an effort to do "bad enough" that we'd delay college or something. Possible. Yes.

At the same time, like most adolescents, she regularly makes hash of her dad and I because we don't treat her the way she wishes. (How would that be? Do the words "As you wish" mean anything? LOL. In other words, she's a pretty typical 12-16yo girl in terms of her interactions with us. She is just WAY brighter than most of them. ) She wants autonomy... but... with... servants.

When our DD16 was in sixth grade, she was supposed to read books older than high school - according to her aptitude. I went to her teacher and asked if she could read "popular" books more around her grade level. At this point, we had proved that she could read almost anything. She read books that the other children were reading and it made her happy and gave her something in common with others her age.

It has not "ruined" her reading or anything. It was just a small way for her to fit in.

She's terrified of the physical demands of romantic entanglements.

Rightly so, unfortunately. Her LOG just means that she has a way of wrapping her head around the danger there.

Maybe that's it. That and the permanence/loss of her teenaged years which seems to be looming ever larger in her head.

She feels as though she "isn't prepared" for college, though in reality I suspect she's probably OVER-prepared, if anything, given how we've chosen to slow her down.

This is what we have always done, too.

It's only been recently that DD has stopped reading at her level, and begun making noises of "it's too hard for me" and "I don't know that word" which ring so false.

It's as though she's decided that having something in common socially isn't enough anymore-- she has to actually try to choke the life out of that more proficient/advanced reader and actually BE a typical 13yo consumer of literature and media.

(Of course, she still hates Justin Bieber, so I think we're safe there at least...)

I wondered about this too.

To be honest, I wouldn't over-think this situation too much. I suspect part of this is very normal-age-related behavior - trying to fit in somewhere and experimenting with different places/groups to fit in with. I'd try my best to expose her to other groups of kids - whether younger, older, or same age - because the one thing I've noticed with the kids we've been around is the type of behavior you're observing from the *other* kids is most likely less related to how smart your dd is or how far ahead she is academically than it is related to how any one particular group of children socializes in general - some groups of kids are very kind and welcoming, others tend to bully or make fun etc. I am in no way a gender-biased person, but in the limited number of sample groups my own family has had the chance to experience so far... the drama and emotion etc seem to be much more prevalent among the girls OUr experience has also been that the behaviors of the children in groups varies quite a bit based on how the adults that surround those children are modelling behavior and whether or not an emphasis has been placed on inclusiveness and understanding and kindness.

Soooo... my thought is to let go of the worries over SAT scores and not worry about whether or not your dd is, at this moment in time with some groups of kids, appearing to "dumb down" to fit in, or what the age of the kids is - but instead focus on getting her exposed to different groups of kids - through a camp or through a special-interest group or through a class or whatever. Accept that it may take a few tries to find a group that she is comfortable in and wants to be a part of.

The other thing I'd focus on is keeping communication open between yourself and your dd - which I suspect from having read your posts here, you do a very good job of already Also keep in mind she, as an individual, may not have the same needs/wants/desires in relationships that you do - I know you know that intellectually but as a parent myself, I find that a bit difficult to accept at times

About finding a counselor - I'm not so sure that even if you could find a good fit counselor this is a situation that really needs it as much as it is a somewhat typical stage most teens go through (impacted of course by your dd's high intelligence). We've had similar frustrations finding a good counselor fit - I don't personally think it's related to intelligence of the counselor vs counselee (is that a word lol?) as much as it is a function of how all of us, as human beings, counselor or not, are seeing the world through our own set of filters. When my kids were younger and I sat in on a few counseling sessions, I often felt that the counselor was going to apply their own ideas about what was up no matter what my child said... so instead of paying someone to listen and help my child come up with independent solutions, I was paying for a canned treatment - which is usually not what people seek out counseling for. I realize this isn't true for all mental health professionals (and most likely only applies to a fraction)... but it definitely makes for a challenge trying to find a counselor, particularly for our children.

