Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Would You Switch a Happy Child?

Hi again! I posted here not long ago concerning testing my dds and possibly grade skipping the younger into the older child's class.

Well, now I am back with a new question - I hope you all don't mind my return visit.

I have read several threads concerning homeschooling so I thought this might be a great place to ask this question.

First a little background. DD6 is in 1st grade at our public school. She has tested 6th grade for reading and spelling and 3rd grade for math. She attends a gifted pull-out 4x a week for 30 min a day. DD5 is in K at the same school. She tested 6th grade for reading and spelling and 2nd grade for math. She attends the GT pull-out program 1x a week b/c that is all they usually do for K kids.

We have spoken to the school on numerous occasions concerning subject acceleration, possible grade skips, etc. but we are also considering homeschooling.

So, now (finally!) to my question. Currently both girls are pretty happy in school and not having major problems. I, however, do foresee the possibility of problems in the future. Would you change your gifted child's schooling situation even if they were pretty happy with their current one? Or would you wait until serious issues developed before making a switch?

TIA for what I know will be great advice!

ETA - the change we are considering is taking them out of public school and homeschooling them (as I re-read my post, it didn't seem that I was clear on that :-)

Hi Jamie,

There are many questions that arise from your situation--first, why? Is there a reason you're planning to homeschool? Is it because you could do a much better job? Have you consulted DD's? What do they think?

I guess I wouldn't change a good situation unless it is clearly in the best interest of the kid. If you're changing because you see a problem down the line, let DD finish the year and re-evaluate every 4-6 months (or more often).

Hi!

We will definitely let them finish this school year. We do, however, worry that the school can not continue to accommodate them (especially their reading skills). We worry about the endless hours they will spend doing mindless busywork when I could be engaging them in something useful and challenging at home.

The early grades have much to offer aside from acadmeics but I can see their enthusiasm for school diminishing each year. I have watched my dd6's excitement dwindle from K to 1st. While I know that all kids lose that initial excitement about school at some point, I do feel that there is very little taking place throughout the day that really peaks their interest or allows them to really think.

I just wonder if a drastic change to homeschooling is unwarranted if they seem happy. I mean, should my fear of what
"may" come be enough to make such a change or would we be better off taking it year by year and waiting for that true unhappiness that I fear to set in before making the change?

I guess I am just deliberating over whether to be proactive on this and just assume public school will not be a good fit for them or wait and be reactive and make the switch if and when school really starts to be a problem.

So far, we have been offered a grade skip for my DD5 but are choosing not to for several reasons. We are currently working for some single subject acceleration for both girls but are not getting very far with the admin. It seems they really frown on it and think all teachers can adequately differentiate.

I think , though, that it is rare to find a teacher who can successfully differentiate for a child 5 plus years ahead of the rest of the class.

I feel like I am all over the place with this but to try and sum it up. Both girls are happy bouncy social little kids who love to just hang out with kids at school. So, right now they enjoy school but down the road..... who knows?

My DS is a "happy bouncy social" 12 year old. He has been in public school all along without full grade accelerations. He has been very happy there and has lots of friends.

The schools (elementary and now middle) are nothing special on paper. But each teacher has done whatever she can to keep DS engaged. Accomadating reading is pretty easy as long as they allow kids to read above level books. Some people have run into capping kids' reading, but that has not been a problem for us. In fact, the teachers often are bringing books in from their home libraries because they think DS would like them.

DS has run for student counsel every year (sometimes successfully, sometimes not). He plays in the orchestra. He is active in the school's Kiwanis program. He was on student newspaper. He dresses up for every day of spirit week. He ran cross country and now he is on the tennis team. He's been known to pinch hit for the cafeteria ladies when they are short staffed. That boy is everywhere and into everything. Frankly, I really think that I would be holding him back socially if we tried to homeschool him! There is no way I could support that kind of social activity.

I cannot promise you the same kind of experience. But I felt the same panic you are back when I first saw how far DS was several years ago. But we stayed the course, thinking it was only a matter of time before things collapsed. But they did not collapse and he's in middle school now and thriving.

I think the two keys are that home life is very intellectually stimulating (lots of family discussions, trips, reading together), and that he has never been one to hide his abilities. As a result the teachers push him and respond well when he asks for harder work.

I hope our sample size of one is helpful to you!

As I was thinking about my response above, i got to wondering how many people actually have an experience like ours. I certainly don't know, but I do think that boards like this are likely to be a bit biased towards people who have had problems with the school systems because they are the ones who most need support.

