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    #150265 03/08/13 12:16 AM
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    My DS2 has just turned 12 months old, and he is quite clever. His mind is willing, but his body is yet to catch up. He is able to do a lot of things beyond his year, but some are tricky, like trying to put on his big brother's shoes and tie them up. He gets so frustrated and and I'll help him and put them on for him, but he gets angry and takes them off and tries again. Or with dangerous things, such as trying to put the fan's cord into the socket he pushes me a few metres away and goes back to it. He will not give up until he "puts it in" (there's a hole thing in the ground next to it that he thinks is the sockets).

    He is usually a very sweet, quiet baby, but when he can't do something he really wants to do, he has an amazing temper! I appreciate the quality of stubborness and determination, but it's getting a bit much. So, do I let him continue trying, despite the crying and temper; or do I distract him with something else? I don't want to put a damper on his natural strengths, but I worry about him as a two year old LOL.

    Thanks smile

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    Can you distract him with bags of chocolate?

    Whenever he throws a temper tantrum, just feed him a bar of chocolate.

    That way, he will learn to associate becoming frustrated and angry with being fed chocolate and whenever he wants chocolate, he can just express his temper.

    You know, now that I am actually writing this, I can see why it's not actually an ideal solution to this problem.

    In fact, it's a pretty bad solution as far as solutions go.

    I suppose this was why my wife never permitted me to use the "doughnut solution" to solve problems like this.

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    You may want to take a look at the parenting boards at mothering.com. There is one that is about parenting gifted children, and it does skew towards the younger ones.



    Stacey. Former high school teacher, back in the corporate world, mom to 2 bright girls: DD12 & DD7.
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    You can certainly try distracting him, but expect mixed results, because one of the hallmarks of a gifted kid is the ability to remain focused.

    For the behavior of pushing a parent away when she was trying to do something dangerous and we were trying to intervene, my DD got a warning, and then a timeout, beginning around 6 mos of age. I get funny looks from other parents when I say that, because they just don't get how a kid that young could possibly connect action and consequence. But she could. She could also process an age-appropriate explanation of why what she had been doing was a bad idea, once the tantrum passed.

    The end result was that her "terrible twos" weren't terrible at all, and were in fact quite delightful, because rather than spend the first two years of her life teaching her that fussy behavior was an effective tool to get what she wants, only to see rules inexplicably changed, she learned more constructive behaviors instead.

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    I liked the book, Raising Your Spirited Child when my oldest was around that age. At the time, I wasn't aware that she was gifted, just challenging (or "payback," as my mother put it). I believe that that book has some ideas for dealing with stubborn persistence.

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    Thanks for the suggestions. I don't use bribes or time outs, I stick with distraction. I guess I am wondering, if being determined and ambitious is part of his personality, then is it bad to distract him? Is it selfish to want to avoid the tantrums?

    Thanks, staceychev. I'll check it out.

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    Thanks, Cricket2 smile

    My eldest is gifted, and I remember him being as equally persistant as a baby, but he was so calm and patient. I recognise a lot of these abilities in my baby, so I could say with 99% accuracy that DS2 will be gifted, too. Just two different personalities. DS2 is such an easy going baby the rest of the time, his temper is surprising LOL.

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    Yup-- there really isn't any way to externally affect change in some people like this, squishys.

    DD has been like that from infancy, as well. She has only two speeds when her agenda and yours operate at cross purposes:

    a) you can't make me, and

    b) hell-bent-for-leather--DUCK AND COVER.

    DH and I have used the infamous line from Cool Hand Luke to describe her since she was a toddler--

    What we've got. here... is.. FAILURE... to... COMMUNICATE...

    Most of the time, she's angelic enough that nobody who hasn't seen that side of her would ever for a single second believe it. She never (not even at 9-22mo, in daycare) showed that side to outsiders, and seldom to anyone but DH and I.


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    Originally Posted by JonLaw
    Can you distract him with bags of chocolate?

    No no. The MOTHER gets the chocolate ;p (You know... coping mechanism.)

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    Surreptitiously provide means for them to practice bridging skills (barring the dangerous things where a sharp "Stop" may be needed even if it scares the livin' stuffing out of them, oops.)

    Trying to tie shoes? Make sure a jump rope appears somewhere they might encounter it and practice on a larger scale (and unobserved for my DS who is hyper aware of having an audience, in both ways.)

    Example, this morning before school DS7 discovers a video called "Calculus 1 in twenty minutes" and watched the whole thing. Now I need to find some much lighter weight pre-algebra thing that somehow implies it leads to calculus or work backwards into his own conclusion of something closer to his readiness level; maybe look at the Khan Academy knowledge map, etc.

