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    #123430 - 02/19/12 08:52 AM Coming Apart by Charles Murray
    islandofapples Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/20/11
    Posts: 332
    Anyone reading this book?
    I'm kind of intrigued, but he wrote The Bell Curve and some people really hate him for that book and think he is a total quack. I don't really want to waste my time on it if it is a pointless read...

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    #123433 - 02/19/12 08:57 AM Re: Coming Apart by Charles Murray [Re: islandofapples]
    Austin Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/25/08
    Posts: 1840
    Loc: North Texas
    I'd read both and make up your own mind.

    Most people who criticized the first book did not read it.

    A friend who does public planning read "Coming Apart" and it mirrors what she sees in working with the schools and developers. Its deeply troubling.

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    #123436 - 02/19/12 09:08 AM Re: Coming Apart by Charles Murray [Re: islandofapples]
    JonLaw Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/29/11
    Posts: 2007
    Loc: The Sub-Tropics
    Unraveling and crisis eras are always fun.

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    #123438 - 02/19/12 09:24 AM Re: Coming Apart by Charles Murray [Re: islandofapples]
    islandofapples Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/20/11
    Posts: 332
    Ok. How about the books - Selfish Reasons to Have More Kids, The Idle Parent, or The Nurture Assumption?
    I always read all the negative reviews first and these have plenty.

    I just read Free-Range Kids and enjoyed it. I'm looking for another one to enjoy on my Kindle for my Sunday afternoon reading. wink

    I like how controversial The Nurture Assumption is sounding. I heard about that book and Selfish Reasons from a thread here.

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    #123441 - 02/19/12 09:30 AM Re: Coming Apart by Charles Murray [Re: islandofapples]
    Bostonian Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/14/10
    Posts: 2638
    Loc: MA
    Originally Posted By: islandofapples
    Anyone reading this book?
    I'm kind of intrigued, but he wrote The Bell Curve and some people really hate him for that book and think he is a total quack. I don't really want to waste my time on it if it is a pointless read...


    I have read Murray's "The Bell Curve" and "Real Education" and recommend them, and plan to read "Coming Apart".

    A summary of Murray's work from someone who does not share his political views is

    http://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/12/what-to-do-about-coming-apart/
    What to Do About ‘Coming Apart’
    By THOMAS B. EDSALL
    New York Times
    February 12, 2012 .

    Bell Curve issues have been debated regularly on this forum, for example in the thread "Gifted or Not" http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/topics/96112/1.html . I doubt that previous participants in these debates have changed their minds or have much new to say. I don't.
    _________________________
    "To see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle." - George Orwell

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    #123442 - 02/19/12 09:42 AM Re: Coming Apart by Charles Murray [Re: islandofapples]
    islandofapples Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/20/11
    Posts: 332
    Bostonian -
    I read Real Education, too, and loved it! I forgot he wrote that. That book was the first one I read where the author was brave enough to say, "Maybe some kids just aren't smart enough and we should admit that."
    I think I will be reading Coming Apart.

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    #123445 - 02/19/12 09:50 AM Re: Coming Apart by Charles Murray [Re: islandofapples]
    islandofapples Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/20/11
    Posts: 332
    Reading it on the Kindle Cloud reader and liking it already. Ah, how simple the 60's were. He is a pretty good story teller.

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    #123446 - 02/19/12 09:56 AM Re: Coming Apart by Charles Murray [Re: islandofapples]
    JonLaw Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/29/11
    Posts: 2007
    Loc: The Sub-Tropics
    Originally Posted By: islandofapples
    Bostonian -
    I read Real Education, too, and loved it! I forgot he wrote that. That book was the first one I read where the author was brave enough to say, "Maybe some kids just aren't smart enough and we should admit that."
    I think I will be reading Coming Apart.


    It really depends on training. I've represented a number of mentally retarded people who have been able to hold down jobs just fine for many years. The last person I had tested had an IQ of 55.

    The way I tend to think about it is that the lower IQ you have, the more external structure you need. So, the question becomes "smart enough" to perform or do what kind of task.

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    #123449 - 02/19/12 10:08 AM Re: Coming Apart by Charles Murray [Re: JonLaw]
    islandofapples Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/20/11
    Posts: 332
    Originally Posted By: JonLaw
    Originally Posted By: islandofapples
    Bostonian -
    I read Real Education, too, and loved it! I forgot he wrote that. That book was the first one I read where the author was brave enough to say, "Maybe some kids just aren't smart enough and we should admit that."
    I think I will be reading Coming Apart.


    It really depends on training. I've represented a number of mentally retarded people who have been able to hold down jobs just fine for many years. The last person I had tested had an IQ of 55.

    The way I tend to think about it is that the lower IQ you have, the more external structure you need. So, the question becomes "smart enough" to perform or do what kind of task.


    He just made the point that maybe we are sending too many kids to college and that we need to accept that some children should be sent along a track that will give them other skills in different trades, etc. And that maybe some kids literally can't learn everything we want them to.

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    #123456 - 02/19/12 10:49 AM Re: Coming Apart by Charles Murray [Re: islandofapples]
    JonLaw Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/29/11
    Posts: 2007
    Loc: The Sub-Tropics
    Originally Posted By: islandofapples
    He just made the point that maybe we are sending too many kids to college and that we need to accept that some children should be sent along a track that will give them other skills in different trades, etc. And that maybe some kids literally can't learn everything we want them to.


    College is the new high school with respect to jobs. That is to say jobs that used to require a high school diploma now require a college education. Our receptionist has a college education. My legal assistant has a college education.

    These days, it's mostly a place to lard students up with debt and store them for a few years as far as I can tell.

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