Certainly that isn't why everyone is here, but maybe you are more likely to be here if things aren't going well. So maybe there are a lot of people whose kids are doing fine in public school--we just don't hear about them because they aren't on this board adn they aren't going to see the HG specialists at the same rates as the kids who are not a good fit for school. At least I wonder if that is the case.

I'm not sure Acs. However, I would love your situation for DS2. I'd like my (for the most part) "happy bouncy social" 2 year old to be a "happy bouncy social" 12 year old in public school w/o full grade accelerations. Fortunately, I have several more years to worry about other things. DS2 is still taking off his diaper and putting it into sleeping DH's hand.

I think your situation is amazing ACS! One thing about my DS is he does not typically show his true ability in a group of non-GT kids nor is he willing to ask for harder work. He does whatever he can to blend. He gets the small amount of "extras" they have in the classroom for the top 5 kids. At the moment, he is happy socially, but that has come and gone several times this year and he verbalizes that he is not learning anything at school. My son is absolutely delighted to homeschool, despite the fact that he has good buddies at school right now.

Jamie - we are in a very similar situation with our first grader. He is reading around jr. high level, and is capable of math well ahead of grade level (but hasn't been fully assessed here). Our school is very much against skipping and I have the ability to homeschool now, so that is what will likely happen at our house next fall. Can you feel your daughters out to see if that would be something appealing for them? It would be hard to pull a child from school that REALLY wanted to stay. But I'd re-evaluate the situation often if they are going to stay and see if you could talk to the teachers ahead of time. It also might be more appealing to your girls AFTER a summer at home?

It is nice that they have such a consistent pull out as a break at first grade! We have nothing like that at our school. I do agree on your thoughts on differentiation. They seem to do fairly well at our school with kids reading within 1-2 years of grade level. They do very little for math and don't assess beyond grade level.

acs, you are lucky. that's what i hope for for my kiddos--good situations like your son's.

I feel we do a little hybrid--public school, supplemented as needed by on-line and summer courses. I tried to buy Singapore Math online yesterday for DS6 because I don't like his math curriculum at school and thought we could do some this summer together. DS11 & DS13 will both take summer institute courses and just finished online course. DS9 takes an online course, too. My father was just visiting and said, "They should do something fun this summer--not schoolwork" and I tried to convince him that the institutes are more fun than run, jump, skip camp with age-mates. He wasn't convinced. So funny, too, because his daughters never liked to run, jump, skip either.

Jamie,

I think you're an amazing parent to be willing to take the leap to HSing proactively! It's a big, scary change--at least it was for me and for most of the people I know who are now HSing--so to be thinking ahead--regardless of what you decide to do--is just really wonderful. Please pat yourself on the back for me, would you!

I think it is very possible to "see the writing on the wall" and know that something has to change eventually, even if things are fine at school for now. I don't think you have to wait for a serious problem to decide that you can do better in a different school situation. (Not everyone agrees with me on that, BTW. So I may be in the minority with this answer...)

With girls especially, I think "stealth GT" problems are much harder to ID and can really hamper a GT child's development. "Happy" may really mean "working hard to fit in," and that can lead to problems like underachieving, perfectionism, and depression. I'm not saying these are happening in your children's cases, but I think it is a danger to watch for.

So I guess I think my answer to your question depends upon what you mean when you say "Currently both girls are pretty happy in school and not having major problems." What constitutes "pretty happy"? What not-major problems are they having, and what would constitute a major problem?

If the girls truly love their public school and would be miserable without it, then I'd advise you to leave them where they are.

If "pretty happy" really means "not very happy," they like the idea of homeschooling, and there's an active HSing group in your area, then it might be wise to investigate a bit. You have the time to do some research, and you may find that it is a much better fit for your family than public school. I'd also recommend looking into daytime child care, since if you are even a little bit like me, you will want some time without the kids to think, work, read, run errands, etc. Having that in place early is important!

I don't think you have to accept "good enough" for your children's education if you can do better than that. But I think you want to be sure that your kids are in favor of the change and that you have the local resources available to make the change a sensible one for you.

If you have specific questions about HSing itself--what it is, how do get started, etc.--I'd be happy to talk with you about it more in depth. I got lots of help before I made the decision to switch to HSing, so I know how it is and I'm happy to answer any questions you have.

K-

I do think that taking the child's desires into consideration is huge. I have checked in with DS a few times on this and he is very clear that he does not want to be homeschooled.