    Because for us directly redirecting = failure

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    With dangerous things, I used a warning then time out starting at about 10months. Ds didn't like time out, so this method worked. As far as frustration stuff, I would try to intervene before the meltdown happened. Honestly, it has gotten better with age. What can still be a struggle is a battle of wills. This too is less frequent, but when it happens- wow watch out. Luckily for me ds2 is more easy going.

    Good luck and hang in there!

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    Thanks, everyone!

    Also, I don't use rewards, I believe in intrinsicly encouraging kids. And no chocolate until at least three!

    HK, our babies sound like twins smile

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    Oh, no way could I have lived without chocolate until my daughter was three. grin



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    Haha, that's what "after they're in bed" is for smile

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    Originally Posted by squishys
    Thanks, everyone!

    Also, I don't use rewards, I believe in intrinsicly encouraging kids. And no chocolate until at least three!

    HK, our babies sound like twins smile

    But chocolate is intrinsic.

    Once it's inside, the baby's stomach is intrinsically full of wholesome chocolaty goodness!

    And gifted children intrinsically age much faster than other children, so your baby is chronologically at least five.

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    This brings back memories. :-)

    If it was just frustration, we would ask if he needed help or gently provide suggestions, but not take over. If frustration morphed into what we called a "loop", which meant he spun into an obsessive tizzy from which no learning or personal recovery was possible, we tried to distract and if it failed removed him from the situation. (The loop was often a result of needing food or sleep also.). We would definitely distract if we thought a loop was likely.

    If it was a safety issue, he got one warning and then either a time out for him of 1 minute per year of age or removal of offending item for usually rest of day.

    If he threw something, he lost it immediately for an hour or more.

    It worked like a charm for us. At 18 months, we would take a deep breath and count to 10 but he could not say his numbers at 12 months.

    Edit: ...and when out of sight I ate tons of chocolate on some days... Still do...

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    If he's not hurting himself with the crying and temper, I wouldn't worry about it. He's frustrated because, as you say, his body hasn't caught up with his mind. It will be a problem for some time.

    DS as a baby would get so frustrated at not being physically able to do something his brain wanted to do, he would bang his head on the floor, the wall, the furniture. He had a perpetual bruise on his forehead for at least a year (from that and, well, falling into the coffee table). I found that if I went to him, took his head in my hands and pretended to bang him into whatever it was, while saying "bang! bang!" dramatically, he would start to giggle and get sidetracked from the actual banging.

    Oh, and I likely ate a lot of chocolate, too.

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    Um, also... chocolate (unless it's 100% pure cocoa) would contain glucose, which is brain fuel.

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    Oh my HK:

    "Most of the time, she's angelic enough that nobody who hasn't seen that side of her would ever for a single second believe it."

    Ah-ha.... With bells on.

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    Introducing good quality adult chocolate is redirection in a way. We did this and ended up with a kid who likes chocolate but doesn't like any other sweeties (candy to you). Win!


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    We distracted and engaged. We also explained the danger. DD really understood. We tried to create a "yes" environment, so like if you can get a plug cover that goes over a plugged in cord? That kind of thing. So the kids could explore pretty freely. But the bodily frustration thing is hard! Sometimes we did/do distract from that, just for some peace, and normally they get whatever they're shooting for pretty soon. Or come to understand they can work towards it. Good luck!

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    I gave up distracting with ds2 because as soon as you stopped actively distracting him he went right back to where you left off. All it did was prolong the fuss. If I put him in time out he destroys his room or breaks things. I end up having to just hold on to him until it passes mostly. He is getting slightly better but he still refuses to admit he is wrong, denies doing stuff you actually saw him do (and he saw you see), screams and throws furniture when he doesn't get his own way. Everyone thinks he is completely charming.

    He is 4 in May and I suspect he will test higher than ds1 who is at the top end of hg. Honestly some days I don't think I will survive their childhood.

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    I am at my mum's waiting for our new house to be built, so I don't have as much control around the safety of the house. My mum wants me to be more firm, but I am a "gentle parent", so I use distraction.

    But non-dangerous playing is so exhausting. I feel bad that he is frustrated. I am also amazed that this little, tiny human being is soooooo determined! I, too, thinks DS2 will have a higher IQ, if this attitude is any to go by. I don't want to damage his spirit, or any learning gifts. It is purely selfish on my end to end the tantrums. My eldest is so controlled, organised, self-disciplined, and incredibly calm- it takes a lot to upset hi, even as a baby; my baby is exactly the same, except for the aggression, and in all honesty I am scared wink

    Do you think it is possible that once he is capable of physically doing what he wants the tantrums will stop? Or will he be wanting to do what a kid 10 years older is doing?

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    Originally Posted by squishys
    I don't want to damage his spirit, or any learning gifts. It is purely selfish on my end to end the tantrums.

    Not at all selfish. Learning self-control is a very important lesson, and one that is foundational for getting along with others.