Best wishes,

polarbear

Thanks for all of the great perspectives on this. I love this place; you're the only group that I can ask this of where the FIRST (and probably only) answer doesn't involve "how could you not think you were ruining your DD's life by accelerating her 3+ years...)

I think that this is some... thing... compounded by the drama associated with being a high-test variety of adolescent, hormonal girl.

She definitely seems uncomfortable and a little lonely when in a mixed-age group... as though she would LIKE to be accepted by the older kids, but knows better than to try to engage with them (her perspective, mind-- I've not personally SEEN much in the way of rejection there, just bewilderment occasionally).

It's as though she's responding to a perception of a no-win situation with typical adolescent over-reaction or something.

Yes, she should have some better experiences this summer during her internship (which is a feeder program for INTEL competitors).

Obviously the situation has many different variables and is not simple to understand, but my reading of the situation from afar has me sensing that she is perhaps deliberately manipulating (not in a bad way, so maybe a better word might be changing) her social situations and her behavior in those situations in a experiment to see what happens when you mix different variables.

Is it a result of the looming college scene and her entry into a more grown-up world? Probably, in some ways. Perhaps she's at a point where she is actually solidifying and accepting who she is, and verifying her actual identity by trying out others just to rule them out. My guess is that, being as smart as she is, she has always been a very analytical person, and she is now applying this trait to testing out her social identity.

I completely understand why you're worried. She is not a cookie-cutter kid and her life beyond high school is looming for you, too. She probably doesn't fit in as completely herself anyway, anywhere. But then again - and maybe most importantly - none of us truly do. We all modify ourselves to fit into whatever situation we are in. She just has a bigger mismatch to account for, and she's 14. So, I suspect most of it is typical teenage angst, but on a bigger scale. And perhaps she's questioning who will be there for her as she moves into new territory as she approaches monumental life changes that come with the end of high school.


FWIW, your DD seems to me to be very self-aware and, while she feels tremendous anxiety about some things, I think it's a good sign that she is aware of it. And, even though she doesn't always want to figure it out with you (and what teenager wants to, honestly) it sounds to me like she knows you are there for her and will be there for her no matter what.

I just reread this thread and I think this is possibly the explanation for the baggy clothes, the relationship with the girlfriend, and wanting to be around younger kids. She is protecting herself, hiding herself, trying not to be noticed. Not that this is the case, but from what you have alluded to with regards to the older boy, this sounds awfully similar to what victims of sexual abuse do to protect themselves. Again, not saying that she was abused, but you have said that it was a very damaging situation.

Also, she probably is right about most psychologists - she probably does think in a much more complex way than most of them. Which is disheartening when you are crying out for someone to "get" you. Of course, it's also a hallmark of teenagers to feel misunderstood. Is there any adult with whom your daughter feels a mentor-mentee relationship who might be willing to get together with her more just to hang out and talk?

Another thought that might help relieve some of the pressure she may be feeling either about college or college-age relationships: Can you come up with one or two other alternatives to her moving directly from high school to college, that might buy her some time to grow more comfortable with the idea of advancing? Could she apply to colleges with the rest of her classmates but then delay enrollment for a year or two to work or travel or just unschool? I know that comes with other issues (math progression being one that immediately enters my mind), but maybe just the idea that she has options will release a bit of the pressure she may be feeling (but still encourage her to do well on the SAT and in school so she does have options).

Of course, I haven't reached this situation yet as my rising 8th grader is just 11, so take my advice for what it's worth!

She sounds like a normal 14 year old.

Some spin from personal parallels from that age... small chance this is exactly her scenario but it may be another consideration....

Perception of less intelligence in younger kids is perfectly acceptable as that is the expected norm. It is hard to accept your own perception of dullness in people your age. In one year it is a new social environment and new social circles, likely with more people closer in intellectual interest and capability. The summer internship will functionally be a sneak peek at the other side of the septic tank.