One of his best friends (who is at least MG) who we share a yard with went to K and then his mother decided she wanted to HS. She was concerned that school would stifle his creativity. The mother, who is a friend of mine, says how great HSing is. But my DS gets a different story from his friend who my son says really misses going to school and being with lots of different kids (not just the ones in their very homogenous HS group). They spend so much time together and are quite frank in their conversations that I doubt that the neighbor boy is telling DS a polite lie so my DS doesn't feel bad!

DS has another HG friend who was HS'ed for a year. His sister needed to be HSed for health reasons and P got pulled out of school to keep his sister company. He did a year of advanced work at home (with a marvelous family), but was quite miserable. Again, he missed the hustle and bustle of school. When he came back to school the next year, he was so happy. I'd see him working on work that was years below what he was capable of and I asked him how he liked it and he said it was well worth being a little bored to be back a school again.

I don't mean to suggest that this is the whole story by any means. I do know that neither of these kids wanted to be homeschooled and neither of them seem to have liked it. Certainly, DS does not want to be homeschooled. So I think that listening to what a child wants makes a ton of sense.

OTOH, my son LOVED the idea of HSing and resisted the possibility of going to the GT private school, even part time. He really loves his HSing, loved the idea of it before we tried it, continues to love it even on the less-than-stellar days (which every educational solution is going to have).

He has many more true peer opportunities in HS than he had in public school. The myth of the quiet child alone with a book is *not at all* what home school is all about. For our part, we are FAR more social now than we were before HSing! And the kids he's with are far more diverse and interesting than the kids he was with at our lily-white, middle-class public school. He's gotten some great opportunities that he'd have missed in that boring public school class he was in.

I say again, I think you have to ask what your definition of "pretty happy" is, and is that enough for your kids? Could your kids get more educational satisfaction (and general, overall life satisfaction) out of another arrangement?

I wasn't picking a fight with you, Dottie. Sorry, if I sounded confrontational, I didn't mean to. You and acs both know that I respect your opinions.

But especially in the wake of acs's comment, I thought I should stress that the whole "have to want to" and "need peers" stuff aren't necessarily a problem with HSing. They can be problems--just as they can be problems at a school that isn't a good fit for a child--but they aren't necessarily problems.

I just want to be sure that HSing isn't coming off as a bad choice for reasons that haven't held true for us. Those two particular reasons haven't held true for us. They do hold true for some people, and it's good to point that out. But then I think it's also good for me to point out that we had the exact opposite experience. DS6 is far happier and more social now that we're HSing. He's tried public school and he's tried HSing and he picks HSing, without any hesitation. (I'm the one who hesitated, until he wore me down, precisely because HSing is TOO social for me! I can't help but note the irony!)

<shrug> I think much of this comes down to the specific kid and the particular school situation. At this point for Jamie, public school is a known quantity and HS is an unknown quantity, but I think that's all the more reason to trust a mother's intuition. If she sees problems coming in school in the future, they probably will. I felt the same way, and I was right. The problems came sooner than I expected, actually. So doing a little research and checking in with the kids about how they feel about the possibility of HSing seems like a prudent course of action, even if Jamie ultimately decides to keep her kids in their current situation.

And after all, no decision is irreversable. It pays to keep that in mind. As I always say, for me, HSing isn't theory; it's about practice, real life, reality! I'm not wedded to a philosophy, I'm trying to make life work for DS6. If school works better for him at a given point, then that's where he'll go. For now, HSing is a lot better solution for him. Will it be better for DS3? Who knows? I may well have one at home and one in public school. Wait and see...

<double shrug> It's all a grand experiment, and we should probably all expect to change something for our HG+ kids in 6 months or so, no?

I think this is precisely the point I wanted to make in my first post. It would fall on me to meet his social needs way more if we homeschooled. I watch my neighbors who HS and their car is gone most of the time or other people are over at their house. Frankly, as an introvert it looks like heck to me. In fact, if we homeschooled I would probably have to limit his interactions a lot to preserve my own sanity.

As it is, I put him on the bus as 7:15am and we pick him up at 5:00 after tennis practice and he IS happy and full of all kinds of stories and anecdotes about the day. If I had to HS because PS wasn't working, then I would bite the bullet and homeschool. But mercifully we haven't had to face that.

I agree (and suspect everyone else does as well). Our strength is that we have so many different experiences to share. I think we want to make sure that all the stories get told loud and clear. Sometimes I fear it sounds like we are arguing, but I respect all the decisions that folks here have made, and never intend to discount another's experience. I only mean to tell my own.

Agreed, acs. That was my point, too, exactly. Well put.

Ya' know, I think we're all trying so hard to make it clear that we respect one another that we make it sound like an argument! LOL!

