Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment WISC-IV results and talking to school

We recently tested our DS (6 years, 0 months) on the WISC-IV - he hit it off with the tester and while he was "somewhat fidgety and restless," especially during the Processing Speed section, and "focus was not as good on rote tasks," the test was felt to be an accurate appraisal.

He is in a small, gentle kindergarten class with a teacher who believes kindergarten is about behavior and learning to follow school routines. In her system, he is regularly "on red" for dawdling, squirming, sitting in the wrong line at circle time, running two steps in the classroom. The teacher frequently hands out a worksheet (color the pictures that start with A and write the words underneath), steps away, and comes back to find that he has not started it. This seems very predictable to me but when we met two weeks ago, it was her chief issue with his behavior and she has questioned whether he will be ready for the expectations of first grade.

DS is a high-energy, outgoing child who when bored tends to socialize or announce facts about his areas of interest (currently predators and scavengers). This drives the teacher crazy. We have been pressing for differentiation since the fall, but she feels that it would not be fair since he's not completing the regular worksheets. Hence, the testing. While he does not seem unhappy, school is primarily a social outlet and the work he completes there is well below what challenges him at home.

I would appreciate any thoughts on his scores and how to work with the school to keep him engaged for the last three months of the year. Of course we will also be talking to the principal about getting him a better fit for next year. Thanks for your thoughts!

WISC-IV

Verbal Comprehension 138 / 99.9th percentile
Similarities 16
Vocabulary 19
Comprehension 14

Perceptual Reasoning 141 / 99.7th percentile
Block Design 15
Picture Concepts 19
Matrix Reasoning 16

Working Memory 120 / 91st percentile
Digit Span 12
Letter-Number Sequencing 15

Processing Speed 103 / 58th percentile
Coding 8
Symbol Search 13

FSIQ 135 / 99th percentile

GAI was not included - if I am calculating correctly I get a 148.

FWIW your ds' WISC scores are very similar to my ds12's scores, and the gap between processing speed, specifically coding, and other scores is significant. In some kids it means nothing, but your ds' behavior when given a task to complete at school that involves fine motor skills is *exactly* what my ds used to do in K-2 before we knew he had fine motor challenges (dysgraphia and developmental coordination disorder) as well as an expressive language disorder that makes it difficult for him to literally get his thoughts out of his head and onto paper.

Did the school perform the WISC or did you have it done privately? Did the person who administered the test feel your ds performed to the best of his ability on coding or was he distracted? I'm guessing that his high scores on other parts of the test mean that he was on task and trying during his testing, and the subtest score in coding is accurate for his abilities.

This is all based on hindsight on my part, and also filtered through the lens of a parent with two 2e kids, but fwiw, I'd want more info about why the coding score is low, particularly since the area in school that seems to be an issue is performing on fine motor tasks. The types of follow-up information that were helpful for our ds were primarily tests given through a neuropsychologist - the Beery VMI (visual motor integration) and NEPSY executive functioning tests. He also had OT and Speech evaluations, but that was after we'd determined he had a fine motor disability and then later, after remediating and accommodating for handwriting realized he still had difficulty with putting his thoughts into writing.

We heard a lot of "he's just not trying", "he's not paying attention", and we also thought our ds was a perfectionist and that combined with being intellectually gifted and not appropriately challenged was causing the issues with writing. All of that could play into it for sure... but I wish we'd followed through on testing when ds was in K rather than not following up on it until 2nd grade. Although he wasn't evaluated due to behavior issues etc, he did have his first IQ test before entering K when he was evaluated for a gifted program, and he had that discrepancy in processing speed noted on the test... and the tester wrote it off as perfectionism.

Sorry I rambled a bit! One thing you could ask his teacher to try now is to have him give his idea orally and have her scribe when he has the writing assignment - you could try this at home too. If you haven't already done it, talk to your ds and ask him what's going on when he doesn't write things down in class.

In the meantime, advocate for more challenging work at school. If the school says he's not capable because he's not showing his knowledge now, ask for alternative ways for him to demonstrate his abilities.

Gotta run, I hope some of that helps!

polarbear

I, too, am getting a 148 for GAI. A couple of things stand out here to me:

1) the VCI percentile is incorrect. 138 cannot be the 99.9th percentile while 141 is the 99.7th in the PRI as they are both working off of the same mean (100) and standard deviation (15). I believe that 138 is the 99th and 141 is, technically, the 99.6th b/c it straddles the point btwn the 99.6th and 99.7th. You, technically need one more point (a 142) to be at the 99.7th. Okay, off my nitpicking of the tester's scoring...

