Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Advocacy for Early College Entrance

Our son is ready for college. He's already been successful and enjoyed taking several college level courses through places like Coursera, EdX etc. He is currently in 7th grade and homeschooled. He has the ACT scores (28 composite with highest of 32 in science) on his first attempt. I'm interested to know how others have navigated advocacy for early college entrace and worked to overcome the following challenges:

1) High school subjects (time) requirements: Has attending AP classes or taking AP tests helped?
2) 4-6 semesters or 2 years of English seems to be the minimum requirement. Is there another form of qualification that suffices?
3) College admission contact person: Is there a person or department in Universities that may be the right first contact? I have spoken with admissions people from a couple of Univerisities and they are typically unable to direct further and appear to look to check off the basic requirements only.
4) College and High school concurrent enrollment: Is there a best case scenario as to how to approach this topic and with whom?

These are some of the main questions I am currently dealing with and having trouble navigating. I'd appreciate any and all input for group members.

Thank you.

Sending you a Private Message.

You might want to start with duel enrollment at your local community college.

He is currently in 7th grade and homeschooled.

Okay, but if he's taking college coursework and is 'ready for college' then he's not a seventh grader, n'est pas?

Do you mean that he of an AGE to be a 7th grader?

Or that in some particular interest areas, he is ready for college-level work?


Or do you mean that he is, in a broad sense, ready to be enrolled as a regular college student?


Those things require very different approaches.

If he's a gifted 7th grader with an area of profound gifts and needs basically subject acceleration, then start with the appropriate department person at a local college-- or better still, at a community college (they'll be more open to homeschooled students doing this in a lot of locations). That may not require a general admission process.

If he's truly ready for college as a regular freshman student, then you're going to need to locate the person at the college who handles VERY young college entrants. There is usually someone. It's complicated because of concerns about safety/liability in some coursework and dorm settings, etc. They may want to meet with him (and you) to determine whether or not he possesses the maturity to be independent in that setting or not.

I would, however, STOP referring to him as a 7th grader in that case. Because if he's mastered the material expected of high school students, then say that an emphasize that he is a homeschooled student who is ready for post-secondary work.

In that case, what each college will want as documentation of his completion of some kind of high school curriculum is going to vary-- but you'll need to determine that by referring to your child as a "homeschooled" student who is finished with high school level work.

HTH-- Good luck!

Thank you for your response, HowlerKarma. This makes a lot of sense. Just to clarify he is classified as a 7th grader for the online school work he does, which is for the purpose of transcripts, but chronologically a 4th grader.

I am interested in the full time college enrollment as a first choice and dual enrollment as second.

I am just curious--(having considered early college i.e. Mary Baldwin for dd12, and thankfully now after moving we have an excellent public high school option that will meet her needs no longer considering it)--why are you interested in full time college now?

For me, dual enrollment worked best at a young age (around your ds's age). I was able to stay with students a few years older than me as a base grade and still participate in homeschool/regular school functions (usually much more demanding at the college level--whether it's intramural sports or the university play...). There's a lot more writing at the college level, which was an issue for me (lab notebook, composition class) as a student that young. It worked better to take 1-3 courses a semester to supplant what I was learning in my homeschool/regular school accelerated courses, and I still was able to matriculate as an upper classman when I was a bit older and ready for a full courseload of classes (and chose to attend a more rigorous university). Anyway, that was just my experience with it. There are other ways to do it, especially if you live close to schools with programs for young students.

Ahhhh. Well, in that case, I suspect that a college admissions officer's answer is going to be "you've tried middle school work-- maybe you need to accelerate further into demanding secondary courses at a higher level." Because you're going to (probably) need external validation for the fact that your child already has MASTERY of the entire high school curriculum.

Four years of English literature and composition, four years of math (through calculus, probably), four years of science (including biology and physical science with labs), four years of social studies (including civics/government, history etc), and at least two years of foreign language.