Oh, and I agree 100% with you, acs, that an introverted parent--that is, one who feels worn out by social interactions and needs alone time to recharge--should think long and hard about HSing without a good, dependable child care solution! That's so right!

With child care, I am a pleasant, easy person to get along with (if I do say so myself... ). Without sufficient child care, I border on insanity and become very unpleasant to be with. As the child gets old enough for independent playdates, the problem gets less pronounced. But in early elementary, it's a serious consideration that I didn't take nearly seriously enough this year!

Know thyself, and be sure your needs are met, all ye introverts considering HSing!

acs,

I think that a lot of us who are geeky introverts who do homeschooling find that being around our own kids 24/7 brings out our social side. When I drop our kids off for dance class, I usually try to stick around just to have some other adults to talk to for an hour. In fact, some of the other parents have remarked on what an outgoing, talkative guy I am � which is pretty funny considering that I really am a very introverted geek (you don�t get much more geeky than male theoretical physicists!).

I do prefer seeing others outside the house just so I don�t have to straighten up everything around the home � homeschooling does tend to make a mess of one�s house (not that I would be very good at housework in any case).

Dave

Jamie,

Your kids� rate of acceleration is similar to what I myself experienced as a kid (and I think a number of other posters here also) and to my own kids� rate of acceleration.

When I was a kid and was asked how I liked school, I always replied �OK� or �fine.� I really did not hate school, I never cried myself to sleep because of school, or anything like that.

However, especially in grade school, I was extremely, almost continuously, bored. (We were tracked in junior high and there were honors/college prep courses in high school, so that was a bit better.)

I would read all of the textbooks through during the first couple months, and then stare out the window and day-dream the rest of the year (rather relaxing, but�).

So, I think we need to be a little bit careful in thinking that very bright kids are �happy� in traditional school � they may not be really sad or acting out, but they may just be compliant kids who assume that part of the price of being a child is being bored to death for a thousand hours a year, kind of like going to the dentist for 180 days each year.

If you think your kids would be really unhappy homeschooling (or if you think you would hate it), don�t do it. Also, if you can work out a true independent study situation within the walls of the school � not a little bit of enrichment but a situation where they can really work on material at their own level most of the time � that might be great.

Otherwise, my own advice would be to very seriously consider homeschooling. In the best of all possible worlds, the schools would be sort of education centers which accommodated all sorts of mixes between homeschooling and classroom schooling, and if you can work out something like that (which would be quite unusual) that would also be great. We�re homeschooling through a charter school that supports homeschoolers (and which pays for a lot of the curriculum material): this is working out nicely for us.

The other serious issue is gender. Like you, we have two girls. Early in grade school, there seems to be no social issue with girls being bright. But, even in middle grade school, I�m starting to see a few faint hints of the anti-geek/girls-can�t-be-bright syndrome that pervades our country. From what I have seen among children of friends and relatives, that attitude seems to be overwhelming by middle school.

I�m not trying to engage in some sort of feminist rant here when I say that I find that social attitude utterly and totally despicable. That human beings would be discouraged from developing their intellectual abilities to the fullest because of their gender is bizarre beyond words.

Even homeschoolers cannot (and should not) totally control their kids� social experiences. But our kids are by definition free of that hothouse 30-40 hour a week environment that stifles individuality and pressures one to conform to the group. Talking to adult female friends, I think that pressure is a lot tougher for girls than guys. It�s accepted that many guys are �geeks,� �loners,� etc., and I never really felt socially ostracized in school (I was never invited to the jock/cheerleader parties, but then I didn�t want to go to those parties anyway). But I�m told by adult female friends, especially those who excelled academically, that they really did feel some serious pain from the social experience in school.

I don�t think that sort of pain is or should be a natural part of growing up, and I think homeschooling can (partially) avoid some of that.

As to whether to act proactively now or wait until problems develop, I think there�s something to be said for the saw that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Of course, in the end, you have to work out what is best in your own situation � I�ll be curious to hear how things develop.

All the best,

Dave

Dottie,

Well, actually my kids like going to the dentist (they�ve never had any cavities). But perhaps it would get dull doing it 180 days a year.

You wrote:
>Case in point....my bright middle school child is in excellent company, boys and girls alike!

I always had friends in school, too, usually bright kids (although early in grade schools, my best friends were a mid-level student and a nice guy who happened to have some problems academically). And, we did not even have the jock-nerd conflict in our high school. As the undisputed top nerd, I myself was actually friendly with the three co-captains of the football team (as I said above, they did not invite me to their parties, but then I would have declined an invitation anyway).