2) His processing speed doesn't actually look slow in that his block design score was high and in line with his other abilities and block design is also a timed test. I'd wonder about whether distractibility, like you mention, or anxiety, or lots of mistakes, or fatigue played more into the speed index than true low speed.

I wouldn't be surprised that he is squirmy. He is a young boy and he is probably bored with the academic material. Do you have any options for subject acceleration or enrichment that might make the work more engaging for him?

Processing speed can in fact be that slow even though a child has a high score in block design - my ds12 scored 8 on coding, and 11s on symbol search and cancellation in his most recent WISC-IV (10 years old), but hit the ceiling on block design (19, did not answer any questions incorrectly). My understanding is that the block design subtest has the child recreate abstract visual designs using blocks; coding, symbol search and cancellation all require a child to use a pencil to make a mark while being timed - this is where kids who have fine motor dysgraphia are particularly challenged - their brain may process visual information very quickly, but their brain's ability to control their fine motor skills is challenged. It's not the same thing as having a slow processing speed due to cognitive issues - it's a symptom of the brain not being able to communicate the process that's required to use handwriting.

polarbear

Processing speed can in fact be that slow even though a child has a high score in block design - my ds12 scored 8 on coding, and 11s on symbol search and cancellation in his most recent WISC-IV (10 years old), but hit the ceiling on block design (19, did not answer any questions incorrectly). My understanding is that the block design subtest has the child recreate abstract visual designs using blocks; coding, symbol search and cancellation all require a child to use a pencil to make a mark while being timed - this is where kids who have fine motor dysgraphia are particularly challenged - their brain may process visual information very quickly, but their brain's ability to control their fine motor skills is challenged. It's not the same thing as having a slow processing speed due to cognitive issues - it's a symptom of the brain not being able to communicate the process that's required to use handwriting.

polarbear

Thanks for the feedback! I would not have known to follow up on the coding score - I will talk to the tester. From our quick conversation after the session (oblique since DS was in the room), that was the section where he lost interest.

His fine motor skills and handwriting seem age-appropriate. He completes the basic worksheets (circle the pictures that start with A and write ANT or APPLE) in 2-3 minutes if I stand over him. But, he does try to get out of any writing so I would like to investigate any possible issue.

We tested privately through a local university with a gifted program. We will be sharing the report with the school since the tester strongly recommended higher-level work as well as "qualitatively different work that is challenging."

We do enrich (math and science in particular) at home and have been asking for differentiation, and offering materials, for months. The teacher has been resisting, saying it's not fair to the other kids. (Even beyond academics - he has a wedge cushion which helps him sit still at the table. But she does most of her instruction on the floor and doesn't want him to use it there, because the other kids will want one. And so he squirms, and she is frustrated.)

Since there are no programs or policies I can find in writing, our next step is to go back to the instructional supervisor and possibly the principal with this assessment, and ask what they can offer.

My DS8 who took the WISC at 7.5 had a 10 (coding) and 13 in PSI. He has always had lots of movement which we always attributed to 1) being an energetic boy; and 2) phsycomotor overexcitability. I still think that is a good part of it but he now has an ADHD diagnosis (after further testing - some of the same tests mentioned by polar bear). He also struggles with written output but is still at or above grade level in writing.

I would also just say that I think the teacher is way out of line. Please do not let her focus on your sons weaknesses to the determinent of his strengths. He is very bright and she bears some responsibility for fostering his intellectual curiosity. The reason he does not want to do those sheets is because they are boring - being bored once in a while is expected but day in and day out of that type of work will eventually make him hate school. I would continue to advocate for acceleration or differentiation with her and whoever else can help you. Give some thought to what you want from them and go in and ask for it. Also, if you have achievement testing or could put together a portfolio, apply to DYS.

You also might want to consider reading the Misdiagnosis / Dual Diagnosis of Gifted Children and Smart But Scattered. Good luck.