Why set herself up for social and emotional separation with friends that she likely won't retain perhaps even through the summer and definitely not come time for college? It can be unkind and disingenuous to start those friendships now. Similarly even with dating, if you know in yourself what criteria you have, and the purpose of dating is to "test" people out then that is also disingenious.

Intelligent, principle-based living combined with adolescent urges can make things pretty confusing. Also, you can't even explain it, because to put it to words undermines the position and makes the whole thing seem a bit of a fraud.

I agree with kcab about peers but isn't there also help from DYS? This is a big issue for any PG multi-skipped kid. Perhaps there is guidance from them?

I was just having the teen conversation with two moms this morning. One mom has kids in their 20s, one 11 & 13 and me with an 8 year old.

The one in the middle just had a son go to a barmitzvah and come home drunk. She talked about social sites apps. Kids are creating these. One called fm or something is where kids post anonymously anything about another kid. And her kids are good, active, sports oriented. There are so many things going on out there. And no matter how smart you are, emotionally you are still a teen.

I hope this passes without too much discomfort HK.

You know, maybe some thoughtful books on gender issues would be helpful. I have a horrible memory of exactly what all of it was about, but I do remember Virginia Woolf's A Room of One's Own discussing gender identity to some extent and from a different-than-traditional perspective. Perhaps it's worth a look. I also thought there was some stuff (maybe essays on the Davidson site??) about gender identity in the gifted, along the lines of some gifties tend to find traditional gender roles identity distasteful (just the female/male role stuff, mainly; not as far out there as transgender, etc.). I hope she can work through this in a positive way.

I suspect this particular problem/issue is exogenous and not endogenous.

Well phrased.

The closest parallel to her current experience I had in my own life was my sophomore year in HS, when I had a number of friends 2+ years older (some were on what was jokingly called "the five-year plan" at our then 3-year HS). And one thing I can tell you is that, though these older friends were awesome in that they were very accepting of me and never treated me as a little kid, I could never shake the feeling that they were superior to me because they were older, because they were doing things that I had no experience with/was not ready for, and that I may be intruding to a certain degree.

Of course, this is where personality kicks in, because though I may have felt something like what your DD appears to be feeling, the response was very different. I love a challenge, and so my response was an I'm-going-to-keep-hanging-around-with-these-people-until-someone-tells-me-to-stop sort of thing.

Taking on any kind of leadership role among this group was pretty much a non-starter. To explore that, there had to be age peers. There was just no way to shed the subordinate feeling with older kids, even when there was no justification for it.

The biggest difference between myself and the older kids, naturally, was with their sexual relationships. I'm sure the kids in my group were FAR more promiscuous than your DD's group (5 year plan vs. AP students), but as a younger boy there was never any reason for anyone to try to insinuate me into that activity, because all the older girls were looking for older boys. Your DD's experience, as you've already seen, WILL vary. Put me in the camp who sees avoiding older kids plus trying too hard to fit into her age cohort plus dressing in burlap plus girlfriend roleplay equals your DD running fast and far from that sort of thing... a very natural reaction, IMO.

I see reasonably attractive 14yo girls getting leered at by grown men all the time, and I'm sure your DD has noticed that, too. So there's going to be a sense of vulnerability there all the time. Her behavior could be a response to that, as well.

As a male, I have no insights to share with you on how to help her overcome any of this. All I can share is my insights on where I think the problem lies.

Maybe... pepper spray?

Indeed.

Dude, I know exactly what you're saying there.

I was the female version of you, apparently. Let's just say that you're not wrong about the female experience being profoundly different. (Scary thoughts for parents of girls, trust me...)

DD's trauma at the hands of an older peer seems to have put tendrils into that realm and made her terrified of... well, something.

Gosh, I sure wish that she were willing to work with a professional here. I worry terribly about her coping skills. It's a lot to manage for anyone, much less someone already trying to manage adolescence with a huge degree of asynchrony.