Of course, perhaps I was less socially accepted than I recall, and I was just too clueless to realize it. Near the end of my senior year, the girl I�d been sitting next to all year in lit class, and of course having casual conversations with through the year (she was an average student), one day turned to me and said, �You know, Dave, you�re actually okay.� This would seem to imply that she had spent much of the year trying to decide whether or not I was �actually okay.� (I thanked her for her endorsement.)

Anyway, thinking back to high school, the bright girls did seem to be somewhat socially isolated. As I recall, the only guys, even among the good students, who hung out with the bright girls were me and my best friend. This was fine with me, of course: as a guy, I found it rather convenient that most guys seemed uninterested in the bright girls, since I myself was only interested in the bright girls.

Talking to bright adult female friends now (including my wife), most of them do seem to have rather negative memories of the social situation in junior high and high school. I hear that from very few guys � I think there is a real gender difference here (and I�ve read some sociology that seems to back this up). I get a very strong impression from a lot of people, not just kids but also parents, that a �geeky� boy is kind of weird but that a �geeky� girl is just beyond the pale, especially in the high-school years � an attitude that I find unacceptable.

I don�t know if your child is male or female � that could make a real difference. And it will be interesting to see how it works out in high school.

I certainly agree with you that it can be different in different schools � as I said, our school lacked the supposedly universal nerd-jock conflict. But the anti-geeky-girl meme does seem to be awfully widespread.

You also wrote:
>But our schools are nothing like you describe, even with the "easy" work factored in!

Could you elaborate? My remarks on being bored to death were mainly about grade school, which I think is Jamie�s current issue. Were your kids in a situation in which most of their work in grade school was up to their level of ability?

We were tracked in junior high, and, in high school, I was mature enough to seek out teachers with whom I could develop independent study plans (we had a �progressive� principal who was flexible and supportive of such plans). So, junior high and high school were not that bad academically. But grade school was largely a waste of six years.

Was your kid�s experience in grade school different from mine?

It�s true that a lot of us who are homeschooling are a bit evangelical on the subject, but I do realize that homeschooling is not the right solution for everyone. If the parent or child can�t or doesn�t want to homeschool, or if the local school offers an arrangement that gives a good fit to the kid�s academic abilities, of course homeschooling may not be the right solution. On the other hand, a lot of people who are considering homeschooling like the idea but are scared of �taking the leap,� so I think we homeschoolers do have an obligation to explain to them that homeschooling is not as scary as it seems and can actually be fun. And, the tone of Jamie�s post sounded to me as if her �gut feelings� are making homeschooling sound appealing to her and she was looking for feedback as to whether her gut feelings are leading her astray.

I do think everyone should seriously consider homeschooling as one of several options, just as everyone should consider traditional public schools, private schools, alternative charter schools, etc. You are not likely to make an optimal decision if you do not consider all the options.

I actually think the ideal situation would transcend the homeschool/classroom-school distinction with schools being basically �education malls� where you could pick and choose what you wanted and combine that with homeschooling, with outside-of home-and-school activities, etc. But I do not know of any school that yet functions that way.

All the best,

Dave

I agree, Dottie. As a non-evangelical HSer (LOL!), for whom HSing is a solution to a practical problem (An HG+ child in a poor fit public school) rather than a philosophy, I think that it's good to consider the options. But once you have, I think you can move on.

You have, so you should!

The irony of this all suddenly struck me. In the country at large, homeschoolers are definitely the minority, often mocked or mistreated because of their decision. As a result, a little defensiveness makes sense, as does a certain evangelical-ness when you have found that homeschooling really works.

So the irony is that for HG+ kids the tables are turned. Most of the books and articles talk about the dangers of sending HG kids to regular school and how most parents eventually turn to homeschooling. So as I read those articles and see more and more parents turning to homeschooling, I am the one who starts to feel defensive. I, who have a kid in a regular public school placed in his age-appropriate grade, start to feel like I don't quite belong here (maybe my kid isn't gifted? maybe I'm a bad parent? maybe they are all laughing at me). The same kinds of insecurity and defensiveness start to grow. And I start of feel a little evangelical about regular school. I seem to have found the one little pocket of the country where I am the minority.

Usual disclaimer: I'm not saying anyone is actually trying to make me feel defensive. I'm pretty good at getting defensive under pretty benign circumstances--just ask DH!

LOL! This is one reason why I'm a big fan of the "share and shrug" method of discussion about all of this education business. In other words, saying "Here's what worked for us, here's what failed miserably for us; now, do whatever you want with that info--and doing nothing whatsoever with it is perfectly fine."

