Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Saxon math - what to do?

Our school uses the Saxon math program. My first grade son is getting bored, as the program is way behind where he is and it moves so slowly, with so much repetition. I found a homeschool website that had a math placement test and if we were homeschooling he would be starting in Math 2.

Does anyone know if this correlates to 2nd grade math for the school Saxon program? Son was already skipped into first grade early, I'm a little leery of asking for subject acceleration to 2nd grade for math, but last night he was doing simple multiplication ("give me another one, Mom, let's see if I can do it!") and I sure don't want to lose that spark! I'm worried though about a 5 year old in a second grade class. Also whether the whole Saxon math thing is just not right for him - the pace and structure of the curriculum don't seem a good match for gifted kids. Would 2nd grade still be frustrating since it will be the same general program, but new information? I mean, he catches on so quickly and then wants to get going to the next topic.

Maybe we should investigate EPGY for school? But would having him do that during math be disruptive for him socially at all, since he would lose out on learning how to do group work? But, he has already commented that sometimes it is more fun to work alone because the other kids are too slow! Oh heavens, I had hoped we'd be set for at least the first semester of first grade!!! At least his teacher agrees that the math is not a good match, so we have opportunity to discuss. I just want to go to the teachers with some ideas. Any input is great. BTDT advice?

Debbie,

I've done most of the Saxon homeschool K program with my preschool DD and will be starting the 1st grade program in a couple months. The program has been too easy in many places, but despite that I've really liked it for the ideas it gives me.

Is the teacher willing to expand the lessons? For example, the K book has a lesson about the worth of a penny and using pennies to pay for items up to 10 cents. A bit later it introduces dimes. I simply combined the lessons, added nickels, and played the grocery shopping games with my DD. The lessons give the child enough pennies (or dimes) to pay for a single item, put the money back in a purse and pay for the next item. I gave her a big handful of coins, had her figure out how to buy as many items as possible with the money she had, and then asked her to count how much money she spent when she was done.

Is the teacher willing to accelerate or combine the lessons for your son? I combine content that has too much repetition. The coin lessons I mentioned are a good example. There were a number of simple coin lessons that I combined into one short explanation about counting coins.

While the Saxon math has been a lot of fun with my preschool DD, I'm not sure if my approach is all that useful in a classroom. I have the luxury of doing as much material as my DD wants and skipping anything that she already knows.

If the school accelerates your son to Saxon 2, are they willing to let him work at his own pace? Can he skip a section if he already knows the material and is able to prove it with some sort of asssessment?

Jill

We use the diveintomath.com dvds. It starts at Saxon 54 which is 4th grade level math. I don't know if this is helpful for your situation, but it might worth checking.

Thanks for the suggestions.
So far, the teachers have not been open to differentiating the program - saying it is too hard to do that, as the program is so structured. I'm afraid that even though the math class is only 14 kids, they aren't able/willing to let him skip stuff he already knows. I think that part of the problem is that the math teacher just doesn't even know what he can do. I'm going to be talking to her on Monday, I hope. I think I'll ask about volunteering/observing during her class to see what's really going on. She has mentioned several times that there is much more to the class than what we see as homework. Maybe after seeing for myself I'll be better able to speak to the issue.

Good luck - Saxon has their own placement tests I think. We downloaded some directly from their site and placed my DD in first grade (which is appropriate as she was entering first grade) and my DS in 7th grade (which is inappropriate as he was entering 3rd grade.)

Another approach is to add some logic and problem solving skill building rather than advancing directly in math. In the end, math is about problemsolving rather than arithmetic - so it is the best possible kind of enrichment. Enrichment that matters more than the stuff the rest of the kids would be doing.

If they can't do that at school - you can definitely do that at home. Computer games like Zoombinis is a great tool for that.

Mary

Mary,
Thanks for the computer game resource. He loves the computer, so that would go over well.

We do a lot of activities at home, following his lead and then just making activities available. He often wants me to just quiz him on math facts, just because he likes to see how much he knows, I guess! But we also play logic and problem solving games, so I guess we are on the right track.

I'm still not sure what to do about the math at school, though. I talked with the teacher yesterday and she isn't very helpful at all. Has no clue what my son's needs are or how to adapt what she does to meet those needs.

I also spoke to a teacher/specialist person at the Saxon publishing company. She had no clue either! At least not about teaching gifted kids with Saxon. But at least I got some clear info on what the program involves.