We worry that her socially-prescribed perfectionism lends itself all-too readily to maladaptive coping mechanisms. Guess I need to put my thinking cap on again and suggest a greater variety of positive coping skills. Home-brewed CBT, if you will.

This book has a Christian focus, something our OP may want to be aware of.

Haven't read it myself, but I have listened to their radio program a number of times and found them to give generally very sensible concrete advice on setting boundaries in relationships.

Actually religion gave me a thought... for exploring issues in a non-directed/self-empowered way, I'd suggest the Osho Zen Tarot (no relation) http://www.osho.com/Main.cfm?Area=magazine&Sub1Menu=tarot&Sub2Menu=oshozentarot

If it catches her bent, it has a way of prodding a person into accepting internal truths about how they view a situation. Here's an excerpt from a sample card on their site to give a sense of its insidiousness:

For one of you reading this, you know exactly what it means and better take it to heart.

Actually, it is also an interesting dialog starting tool.

This reminds me of the book The Master and His Emissary.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Master-His-Emissary-Divided/dp/0300188374

No worries at all. Advice and suggestions are definitely all accepted with an open mind and in the spirit with which they are offered.

We are Atheists, it's true-- but our DD is not, though she leans non-theistic in her eclectic worldview.

I do have some sense that this is about existential angst/depression and some sense of isolation due to being PG, plus that general disconnectedness that many adolescents feel (and which seems to be something of a developmental thing).

In Dabrowskian terms, I'd say this is a disintegration in progress.

Not sure what to do about it, however, or how to offer her any guidance. Not even sure that a mental health professional would have very good guidance if I'm right about causation.

The Zen suggestion is a good one. I think that I know precisely what that means, actually... But I'm Taoist in philosophy and have been for decades, so Zen often makes a great deal of sense to me.

I think that guided meditation, Zen (or related) quotes/philosophy, and art-therapy (again, the DIY variety where DD retains autonomy of the process) might be a good way to approach things with her.

Well, I suppose that she could also try a vision quest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vision_quest

However, I can't say that I *recommend* extremely unique fasting-induced experiences.

I'm probably the only person who has ever *accidentally* done this.

However, I can certainly now understand why native Americans did this. Because it apparently does work. Not that I could do it again, even if my life depended on it.

Kids: Don't try this at home.

HowlerKarma --

I'm a little late on this thread. Have you made any progress with sorting through all of this?

I logged on today to see if there were any recent threads regarding existential angstiness or depression, and this conversation caught my eye.

My take, fwiw: When you're around 13, the need to fit in and belong takes center stage. It overtakes all the other variables. When you're outside the norm intellectually, you're already set up to feel your "differentness" acutely. It can be painful. So, maybe you flop around from one group to another, trying on identities to search out that sense of belonging your psyche craves so strongly. Maybe you blame your otherness on being gifted, so you try to deny it a little bit.

My experience: I was one of the two smartest kids in my grade throughout elementary school. When I hit the end of fourth grade, it became socially detrimental. In sixth grade, a classmate told me that when I got a B on a math test, it made me seem more human and normal, and he was nice to me. A lightbulb went on! In seventh grade, a six year experiment in personal social engineering began.

I tried: going with boys two grades younger, going with a high school dropout, hanging out with the "freaks", hanging out with my creepy grown-up fast food manager, hanging out with the "brains", hanging out with the skaters, getting really, really drunk.....all while maintaining honor roll status despite my best efforts. I'm not sure if there is anything a well-meaning adult could have done or said to alter this course --- although perhaps that vision quest may have helped.

In the end, I returned to my roots. I accepted my geeky nature and settled down and produced geeky offspring of my own. And the cycle continues...

I wish you all the best in helping your daughter through this interesting and tumultuous time in her life.

Kitty

GLK, I think this is probably not the kind of problem which can be solved over a long weekend or anything, and we have even more evidence that she is doing some experimenting (?? at least that is what we hope that it is) with other maladaptive coping.