    In our house, the rule is that if you tantrum for something, you will not have it; it will be put away. Even if it's "good for you" (online math). If you ask sweetly, as long as it's safe, moral, and not a grave inconvenience to anyone, it's likely to be "yes."

    I don't think teaching a child to behave damages his spirit. On the contrary, not teaching him to behave sets him up for a lifetime of difficulties. JMO.

    DeeDee

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    Originally Posted by DeeDee
    [quote=squishys]Not at all selfish. Learning self-control is a very important lesson, and one that is foundational for getting along with others.

    In our house, the rule is that if you tantrum for something, you will not have it; it will be put away. Even if it's "good for you" (online math). If you ask sweetly, as long as it's safe, moral, and not a grave inconvenience to anyone, it's likely to be "yes."

    I don't think teaching a child to behave damages his spirit. On the contrary, not teaching him to behave sets him up for a lifetime of difficulties. JMO.

    DeeDee

    I agree with all of this.

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    Another agree 100%. Teaching a child pro-social behaviors benefits the child more than it benefits the adults. This child is going to be under the supervision of others, and is going to be seeking play dates, soon. Learning pro-social behaviors early ensures that these early social experiences go well (assuming the supervisors/play dates have also developed them).

    Perhaps the OP is confusing discipline with authoritarian parenting.

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    I'm not worried about the "social" aspect of the tantrums; I just don't like seeing him upset. My original question was about hindering his spirit, and being unsure about possible damage being done to distract, rather than letting him naturally continue something he feels is important.

    I am not confused about my parenting technique that I have been practising for nearly sevens years smile No discipline, no authoritarian parenting. I believe in behaving the way you want your child to behave. Giving respect is rewarded with respect. Redirecting or distraction instead of punishment. No rewards, no timeouts. Letting a child be proud of themselves, rather than relying on an adult's validation.

    Luckily this isn't a debate on parenting smile Thanks for the responses, everyone.

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    good luck. Just remember that all kids are different and sometimes a slightly different angle of approach is needed. I for instance don't just get social stuff I need more explicit instructions. Maybe you need a commentary to go along with your example showing. I think most of them outgrow the aggression but not always automatically and not at the same rate - some need more help.

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    My son was (and is still) incredibly stubborn and persistent. Distraction rarely worked for us because it just wasn't possible, he's so single-minded. For me, finding ways to safely engage in the desired activity, plus a lot of explaining about why/what is dangerous worked. At about a year, he became obsessed with knives. I'm pretty sure this isn't in any parenting book, but I figured that I'd be better off teaching him the right way to handle a knife because one way or another, he was going to get his hands on one the minute I let my guard down. So I taught him about the handle and the blade, and took the time to carefully supervise him with knives as much as possible until the interest passed. I did the same with other things he was interested in like hammer/nails, outlets, candles, and the microwave. This has helped him accept and respect the few absolute no's (like our gas stove) much better.

    He also had a lot of tantrums/getting stuck in a loop at that age because he is such a perfectionist and couldn't do what he wanted. Modeling with stuffed animals helped (he got to be the one to tell his naughty "friends" no or console them for not being able to do something yet or we could teach them how to do something when he wouldn't let me help him).

    Now that he's three, I can ask him what he's tried, if it's working, and what else could we try? If he's getting really stuck, I ask, "Is this important to you?" sometimes he says no and it diffuses the situation. If he says yes, then I tell him, "okay, we'll keep trying until we get it as long as you're calm." He does have to ask nicely or there are no results, and if he's spinning out of control then we put the item away.

    One and two years old were very hard for us with the desire/skill mismatch, but three has been better.

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    Thank you, Somerdai, for an answer that suits my parenting. I feel I should let him continue, because it is his strong personality that is there for a purpose. I feel helpless watching him, but I guess it is building his mind.

    I'm glad to hear it gets easier; I assumed it would once his body and mind became more levelled. As I mentioned before, my first son had the same determination, but he was so patient; being able to sit for an hour, quietly. It's amazing and special to see their unique personalities form so young.

    Thanks, again smile

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    Being a gentle parent is not synonymous with not parenting.

    There is a huge difference between crushing a child's spirit and not being willing to be the bad guy in order to teach a child boundaries, especially when those lessons are about safety. That your child is being allowed to handle electric cords is an accident waiting to happen. Not only should the cords be out of reach as much as possible, but it is up to you, the parent, to be consistent in establishing the boundary that electrical cords are not ok to touch by picking your child up, moving them somewhere else and speaking a firm no - over and over, no matter how many times it takes. There can't be an oh-well limit when it comes to matters that involve safety, no matter how persistent, stubborn or out of control your child is at the moment.