I'm hoping to get into the classroom to observe. The teacher said she doesn't need a volunteer to help in the room (?) but that it was fine for me to come observe. But for some reason she needs to "run it by the principal." Once I observe what goes on in the classroom, then maybe I'll ask for a meeting to discuss it. I would hate to wait until DS is so frustrated with homework and class experience that there are behavior issues, but I'm afraid that the school might not do anything until then.

Thanks again, to all, for the support and advice.

Debbie,

Has the teacher asked the kids to count as high as they can? When my son was 5yo in 1st, his teacher asked each child to count as high as possible with their parent/s for homework.
After 100, I let my son count by 5s, then 10s. He mistakenly said that 2,000 came after 1,090 (He counted as high as 5,000 something before, but I was happy he made the mistake that night). He appartently counted higher than the other kids and it demonstrated his math readiness to his teacher.
It seems like a very simple exercise, but it helped show his strenght.

Good luck Debbie!
I think observing the classroom is a wonderful way to see what's actually going on, and will give you the information you need. He're a link to the "Art of Problem Solving" - it may be too soon, but it's a good thing to know about: http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/


Love and more Love,
Trinity

Debbie,
I checked ALEKS online, for my daughter who is in 4 grade. She loved it. And while she is not a "mathematical genius" , her teacher was indicating to me during P/T conference that she belongs to a group of kids in her class that are more advanced mathematically /grasps problems easily. I suggested Aleks online pull out sessions for those kids and she is running it through the principal to check if it is aligned with Utah curriculum (end of level testing they worry so much about due to NCLB!).
ALEKS, when purchased through the school, is only $35 a year , as compared to $19.99 /month when purchased privately. I hope the principal sees the value of it ! And there is no need to hire an extra teacher.
Aleks starts with a third grade curriculum, but if your son is advanced you can still test him online and see if he is ready. You can register for a 48 hour trial at no cost. Go to
www.aleks.com

Ania

It sounds like you're going to have an uphill struggle. Which usually means you've already lost. At least until next year or whenever you get a new teacher. The schools really don't have to do anything they don't want to. And any attempts to force the issue will usually be counter productive. In the end you're working with people, and you have to find the way to tap into each individual's motivations.

I'm not sure of the jargon in your state, but here we talk about establishing "present levels of performance". Try to find a way to get the teacher or school to evaluate your child's current level of mathematical performance. Try to get them to stick to objective tests rather than subjective opinions or homegrown tests. Don't expect them to perform nationally normed standardized testing, or expect them to accept any independently performed testing. This would be more scientifically accurate and meaningful, but schools don't tend to like the advice of independent experts. You might however be able to get them to use the assessment tests that are provided with most of the major brands of standard math cirriculum.

Once you've established where your child is at, encourage the idea that your child should not be force to work on material for which he has already demonstrated mastery. You'll have to negotiate both those terms carefully: "demonstrate" and "mastery". Make sure that there are regular opportunities to demonstrate mastery. Your best bet is you use assessment testing provided from the standard cirriculum and allow them to require a score of 90% or better.

None of this really helps if there is no provision made to instruct your child at an appropriate level or pace.

As Ania suggested, I'd try to get your child enrolled in ALEKS. It is relatively inexpensive and appears to be somewhat accepted within the education establishment. EPGY is excellent and a bit more rigorous, but a whole lot more expensive.

If all else fails, you really have very few options outside of changing schools or homeschooling.

ggoebel: Thanks for the suggestion about establishing level of performance and/or mastery. This is actually where I think I will be going. I'm waiting to here from the teacher as to when is a good time to observe. After that, I think I will ask if son can take some of the mastery tests from the end of the curriculum.

When I spoke with the consultant at Saxon she suggested that I ask to review the whole curriculum and then see if son could pass some of the assessments at the end of the curriculum. She emphasized how the assessments are not cumulative, often repetitive and there is not just one assessment that would give us an idea of mastery. But I think if we could at least give son some assessments for material that hasn't been taught yet then the math teacher would start to understand what I mean. And you are right, I can't really ask them to teach at his level if we don't really know what level that is.

I don't think he is ready for Aleks yet, but will keep it in my toolbox as I'm sure it will come in handy later! Meantime, he is doing 1st to 2nd grade math computer games and workbooks at home. And we do lots of enrichment with games and what I call "functional math." So he is learning in spite of attending school!