Her crowd runs into variety as well-- the geek/nerd kids (she basically has close friendships with the top 0.5% of yesterday's graduating high school class), the gamer/emo crowd, and the social rejects, I guess I'd call them. That latter descriptor, by the way, is lovingly intended, as I hung with that group a lot of my high school career, too.

Anyway-- perfectionism + abuse + emo culture...

toxic cocktail, pretty much. Her girlfriend apparently has reported "cutting" behavior to her mom, which she then reported to ME. I thanked her, and I wasn't terribly surprised, but I've not seen evidence that it is a significant issue, more of a sporadic/exploratory thing, if that makes sense.

So I've opened a non-confrontational dialogue with her about it, using proxy constructs in order to keep her from HIDING the behavior (which we obviously do not want).

Keeping her busy definitely seems to help.


I still can't quite figure out how it all fits together, though-- how much is genuinely endogenous versus how much is a response to external forces.

Being 14 really is awful, isn't it? I had repressed it, or maybe just hoped that my memories of this point were warped.

HowlerKarma,

just about everything your daughter is experiencing I endured as well--along with the unimaginably humiliating "Lord of the Flies" rejection scene. It still hurts like hell, but one day your daughter will understand that she is doing nothing wrong. Her nature as a PG individual WILL make her stand out and make it harder to fit in with the rest of the crowds in HS. I did the experimenting as well due to depression, along with excessive school-skipping. It is good that you are facing and addressing this problem with you DD now though.

I PROMISE you things will get better.

Extra thoughts:

1. your daughter will not have to deal with the metaphorical "cannibalism" present in "Lord of the Flies" if she can realize that "fitting in" pales in comparison to other things in life--i.e. self-fulfillment, research projects, meeting a significant other who understands you, etc.

2. She will thank you one day, and she will come back to her ordinary self in time. It's part of the identity vs. role confusion stage.

Cutters are generally "annoying" to me, as opposed to being a serious, disabling, problem. Generally, that's the least of the problems with the people I deal with.

It's just a stupid way to cope as far as I can tell.

Hello HowlerKarma,

I have been reading this thread with great interest. I am a 31-year-old PG male (identified as an adult), currently finishing my doctorate in clinical psychology with an emphasis in neuropsychology.

In reading about your DD, I couldn't help but feel the need to throw in my own two cents, as I happen to be both PG and gay. First, your DD may or may not be truly gay. From what I have gathered, this very well may be experimentation or a reaction to that interpersonal trauma with the older boy. On the other hand, it is not outside the realm of possibility that this is truly who she is. Just as the experience of being PG can be profoundly alienating, so can the experience of being gay. Being both PG and gay can send an adolescent straight into an abyss.

I wish that my parents had acknowledged who I was when I was your DD's age and had assured me that being gay was perfectly acceptable. (You may have already done this with her.) Instead, my parents tried to subtly and kindly steer me away from it. I could acutely feel that they were hoping it was just a phase, which was very painful and rejecting despite their loving intentions.

The good news is that if she is in fact not gay, she will realize this in time. Your reassurance about being gay will in no way solidify a gay identity in her if she is not biologically wired to be so. On the other hand, if she truly is gay, your reassurance and acceptance will mean the world to her. So, in my opinion, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain by openly addressing this with her and reassuring her.

I realize that this advice was unsolicited, and I hope that I have not offended you.

Best Wishes.

Awful indeed! Seeing your child go through this age is Hard.

Do you mean that your daughter is cutting, or is it her girlfriend? For most kids who experiment with it, it usually runs its course after just a few incidents.

That's what we're hoping.

My suspicions are that her maturity hasn't yet caught up to her reality (which is still not as much demand cognitively as we'd have LIKED) and therefore, her brain is looking for things to do because it is boooooooooored, and her maturation is such that she's not always as firmly in the driver's seat as she (or we) would like.