    And to then allow a one year old who is not physically capable of pushing you away to do so with your permission (you are choosing to move since you are much bigger and can't actually be pushed) is teaching the child that you do not have authority. Your child needs to know you will keep them safe and that there are boundaries - and that you are in control. To not give your child that security isn't gentle; it just lets you temporarily off the hook from being the bad guy. At some point your child is going to encounter an adult or another child who isn't concerned with being gentle, and the emotional consequences to your child will be so much more devastating than the temporary frustration of hearing you say no and knowing you mean it.

    I know this sounds harsh, but it is likely the most important lesson I had to learn in parenting a strong-willed gifted child. My oldest walked at 9 months, and she pushed against every boundary in sight. I learned to pick my battles and then not ever waver from the ones that mattered. I remember some days where I got nothing done, because I spent the entire time redirecting her from trying to do something dangerous. If I had given up on the 754th time, all I would have done is teach her that that was my limit. But by never wavering on the things that mattered, she learned to accept it the first time she heard no, and she was much happier for it. It also made parenting her easier, because she knew I had the authority.

    She's 22 now, and she is still strong willed and driven. But she accepts boundaries and has learned to discipline herself. She's told me that the consistency over the years helped ground her. And now that string will and drive are helping her meet her goals. It has turned into a wonderful asset for her.

    You can be gentle and still set boundaries, but you are going to have to be willing to be the bad guy.

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    Well said Lisa. Very true.

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    Agreed.

    Also teaching that-- as a basic boundary condition-- one CANNOT roll over other people using aggression or manipulation...

    that's a really necessary explicit lesson (well, okay-- a series of them) for some children. It's also a really exhausting challenge for parents!! The very worst mismatch is when a fairly aggressive child is being parented by a submissive and gentle parent-- because the innate tendencies of both parties lead to the CHILD being an authoritarian/dictatorial presence there.

    I realize that this is a fundamental difference in parenting philosophies... and that there are people who truly believe that ALL children will naturally blossom out without any guidance, and that altering their innate tendencies in any way is "wrong" because it prevents them from doing what they are 'destined' for... and my apologies to anyone with that outlook, but I have to say that I don't think it is okay (societally) to let kids with certain traits develop those traits without alteration to that natural trajectory. Some kids are not destined to develop into very nice people without some parental shaping of natural personality traits. Leaving kids completely 'au natural' does concede that some of them will turn into manipulative, exploitative individuals. It's a particular risk with kids who are exceptionally gifted in some way and lack empathy. Golding didn't invent Lord of the Flies out of thin air, YK? It resonates because it describes something fundamental about human nature. I don't think that most parents would like that for their kids.

    Leave certain tendencies unaddressed, and those kids can become nightmarish for everyone around them when they are a bit older, because they don't all "naturally" develop empathy, impulse-control, and tolerance. Some do, of course... but not all. There really isn't anything personally advantageous in The Golden Rule. KWIM?

    Aggressive kids who are age-appropriately self-centered and asynchronously advantaged in their ability to gain what they want often need VERY strong parents. Not harsh parents, but parents who are willing to say "NO. You must not do that. You need to consider others, and recognize that their needs are just as important as your wishes are." Until they can develop empathy, (and even that may be a matter of fairly deliberate parenting in some cases) they need us to help them... as firmly as required.

    It's really hard to redirect some kids into more prosocial patterns, but it does pay dividends down the road. smile

    Neglect to do that, and you can wind up in a far, far different place. I know several friends with teen/adult children who deeply regret their assumption that modeling reflective, compassionate, and gentle behaviors would be enough to teach those things to kids of ANY disposition. Some kids, not so much-- they take that as confirmation that they ARE, in point of fact, very much entitled to anything they want, at any time that they want it, and that their opinions, desires, and needs will automatically take precedence over those of others-- no exceptions. These are not particularly happy children, either-- because those antisocial behaviors leave them isolated as peers figure out that they are a bit, well, sociopathic.

    Gentle parenting can work with those children. But passive/permissive parenting cannot; that merely teaches them that the world exists to do their bidding. I think that most developmentally healthy kids believe just that at some point (around 2-3yo) if they have been lovingly nurtured, but it's not good if they continue to believe it. LOL.

    PS. I was a child very much like this. My parents were VERY firm about not permitting selfish/exploitative behavior from me, and insisted on coaching prosocial thinking. My BIL, a very similar child, was never coached that way (on the contrary, he was coached to be self-centered and aggressive, or at least that there wasn't anything wrong with that because he naturally deserved whatever he liked), and he is sort of sociopathic. I do credit the permissive parenting he experienced with his complete lack of compassionate perspective-taking. Neither of us was parented in a particularly "gentle" manner, though-- so I know that one can't conflate gentle with permissive. My DH is nothing like his interpersonally exploitative younger sibling, so it wasn't that his parents were "bad" parents-- just all wrong for a kid with my BIL's needs.

    Non-permissive but gentle is rather like "What would Ghandi do here?" smile



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    HowlerKarma- if there was a "like" button, I would click it for your answer.

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