The problem with even very high SAT/ACT scores is that they don't really monitor about half of that.

You could try some SAT subject tests, I suppose.

But you say that he's taken AP coursework? What were his AP exam scores like? Or did you mean would that be sufficient?

Here's the thing. At your position, we were very much in the same boat. My DD was pretty much melting down over the fact that schoolwork was stultifying/mind-numbing.


But high school has been different. It's the greater pressure for extracurriculars (which she has developed a real passion for) and also the greater VOLUME in terms of expectations.

We filled with community ed classes in areas of interest while she was your son's age-- taken side-by-side with a parent, just because it was easier that way. For those, which were ungraded, she just needed individual instructor approval, which was always forthcoming once they'd met her and us.

The other thing I want to be sure to add is that you are very very right to not just make him "tough it out" for years and years with material that is so inappropriate.

Are you using a virtual school or are you homeschooling? If it's the former, do you mind noting if you're with one of the big nationals like K12 or Connections? We've been with the latter-- and honestly, I'm glad that we didn't bail and send DD to college when she was in middle school (chronologically 5th grade) when we strongly considered it.

Honors and AP coursework has been able to-- with extracurriculars-- somehow be "appropriate" for her. No, the work itself isn't all that challenging... but it also doesn't take her eight hours a day, which I think is too much for a 10-13yo. Given the greater volume of written work as you go up in level (we've seen this even with AP), that is a serious concern for PG kids.

So. She's not with true peers-- but then again, sending her to college won't put her with very many of them either. She's with the top 1% of her graduating class, and they are 3-4 years older than she is. Most of them need 8-9 hr to manage her courseload, but she does not. It frees her up to do other things. If she were taking four or five college classes, that workload would be higher, and would cut into her free time. A lot. I want her to have time to just be a young teenager.

The other advantage to running through high school graduation requirements (which you can probably do in 3y if the school is willing to work with you) is that yes, it gives you (parents) a little more breathing room, but it also makes college admissions easy. Well, not "easy" with a kid well under 16, but you know. Once they have a diploma and the test scores, there's pretty much no way for them to say no.

Dual enrollment credits are also accepted onto high school transcripts by most schools where I am-- and certainly by Connections.

That's the other route that I'd explore. Try a community ed class and see what your child's comfort level is. Turns out that for my DD, she felt like a "little kid among grown ups" and it was borderline uncomfortable for her-- because they TREATED her like a kid. She wasn't truly part of the peer group in that setting, which was disappointing.

KWIM?

I know this is a HOT topic. Personally I do NOT advocate full enrollment in college at this age for even the brightest. First just because he can do well on a college assessment does not mean he has all the skills necessary for college level classes. My husband started taking college classes at 14 (at Stanford, this was in late 70's & his parents lived in town), but only in math. This was long before EGPY or online college courses. My in-laws decided to keep him in regular classes and only accelerate where necessary. I WENT to college with an 11 year old boy, and that was a huge disaster in the end. He was NOT socially really to be in college. After getting his BA in math he went back to junior high. (LONG story for another time)

For home schoolers there are lots of great options online for him to take high school/college classes and to be challenged while still being a kid. One huge advantage of the internet. One example is standford EGPY where your son can take college courses. There are many great gifted summer programs. Perhaps he can take a class or two at a local community college. Have you seen, http://www.aleks.com/. (Disclaimer I know the people behind this program)

I want to also ask the question. WHY? What is the goal at having him in college now?

Good questions and I really appreciate the great input. It is my son who has done his research and is quite clear that 4 years more is just too long. He will need to work on the History, Politics, Econ and writing, but Math, Biol, Chem, Physics, Calc, Algebra are college level. I recognize there will be no easy match for social peers in college, but have observed far better interaction with college age and level of maturity than high or middle school kids.
We don't have great high school options where we live. There are a couple of community colleges that do a good job at dual enrollment, so this is why I'd like to think of that as a second option.
Long term college entry is a better option than dual enrollment. The exit age will be legal with career plans and program of interest.