I'm fairly chagrined to admit that this is basically my response, too.

When it's your own child, on the other hand, that feels kinda-- er,

callous. You do know that you have REAL problems, don't you? I can MAKE real problems for you to work on if you like, you know... or you could maybe worry about your R.E.A.L. problems... I could give you a list of things to REALLY work on... otherwise? Yeah-- suck it up, Buttercup.

I'm not ordinarily much of a Spartan mom. This just struck me as... a hobbyist level self-destructive thing, mostly a self-pity related expression of angst. My impulse is to tell her to get over it, which isn't helpful.

I'm tempering THAT impulse with the angel of my better nature, which realizes that this isn't exactly a normal response to stress.

14/15 was probably one of the highest points in my life. 16/17 was, as well.

My low point was probably 19-23 (once the complete ordered structure of school was removed and I failed to create my own self-regulating structure).

My 20's and 30's have been pretty miserable, but stable, meaning that I can keep basic functions going. Definitely not enjoyable or pleasant in any way, but nowhere near as bad as college/law school.

Which is why I'm often confused when people say "things get better".

I suppose they get better if you are able to form meaningful relationship and find something that you actually have an interest in doing.

A lot of these helicopter kids are going to end up in real trouble later once the structure dissolves.

Whereas, HK's kid will probably be just fine, as long as she gets bored with her cutting hobby and doesn't descent into something worse.

I even had a client recently who OD'd on medication, and got sent to the psychiatric hospital. Where she really enjoyed herself and had a good time. Not surprisingly, her mother was somewhat concerned about the positive psychic payoff from this.

Pulling this up to update.


1. The "girlfriend" thing was apparently a short-lived phase. Not sure if this was actually gender-identity/orientation related, or if it was individual-specific. Either way "not a true peer" seems to have been the case in this instance, which made the relationship, such as it was, an ephemeral one to begin with.

2. One thing which I'd suspected early on, but didn't really feel at liberty to discuss, was that the GF was apparently eliciting a cry for help of her own with the "I have this friend who is cutting" schtick. In other words, I think that my DD was experimenting based on advice (??) from this friend/love interest. We've limited the interaction between the two girls-- not overtly (that often backfires with a kid like mine) but covertly and naturally. DD has-- truthfully-- sort of outgrown her, if she ever really 'fit' well to begin with (other than feeling "safe").

3. Internship WAS the ticket out, actually-- things have improved light years from six months ago merely as a result of that collegiate experience.

4. We were concerned with DD self-labeling and limiting her gender/orientation prematurely-- luckily, she seems to be keeping things open there, and has apparently acquired a new admirer who is a male classmate. She is now regarding the abusive male peer as-- well, a pathetic little turkey, which is a relief to us, because she was downright terrified of him for a very long time.



In other related news, we aren't sure how thrilled we are about the fact this new beau is nearly 18, and DD is just 14. Now, he KNOWS how old she is, and apparently her brains are the appeal for him.

Being HG+, however, means that my DD is quite thoughtful and sophisticated in her understanding of the situation.

This is leading to some very peculiar conversations about things like statutory rape law, however, and what exactly constitutes breaking such laws, and what the particulars are of R&J clauses within our state. Conversations that would be BEYOND weird if not for the situation of having a 15yo college freshman on my hands in less than a year. KWIM? She was extremely reassured to learn that nobody is going to be labeled a sexual predator merely for holding her hand or taking her out for pizza. Just the same, I think that I'm relieved that it appears that they won't be headed to the same college.


Radical acceleration... weird, weird places this journey is taking us.

HK, when I was 15 and a freshman in high school, my boyfriend was 19 and a Ph.D. candidate, and we were sneaking around having sex without my parents' knowledge. (They knew about the boyfriend, just not about the sex.) For better or for worse, girls (or boys, but I think girls are more at risk) can end up "accelerated" socially as well as intellectually. I have no advice for you, but plenty of sympathy.