If a teacher isn't assessing where a child is at both before and after instruction, than there is no way to measure the appropriateness or effectiveness of that instruction. It makes no sense to assume that children know nothing about a subject before it is presented. Children after all do not live in a vacuum.

Our daughter started ALEKS at LV-3 in second grade. I didn't realize that ALEKS doesn't offer courses for Kindergarten through 2nd grade. Sorry, I didn't realize I was making an inappropriate suggestion.

Before EPGY and ALEKS we did much the same thing that you're doing. I.e. workbooks and computer games.

You might want to check out the book:
http://www.amazon.com/Young-Children-Reinvent-Arithmetic-Implications/dp/0807739049

It describes the cognitive development of arithmetic in early primary grades. I've found the book to be instrumental in figuring out where our children are at developmentally and very helpful in determining what kind of activities and games will be most rewarding. It was interesting to read that the conceptual building blocks for arithmetic are arrived at by almost all children in all countries and educational environments (or lack thereof) at essentially the same chronological age.

Reading all these threads and posts, it is easy to get jaded and/or apathetic. But it probably bares mentioning that people who are having good experiences with gifted education aren't likely to be hanging out on forums like this one.

It is easy to fall into an adversarial mode where you see yourself as providing opportunties for your child to learn despite or in spite of school... But it isn't very productive.

That isn't to say that you should ignore real problems. There is a tendency of some teachers to think that "gifted" children are all gifted across the board. Another common theme seems to be written or unwritten policies that discourage identification of children before 3rd grade.

I think it is important to remember that most teachers got into teaching because they care. Many who wanted to teach children find themselves instead teaching inflexible curriculums and how to take tests. Many burn out. And many become entrenched and inflexible in their ways.

If you look at the numbers, your average teacher with class sizes between 20-25 students would only encounter a gifted child once every 4 or 5 years. Is it any surprise that they're ill prepared to meet gifted childrens' needs? Few teachers have any significant training in special or gifted education.

If you want to be a good advocate for your children, then you're going to have to educate yourself first, and then educate the educators. However, as an advocate for your child in a very large and established education system, if you don't have the good will of your child's teacher you might as well pack up and go home.

Good advice, ggoebel. I'm hoping that I have already followed it by establishing a working relationship with his teachers.

I noticed that ALEKS offers a free 48 hour trial session. So I think that I will try that this weekend, just to see what level he is at, in case he might even be close to being able to use that as a supplement.

I'm going in to the math class on Thursday this week to observe for awhile. And I want to ask about looking at the curriculum. Hoping to look ahead and perhaps get a feel for whether this years curriculum is going to challenge him at all. I observe children in classrooms regularly as part of my job, so I know what I'm looking for as an observer. I just hope that I can be objective as the parent! And I promised son that I wouldn't even say HI to him, because he was at first worried that the other kids would laugh at him, having his mom there. I have concerns about his social/peer interaction as well as the academics. So I hope it will be an enlightening and reassuring experience all around.

Sounds like a plan Debbie. You may be a bit biased, but isn't it your place to a wee bit biased?
You've got me curious about what your paid work is, care to detail?
Trintiy

Oh sure, I can tell you what I do!
I'm an Occupational Therapist. Have been for 17 years. I currently work in an outpatient hospital setting (rural area) so I treat anyone who walks through the door and needs OT. But my experience lies primarily in neuro-rehab and pediatrics. I'm SI certified now and have a long background with school re-entry for kids with head trauma. So I have spent a lot of time in the classrooms as an observer/consultant/private clinician, helping school staff with IEPs, accomodations, etc. I've also taken some child advocacy workshops related to disability in general. My current pediatric caseload is mostly kids on the autism spectrum, ADHD, LD, developmental delays, etc. I do lots of SI based treatment these days.

I observed for 30 minutes in the class today. It was interesting. And I'm so glad I did it. Thanks to Trinity for putting the bug in me to go see for myself!

First of all, the teacher had asked that the principal sit in on the observation with me. I'm guessing that was a defensive move, but I really wasn't headed in to bash her or anything! It's the curriculum I'm more worried about. But I was glad that the principal saw what I saw.

My first response was that if I didn't know him I would pull him out for an OT evaluation! He was so physically active! He clearly stood out as different from the other 12 kids there, moving about in his place during circle, not sitting still at his desk, etc. He was rolling his head around, changing position, putting his arms over his head, and on and on.