I simply cannot get all worked up about what you (in the generic sense) choose to do to educate your child, since I know neither your child nor your situation in any real sense. You're the expert, and if you think it's working, and you are a thinking person who is aware of your options, then it IS working!

(BTW, the "aware of your options" part is the one place where I suppose I might seem to be evangelical. I do hate to see people reject home schooling out of some mistaken sense of what it is. I try to clear up misconceptions so people can make educated choices, free of misleading myths. No more, no less.)

Your decision has no bearing whatsoever on my choices, so I have no vested interest in what you decide to do to educate your child. Even if every single HG+ child in the country were HSd, we'd still be in the minority, so there's no reason for me to campaign to "convert" you. Personally, I want every HG+ kid--heck, I want every non-HG+ kid, too!--to be educated in a way that works for them. That's my personal stake in the situation, and nothing more.

Don't second-guess yourself, acs! If you are watching carefully (as I know you are!) and it seems to be going well for your child, then it is. Period.

(And here's where the shrug comes in...)

<shrug> You're the expert on your child and your school and your situation. There is no one right way. I always say, I'm not dealing in theory, where I commit to "one right way!" no matter what; I'm dealing in practice! Reality! The ever-changing conditions of trying to guide an HG+ child through a world not made for him. "One right way" isn't going to cut it even for just one child, let alone for all of them!

If it works for your family, then it works, whatever "it" is! So I say that for you, acs, "Yay! Rah! Public school!" More power to you!

And that's why I (generally) don't feel defensive, and I hope you won't either. Share and shrug!

Dottie,

You know, I�m really not twisting your arm trying to get you to homeschool! It would, indeed, be awfully weird if you suddenly changed all the plans you�ve worked out over the years for your kids� education just because of the opinions expressed on this board by some guy you don�t even know!

As you say,
>Honestly, if we were starting over from scratch, I might more strongly consider home schooling. But given that mine are now in 8th/5th/5th, with "smooth sailing" for the most part, I think it's a moot point for us.

Of course.

My post to which you replied was not directed to you but to Jamie � Jamie seemed to be asking for our no-holds-barred opinions and experiences and so I presented mine. It was not an attack on you. Of course, it�s great that you chose to comment on my post � I�d guess that this is the kind of discussion Jamie hoped to hear.

Before I had posted, acs had posted a message relating some negative homeschooling experiences she had observed. Again, she was responding honestly to Jamie � no one thinks acs was trying to convince Kriston, me, etc. to not homeschool.

I hope that is clear to everyone.

On the substance of the matter, I think you and I do have slightly different values we are bringing to the whole issue. You wrote earlier in the thread:

>I think you also need to consider your own goals for schooling. Is it to nurture your children to their absolute fullest potential? Then public school is probably not the best choice for any child. But if your goal is a more well-rounded approach that exposes them in areas you might not pursue at home, accepting limitations in other areas, perhaps school is the best.
>I have times where this thought gives me great pause. I know I can take my children further in the key academic subjects, but I can't give them other things they find at school.

Yeah. Clearly, no one here thinks that having friends does not matter at all, and no one thinks that academics are irrelevant either. But we all are going to give slightly different weights to those considerations.

In response to my post, you wrote:
>It does seem to boil down to the right friends/peers in many situations, and my girls at least seem off to a great start.

I think I see that as less of an issue than you do. Clearly, having horrible experiences with peers is a bad thing. But academic/intellectual issues mattered much more to me as a kid than social issues, and also matter more to me vis a vis my own kids. I�m not willing to trade off much academic quality for positive social benefits.

I taught myself Einstein�s special theory of relativity in seventh grade. To me, any adequate school has to offer relativity to seventh graders (not that everyone would choose to learn it then). I think kids can start learning calculus by sixth grade (not mastering it, but then I�ve never known anyone who had mastered calculus after their first course at any age), so my idea of an adequate school includes making that possible for its students. I have similar expectations in history, economics (I studied Keynes� �General Theory� in high school in detail and figured out what the errors were � he messed up in his use of units), etc. (Incidentally, I am not at all sure I was �gifted�: I was just really curious about a lot of stuff and did not see any reason I couldn�t learn about it.)

Obviously, there are not many schools that meet my idea of an adequate school (and I do understand why it is difficult for them to do so)! So, it makes sense that we are homeschooling.

I suspect that you, and probably most people on this board, have somewhat less demanding concepts of what counts as an adequate school than I do.