The funny part is that the relationship died a natural death as I realized that he wasn't really as mature as I was.

It's a point that all parents should really be aware of with HG kids even if they aren't accelerated, truthfully. I wasn't accelerated, but my own history is enough to scare me plenty.

The reason why I'm so... er...


conversant (ahem) on this area of the state code?

At fifteen I met Spouse 1.0 (the beta version), who was 22 at the time. Rather than letting the relationship die its natural death-- when I turned 19, I made the colossal error of marrying him. (ouch) My similarly gifted BFF married HER spouse at 19, too-- he's eleven years her senior.

So I'm well aware of what DD is up against. I was also a very pretty but far too smart "trophy" for guys my own age, and frankly, not a few of those considerably older than me, too. Looking back, most of the guys my own age were looking at me as "unattainable" and "out of their league" rather than painfully lonely and awkward.

Unfortunately, being a smart girl is really only okay in this particular venue if you also happen to be a slutty girl. Of course, they still don't like you for YOU, exactly... so I don't really recommend THAT either. Otherwise, prepare yourself to be persona non grata for a very long, and painful period of time unless you are willing to toady to a lot of troglodytic ego and coo audibly while batting your eyelashes. {sigh}

The underlying relationship between these two teens is mutual deep respect (neither gives it lightly, nor suffers fools gladly) and affection that transcends the fascination of the moment. They've known one another for over four years now. I wonder if he's been waiting for her to grow up a bit, honestly. A third youngster was at one time my DD's first "boyfriend" (actually a mutual crush) a couple of years back-- so it's also possible that this was guy dynamics of "my friend's girl" or something.

It reassures me that DD is a good enough friend to her potential beau to be concerned front and center about getting him into trouble. She is quite conscientious and loyal to a fault-- she'd be devastated if consensual activity resulted in horrible consequences for a partner via the legal system, and she knows that until she is sixteen, it's AUTOMATIC (that is, not at OUR discretion to press charges or not) outside of the bounds of the R&J clause in our state, which is a 3y spread in age. This is just at the edge of that... and probably would be considered differently since they have been classmates for so long (and are effectively "peers") but you also just never know below 16yo. Well, she knows that now, anyway. What's funny is that she was truly concerned that just being an ITEM would be enough to draw the attention of law enforcement. (LOL) No, honey-- nobody is going to jail for taking you out for a pizza or holding your hand on a walk. Man, am I ever glad that DH wasn't the one at the helm of the car when she mused about it, though. I'm more unflappable in the moment-- I was freaking out inside, but said, cool as you please; "Talk to me about this" rather than just driving off the road screaming when she mentioned statutory rape in a musing tone of voice.

She has to be responsible enough to have the "swapping spit" conversation first, anyway. Unfortunately that one cannot ever really be spontaneous the way it can for most teens, because of the severity of her food allergies. LOTS of trust there for her-- it's an automatic litmus test for a partner. She's rejected all advances there thus far on the basis of "this isn't someone I trust that much." That ties into the trust and respect issue for her, too, and makes it hard for her to pretend to herself. People who truly "get" it well tend to be very very bright.

All I can say is that I'm cheering for you, HK. Truthfully, I wouldn't want to parent myself which, in many ways, you seem to be doing. (Though, I'm sure, that particular chicken will come home to roost in good time for yours truly...)

I was going to say, what would worry me is when your DD starts graduate school at 18 or 19. By then, she's be financially semi-independent on a fellowship and there won't be much you could say or do to stop her from making choices she'd most likely regret later.

But you don't have to seriously worry about this for 3+ years. For now, it's wonderful to hear that she seems to be in a meaningful and healthy relationship. He's very lucky.

Oh, believe me, when you have a teenaged daughter, you worry.

With the type of oppositional/autonomous child I have, the amount of actual control that I can exert over her decision-making is far less than I'd sometimes WISH.