Good question- Why? Well, in short the other options are not as good for this particular character and based on where we live and laws. He has found college students far easlier to connect with than high schoolers or age peers. I'm for the community college dual enrollment option.

I'm curious about EPGY experiences as well. The costs a bit high and would like some input if you have ideas on value?

Thank you. Yes. New to DYS and will need to explore more.

The thing is, though-- and I am saying this as the parent to a 13yo high school junior doing AP and dual enrollment-- and also as a former college professor in a math-heavy STEM field...

the writing expectations even at those subjects are WAY beyond anything that your child has experienced. Ever. He's 9-10. He may THINK that he's ready-- but the odds are very, VERY good that he's wrong about that.


His interests and understanding may well be late-secondary/early-post-secondary. I get that, because as noted, I've had experience with the situation that you find yourself in.

Do take stock of whether or not there is ANY way that he can manage the volume, speed, and sheer level of the written expectations in a collegiate setting; those things are pretty extreme in terms of the differences from the middle school level material he's seen. It's a huge jump in expectations even from what honors high school kids have seen.

If it were my child (and I realize it's not) I'd probably be making a deal about doing a double skip into high school with an online school, and work with a counselor that understands that your child is PG-- and will LET him compress 2yrs into each of the next two.

If he can manage that, he's ready for college, and if he can't keep up with the output demands, at least you'll know.

It also allows you to subject accelerate as needed-- that is, if he gets into a AP physics and finds that it really isn't challenging enough to be worth the time he spends on it, then he can look for a college course locally that the school will allow him to substitute.

Advantages of that route are many and CLEAR.

a. Simplifies admission because at the end of that two years, he WON'T be a 'special' admit. He'll be a high school graduate with excellent ACT scores. As it stands, I think that you're going to have trouble with a regular admission-- he simply hasn't demonstrated that he has the background and ability to be a college student yet.

b. It teaches him something he's going to need to know in college-- how to just turn the crank and DO the work even when it's a lot of work for (seemingly) little gain. To do work that he doesn't FEEL like doing. More on this momentarily.

c. This is also a maturity issue at work. Again, I'm speaking from experience here. My DD was cognitively more than ready for college level material at 9-10yo. She was certainly reading textbooks in environmental science, history and biology then, and enjoying them thoroughly. She HATED the redundant, low-level teaching in her 7th-8th grade classes. But no WAY was she ready for the overall expectations of college otherwise. She didn't work on others' schedules, had serious self-motivational problems related to busywork, and the intervening few years have made a WORLD of difference in her written expression, in her critical reasoning in the social sciences, and frankly, in her life experience.

Yes. We have chosen to hold her at the level that her written expression can support. Why? Because we have both BEEN college educators, and we know what happens to kids that-- for no reason other than lack of maturity-- can't keep up there. They struggle, and can't show what they know very well. You are NOT going to get accommodations for that lagging written expression because it's asynchrony, not disability, unless I've misunderstood you.

All of that is why MY goal would be to make the process of getting that high school diploma tolerable somehow. That may be quite a tall order, and I'm very sympathetic.