Our ds appeared to have really well developed fine motor skills when he was young - or so we thought - because he could build incredibly tiny detailed clay models, and his handwriting didn't look out-of-sync with the other kids in K/1. It wasn't until later when the other kids' handwriting was continuing to develop as expected and ds didn't seem to be making the same strides that you could see the impact of dysgraphia on his handwriting. One test that you can do at home that might be interesting is to time his handwriting - have him write the alphabet, upper and lower case, and see how long it takes him (measure in letters per minute). You can google letters per minute vs grade level and get an idea of what is considered typical (although just a warning - there are a lot of different ideas re what is "typical" for handwriting speed). Sometimes kids with dysgraphia will have legible handwriting but it will be incredibly slow relative to peers.


It sounds like you've done all you can with this particular teacher - I would consider requesting a 504 hearing as your next step if you continue to feel that your requests are not being heard and respected. The wedge cushion is a very common accommodation, and there's no reason the teacher can't allow your child to have that cushion on the floor as well as at his desk. If I were in your place, I'd be tempted to say "OK, I can understand that the other kids might also want a cushion also. Can the school supply more cushions for the classroom?" (I'm guessing the teacher would answer "no"... but fwiw, this is how my dd10's teacher handles the wedge cushion issue - there are 1-2 kids in the classroom who have it written into 504 plans, but there are about 6-7 cushions and whoever wants to use them can, but the kids who need them have first dibs. If the teacher did say no, the school doesn't have extra cushions, you could also suggest that the teacher offer that anyone who wants to use a cushion can bring their own cushion in from home.

Re being fidgety - there can be *so* many reasons for fidgetiness - from ADHD to just plain bored to gifted behaviors to having itchy skin. My dd10 used to fidget like crazy and never sat still - it turns out she had severe double vision, but she was used to seeing double and it never occurred to her to tell us that was how here eyes worked. Sitting on the cushion also helped her because she had weak muscle tone in her trunk... we used to send her outside to swing for 15+ minutes each afternoon to build up her trunk strength

Anyway, I'm rambling. You have a good plan - stick with it. It sounds like this year is going to be over without the teacher ever cooperating, but this is the time to put the groundwork in place for a successful year next year.

And I'll put one last plug in for the neuropsych consult - it sounds like it would be helpful not only in better understanding what's behind the behavior you've seen, but also in advocating for services at school. You've got the part of the eval that will be a great tool for advocating for gifted services, but it sounds like you might also need to firm up other accommodations such as the wedge cushion.

Good luck!

polarbear

Best wishes,

Kath

FWIW, personality can play a role in how a child would do with this type of test as well. My older dd, who was tested on the WISC-IV at 7, had much lower scores on the entire PSI index and the block design piece of the PRI but is not 2e. My other dd is and her stand out lows were the entire PSI and WMI.

My older one would have done poorly on a test like polarbear mentioned above not b/c she is dysgraphic but b/c she was highly perfectionistic, meticulous, and had anxiety issues related to things where she was pressed on time when she was younger especially. She had a 19, 17, 8 split on the PRI with block design as the 8 b/c she froze when they told her to do it as quickly as she could over and over and wouldn't even complete the test. She never finished math minute timed math tests b/c she'd stop to erase and rewrite her answers b/c they weren't neat enough.

I do think that this one child of mine is a slower processor in relation to her other abilities, but I don't think that she is truly 2e. It wouldn't hurt to investigate further, but I wouldn't get totally stressed about a 2e type of thing just yet. It maybe that there is something else going on, it may just be personality, disengagement or something else that requires a change of teaching but doesn't necessarily indicate a LD or other disability.

You've already had more thorough advice than I can give... But I thought I would add another annecdote.

My DD did the WPPSI at 4y9m. Her VCI was 142, PRI either 135 or 138 (mum's memory is shot). Coding was 10.

Now at the time I put this 10 in coding down to the following:

a) the tester did not tell her it was a race to see how much she could do and that she needed to do as much as she could do before the time went
b) it was boring as and she was over it all by then.

She did each item twice (correctly), clearly felt she had proved her mastery and then sat and watched the timer for the second half of the time available.

We now know that she has a handwriting disability. She has congenital low tone and ligament laxity, with an extremely mobile thumb, she literally can't hold a pencil adequately without a brace to immobilise her thumb. So maybe she stopped purely because it hurt, and who wants to do a boring & repetitive task that hurts, or she just didn't like writing. Or maybe it was a mix of all three.

My point is that knowing my child well reasons a & b made perfect sense and completely explained her low score to my mind. But in retrospect it may also have been a disability at play...