I suspect that I may also have a different conception than many people of what social experiences count as �positive�: I think that �socialization,� even with good peers, tends to boil down to learning to be like other people (which of course is one of the reasons why it is better to have �good� peers than �bad� peers). I think that is a bad thing. I want my kids to be honest, courteous, kind, etc., but I would rather they be a bit blind to all of those little social cues and pressures that cause most people to fall in line with the �group,� whether what the group is doing is good or not.

I think that for people who share my values, homeschooling probably is the wisest choice to make. But no one has identical values to another person, and everyone has to decide for himself or herself what is best based on his or her own values. I�m really not trying to convince everyone to homeschool.

All the best,

Dave

acs,

You wrote:
>In the country at large, homeschoolers are definitely the minority, often mocked or mistreated because of their decision. As a result, a little defensiveness makes sense�

I�m not sure that most homeschoolers are very defensive about homeschooling, except in the limited sense of wanting to protect their legal rights. E.g., out here in California, a lot of us are rather concerned about the recent state appellate court decision against homeschooling (although it does not affect my kids since they are enrolled in a public charter school, and we do expect the decision to be overturned on appeal to higher courts anyway).

And, in fact, when I have talked both with acquaintances and with random strangers about our homeschooling over the last four years, I�ve gotten an overwhelmingly positive response. I think the reason for this is all the news stories about how US public schools stack up poorly against schools in many other countries, and also the obvious behavioral and social problems in many US public schools. Perhaps, evangelical homeschoolers who announce that they are homeschooling to protect their kids from Satanic influences (such as evolution!) get a less sympathetic response than I�ve gotten, but we are homeschooling for primarily academic reasons (I�d like my kids to understand evolution better than public school kids do).

The main �defensiveness� I�ve seen among homeschoolers is among the �unschoolers,� and those who lean in that direction, who are defensive about their kids� being behind in grade level even in the three Rs (not all are, of course, but there are some who are). In fact, I stumbled on this site because I was getting tired of keeping quiet about the fact that my kids were way beyond grade level in academic subjects � it makes it hard to share information on books and resources when it is considered ill form to mention that your kids are academically advanced.

I was actually rather startled to see the interest in homeschooling here. My guess is that homeschooling seems more prominent in the �gifted community� than it really is, simply because of the novelty factor: after all, homeschooling is �news� but sending kids to the public schools is not news. I wonder if anyone really knows how widespread homeschooling is in the �gifted community�?

You wrote:
>I, who have a kid in a regular public school placed in his age-appropriate grade, start to feel like I don't quite belong here (maybe my kid isn't gifted? maybe I'm a bad parent? maybe they are all laughing at me). The same kinds of insecurity and defensiveness start to grow. And I start of feel a little evangelical about regular school.

Well, for my part, I thought your description of some bad homeschooling experiences that you knew of was quite appropriate: that�s the sort of information Jamie was asking for. As Kriston has said, homeschooling is not a goal in and of itself. The purpose is to give children the fullest opportunity to develop their potential (hopefully, in a way that does not make them miserable).

For some of us, homeschooling seems to be a good way to achieve that goal. But homeschooling is not a magic bullet. It�s certainly possible to do it badly � personally, I�m doubtful about how the unschoolers are doing it (but it�s their families, not mine � in a free country, we accept that other people will make decisions we disagree with). Even those of us who try hard to do a good job homeschooling are certainly not perfect � we just try our best.

Anyway, I agree with Kriston: the goal is to figure out how bright kids can receive better educations than they are generally now receiving. To the degree any of us can share information about methods, resources, ways of thinking that can help reach that goal, we�re all better off.

Incidentally, most of my children�s friends out there in the real world actually attend public schools � the local home school group is just way too �unschoolish� for us. We did just find out last week that one of the other kids in their dance class was also homeschooled, but, by and large, it seems to me just as foolish to limit our interactions to others who are pursuing the same educational method as we are as it would be to limit our interactions to people who held the same political or religious opinions or had identical tastes in art and music that we have. Aside from the fact that it is boring to interact with people exactly like yourself, I�m not sure where I could find people exactly like myself � it would limit human interaction quite considerably.

It�s probably unavoidable that we homeschoolers sound a bit enthusiastic since we are working hard at something that we think is working out pretty well; and I do think we owe it to people like Jamie to share our positive experiences and our reservations about the public schools, just as you owe it to Jamie and everyone else to share your cautionary tales about homeschooling and how you have worked things out for your kids within the public schools.