Honestly? Your son isn't in a position to know what he doesn't know. He's nine or ten, right? He really cannot know what a full load of honors and AP high school coursework would be like. Agree to try a +2 skip and compacting before you agree to what amounts to a +6 year skip on the basis of a 9/10yo child (even a PG one) who is (probably rightly) in a horribly inappropriate school placement currently. I can tell you that the jump in expectations with Connections' curriculum as you move from honors/GT middle school into honors HS is about 25-30% more output, and that it's another 30-40% greater moving into AP-- which is STILL (IMO) not as demanding as most college coursework. BUT-- can he manage 200% of the output demands, 200% of the pacing, and the expectation that he has the written communication skills of someone who has just finished AP Composition as a high school senior and has spent four years in a laboratory science and has more than two years of a foreign language?
I understand that your son could more than handle 200% of the output demands currently placed on him. He understands that, too. He's HUNGRY to learn more of what HE wants to learn. I know-- I had this conversation with my DD at this age, too. She really thought that college was where she could "study what I want to learn." When I probed, I realized that this was my ten year old's childish logic talking. She had NO IDEA what a general education core or prerequisite coursework was going to do to that particular dream. When we informed her, she was pretty sulky, truthfully-- so college isn't the dream environment that a lot of PG middle schoolers think that it is. Besides, while my 10yo (and, oh, my goodness, my 13yo) can TALK a great, persuasive line, she is still just 13. She could give me quite the lecture about why she should be permitted to do all manner of things, but I'm not necessarily going to allow it just because she is so persuasive and eloquent, because she can't (yet) exercise the judgment of an adult.

You still have to do things that you think are pointless in college-- they're just a lot harder and more time-consuming. A collegiate environment also differs from that of secondary education in that there is an EXPECTATION of 100% independence and all of the privileges (such as transportation) that come with it. Does he have the maturity to manage that with the limitations that being 11-14 would impose? Mine certainly didn't. She's acquiring it-- and we HOPE that she'll be there by next June, when she's 14. The alternative is that Mom and Dad get to 'make' her do her freshman chem homework and sit with her while she goes to class, and sign waivers over lab class liability. Oy.

That probably isn't what you want to hear. But I think this is too big a step at once, and it also closes off the possibility of a truly elite college experience later-- which means that he's trading "not doing high school" for "also not meeting any true peers" because they probably will NOT be at the local community college, that's for sure. They are at Ivies and selective colleges.

There are PRIVATE online schools if a public charter isn't available in your state. I know for a fact that Connections can do what I've suggested to you, though they may cavil at first-- just insist that they let him TRY it and provide them with evidence of his ability. They've done it for us.

Of course-- common interests.

Have you considered pairing him up with a college-aged "mentor" who can just spend time geeking out on the subject with him? That is-- you pay for a "tutor" but the reality is that they just "play" together on the topics they both find interesting.

Wanted to throw in a couple things here, having a spouse teaching at the community college and having tried a semester at one as a rebound school, the material depth and coverge is so much lighter than a full university and the chance of intellectual peers outside of the faculty would be even lighter than in high school.

Since you are homeschooling anyhow, have you considered using the MIT Open Courseware?

Also just noting that if you haven't checked into local college costs (and, frankly, whether or not there is even SPACE for him at a local community college) EPGY may start to look a lot less expensive.



It was going to cost my DD $1200 to take two terms of German at our local college this past fall. Pre-calculus would have been similar, but she couldn't get a seat in the class.

Thank you. Your experience is very valuable and I appreciate the perspective. Lot's to consider. We haven't skilled any grades actually; more like compacting 8 grades over the past 4 years. I have not tried paying for the "tutor" but that's may be a great match for this situation!

We've used the MIT materials a few years now, Udacity and Coursera. I try not to overalap more than 2 courses. I find these a decent judge of capability with the exercises tests. MOOKS, I think are a great alternative as I can use their access as a treat in the work day.

I'm a HUGE fan of compacting for kids like this. That's exactly what we've chosen to do with our DD.

SHE, on the other hand, has sometimes been quite a reluctant participant. But a lot of that is that she "already knows" most of the curriculum... so while I'm sympathetic on that score, there is also plenty that she is learning that she DOESN'T yet know... and those meta-skills (like how to construct a reasonably coherent outline, a bibliography, MLA formatting, citations for different types of writing, how to write a lab report, how to ask for help from a teacher, etc) are what she is actually learning instead.

Those things are pretty valuable in and of themselves! We've not done a lot of out and out 'skips' because part of the social fabric of relating well to peers is about shared experiences. So skipping high school biology by testing out of it might have been an option, but then it leaves her as a college student without a way to "relate" to her classmates about the stuff that goes on in that class.