But then when I considered the topic of the day (10 pennies equals one dime) I realized why he was like that. HE IS BORED!!!!
When they were doing the worksheet together as a class, it was clear that he was NOT working at the same speed. He had finished his sheet long before the teacher got to #3!

So, afterwards, the principal suggested that we all meet so we can compare where the teachers see him academically and socially and as a "whole child" and where we see him as parents. I tried to explain tactfully that at home he is doing math at a higher level. I told him how we see DS escalate with physical activity when he is not involved in something but that he can sit stock still in a chair for 3 hours doing his 2nd-3rd grade math missions computer game! I suggested that DS wasn't "cognitively engaged" during math! Like that euphemism?!

So, principal suggested that we meet before Christmas break to review his performance and discuss any changes that might need to be made. I'll keep you posted and ask for advice as needed!

Oh Debbie,
I'm so glad you got to see it in action. I bet you barely recognised your own child! I'm glad the principle was there also! Remind me, is this a public or independent school?

Ok - Here's your homework between now and the meeting. Try to assess your child in three distict areas of school performance: Skills, Knowledge Base, and Critical Thinking.
If you school has a website or a brochure, get access to the "scope and sequence" for the grade levels. Look at the grade level the child is in, and the next few grade levels. Put a S next to the Skills, K next to the information the child is suppposed to learn, and a C next to the integrative type products that would demonstrate critical thinking the child is supposed to achieve.

Then next to each S, K or C, try to figure out how you can demonstrate where the child is in contrast to the school's teaching goals.

Here are some examples:
1) Skills - find those Saxon end of year tests, and have him fill them out, for the next few grade levels, with camcorder rolling if possible. You want them to SEE how quickly he moves along. Figure out which Math fact he has automatisity on. Write it down.
Get handwriting samples, both 1st draft and final product type writing, printing and cursive. Get permission to show samples to the teachers and get a feel for where you child is.
Reading Comprehension - there are cheap internet reading assesments ((Help - someone get a link?)) Or try and find the lexile number of the books your child reads at home, by googling Lexile and the book's title. Make a list of 5 books your child has read lately and their lexiles.
Social Skills - see if you can get some observations of your child on playdates with older children of various ages. Again, if you can get it on tape, that's the best, but it's tricky.

Knowledge - See what topics are being covered in Social Studies and Science. Ask child to write, type or dictate what they know about the covered topics. Take your time, have fun.

Critical thinking - I'm foggiest about this one. If you have the IQ/WJ/ or Talent search tests that can help. Camcorder your child talking about a "unit studies" type project or collection they have at home. Keep a log of "profound" things they say around the house. Ask them to make a sample "public service announcement" about a topic that interest them. ((Help - any free or cheap internet assesments?))

Try your best to assign grade levels to all these various topics. Get an overall picture of what your child is ready to learn. Get on tape what your child looks like when you teach something in the correct "readiness" level.

This sounds like a tall order. I believe that it will pay off in terms of your confidence to guide the school, and minimize mistakes that will cost your child emotionally. It's great when the school steps forward and offers to do their share, but in the end, the ultimate responsibility rests squarely on our shoulders. Not fair or appealing, perhaps, but come here for support and vent when it feels like "too" much. Don't do any of it until you can think of a way to make the next part fun.

Readiness! Our new watchword!
Love and More Love (because that's what it takes)
Trinity

P.S. Don't use computer games as an example - IMHesperience, school hear "computer games" and stop thinking. ADHD bell go off. "Sure, all kids love computer games, that doesn't translate into "inclass behavior."

they do have a point.

Thanks for all the advice and direction. I'm not sure I can do all that before this meeting, but at least on the math front I can.

And you may be right about the computer games thing. Although he has to have math fact knowledge for this one, I see your point. I guess I'll bring in the math workbook that he picks up on his own and focuses independently doing up to 12 pages at a time in!

Yesss - That's much more like what the teachers want to see. LOL - that was a lot of advice - but it's more of a "big picture" where everylittle bit helps, and stands on it's own. I'd go after the reading/lexiles piece next. It's concrete and easy to collect.

I haven't been posting much - but Trinity's point on computer games is good. DS was playing 3rd grade cluefinders on the most challenging level when he was 5 - but the teachers totally tuned it out since it was just a game.

Then we found a private tutor and told her - her jaw dropped and she was impressed.

Those who get it - will appreciate the game - those who don't will just brush it off.

Glad you went and observed. So important to do that. Sometimes wish we had done that sooner....

Mary