I have to disagree that MOOC's are actually a good measure of college readiness in and of themselves. They may be a reasonably good measure of readiness within a subject for advanced material in that subject-- but they are NOT the kind of synchronous participatory and output-oriented environment that a B&M course is. They have their own challenges, but they aren't directly comparable to the on-campus or hybrid class. (Yes, I've run through a couple of these and so has my DD-- just for fun.) I'd say that the MOOC is a lot more like one of two things--

graduate seminar classes, where most of it is about exploratory learning
community education classes-- basically no prerequisites, but they aren't really college-level in either critical thinking or in background knowledge expectations, and definitely not in terms of written output demand.

They also don't include the level of graded work that campus classes do-- which is, I suspect, the reason why you (or your DS) may be overlooking the written output demands of conventional college courses.

My DD consistently underestimates it, too-- it's not just you. We know (because of our background) but she doesn't.


If he's open to it, I might have him try an EPGY class or something else using a distance model through one of the big talent search centers such as CTY. He'd meet other HG+/PG kids that way, which is HUGE, and he'd also probably find the challenge a lot closer to what he needs.

We have not used EGPY at this point, so i can't personally recommend it. But it's plus is that it is a program DESIGNED for the highly gifted child. Regular college classes (especially community college) can be cookbook classes. Very light on the theory, and heavy on memorizing formulas. The biggest downside of EGPY is that it is very expensive & it doesn't provide your son with peers. (That is why I suggested summer programs, there are many around) There does seem to be a way to apply for financial aide, but I don't know how helpful it is.

Good Luck.

Thanks! Yes. CTY writing courses are excellent. We did a Stanford writing and database course and found them both really enriching for content althought those I did not push for the grade or homework as other classes were occuring concurrently. We will need to try EPGY. I think it is the only one we have not yet done. Excellent!

Yes. We do use the MIT and other open courseware and find them very useful.

Thank you CFK. Someone once told me (when I was a young undergrad) that you should never pay for Grad School. Always get funding. I've found this very good advice that has helped me along the way.

Thanks so much for this discussion. My DS is a bit younger, being 7 years old, however, we will soon find ourselves in these shoes and debating about what to do. So I really do appreciate the tips, articles, and information.

I spoke with a mother who has 4 pg kids! All of them in DYS. Her second child, I believe, is attending a (probably exclusive) prep school on a FULL scholarship ride. She said her DS13 isn't ready for college yet and that the prep school is a 'halfway house' situation for them. After she mentioned this to me, I looked into them for us. We're fortunate that we're in New England where there's prep schools galore and some of which offer free rides to particular candidates.

I don't know where you live, but perhaps a prep school might be an option?

I find myself in complete agreement with HowlerKarma. While you child may be intellectually ready for college, it's highly unlikely that your child has the faintest idea the other skills required to be successful at that level. Is it out of the realm of possibility? Of course not, however, highly unlikely.

Time management skills, computer skills (yes, I know youth are amazing these days but a semester course in MS Office makes a world of difference) leadership skills because there are still plenty of group projects in college, organizational skills, maturity level, social skills, and logistical skills all figure in greatly to the success of today's college student. The vast majority of students admitted to colleges have the intellectual ability to secure the degree they seek, it's the lack of skills I've mentioned in this paragraph that cause more college students to drop out than intellectual capacity.

My suggestion is to exhaust any and all possibilities of acceleration and duel credit options first. Many schools pay for duel credit courses as well. When your child can enter their Freshman year with all or nearly all of their Liberal Arts requirements finished and as well as some or all of their math requirements finished, they can look at double majoring with honors or distinction in 4-5 years.

I caution you on under estimating college. I've know a great many gifted students who cruised through HS and were bored out of their mind, only to feel they were hit like an axe between the eyes when they went to college. For some of them, that emotional trauma sent them in a downward spiral.