But it would certainly be a shame if you really felt you did not belong here! (And, yeah, I do know the universal parental anxiety of �OMG! Am I doing the best thing for my child?� I fear that is part of being a parent for all of us.)

All the best,

Dave

Dave,

One alternative that is not discussed much here is independent schools for the highly gifted. My dd7 is currently attending one and she is extremely happy. She is being challenged academically (advanced 2 years in math from 2nd to 4th and working on middle school level problem solving on the side with the help of a mentor in the school). The math team has achieved gold level nationally (only three schools in the country received this honor). The school has an excellent drama, music and art program.

I hate to admit it, but I don't consider myself to be the best educational option for my dd. I can and I am a facilitator in my daughter's education. I drive an hour to school each way because I feel this to be the best match for my dd at the present time. I provide my dd with all the books she needs/wants. I take her to the museum and encourage her when she wants to research a topic in more depth. When I see an area that I feel she needs to study more, I sign her up for additional lessons. I also provide a respite by being only mom and not her teacher as well (at least not full time). I would imagine it would be very difficult to separate the two (mother and teacher) if I were to HS.

My point with all this rambling is that there is no one option that works for every child. My daughter is thriving in her current placement, but there have been children before whose needs could not be met at this school.

HS may be great, but I don't feel it would be the best choice for us. Public school is working for some children, it didn't work for us. Private schools for the highly gifted are rare and expensive and not particularly available for all the children who need them.

One thing is clear. All the parents in this group care deeply for their children. That alone makes them very fortunate. Our approaches may differ, but our goals are the same. To get the best education for our children and help them soar.

Bianca, what a nice post. And now I know why you're up so early in the morning!

Also, I never thought HS was an option for us until I came to this board. Now, I realize that our local private schools will not work for DS, and our choice as to whether to continue in public school (which means extra work after school) or to HS depends upon how he is doing. For now, we're in a holding pattern. The toughest thing for us is the 2E - the local private schools don't want the 2nd E (whatever anyone's 2nd E is, why admit a child who requires more work), and the public school can't address the other E. All of a sudden though, he seems happy with the other kids in school, so we'll see how it goes. Of course, this is a week of half days for conferences with vacation starting Friday, so it's really a week of fun and games. So for us, at the moment, the answer is we won't switch a happy child. If he becomes unhappy again, however, we know just what to do. It's so nice to know there are options.

Thanks so much to everyone for your replies! This seems to be a very diverse and dedicated group and I have enjoyed reading all the different perspectives! I don't have much time now but wanted to post and let you all know I have been reading and will try to put together a lengthier response later. Thanks again!

I have some stuff to say about this, but I fear we're in danger of commandeering Jamie's thread.

I'm going to go start a new thread on the topic of "Defensive Homeschoolers?" Please follow me if you're interested...

Thanks!

K-

Jamie, what would you do if there was a magnet gifted school your children could attend next year? Would you enroll them even though they are happy in their current school right now? Would you put them to a different school because you believe that they would learn much more there than in their current school? Would you do it even if it meant leaving behind all their friends? Would it all seem worth it even if they are happy right now?

Now is hs that scenario far away from a gifted magnet school? On the educational level probably not, hs may actually work better since most gt schools are not perfect fit for HG+. Of course the social dynamics of hs would be completely different than going to school and you would be in a position of parent & a teacher. I think Bianca is right on that one, it's hard to be a Mom when you are a teacher as well.

I don't think a kid needs to be unhappy before you switch to hs. Hs is just a different educational choice. It may be right for you and your child and it may not. I think you should discuss it with your spouse and hint a little bit to your daughters and see what they think.

DS5 is not unhappy at his school, but going to the junior class would mean completely new kids, new teachers, new building and also full time schedule which he is strongly opposed to. Homeschooling seems like better educational choice for him. If it doesn't work he can always go back.

Dave, talking about hs groups. Have you checked
http://giftedhomeschoolers.org/giftedresourceselsewhere.html

California seems to be a great place for HS gt kids. I went to see our local school group and I must say there are lots of unschoolers too. One of the comments that sticked with me was "Then my son decided to go to high school and had to work really hard with a tutor for a year because he hadn't done any real academics before." Oh my.

If anybody has any idea how to find out if your hs group has gifted children, let me know. I don't think it's a question I can really ask

My stealthy way has been to be part of a GT group and be part of a HS group, and then I note which of the kids I see both places.

It's the only way that's worked for me!

Dottie,

In all honesty, I should say that I think you and I have *slightly* different values and attitutdes -- if we sat down and had a long talk on the subject, I think we would find that are views are pretty close together. I may have made it sound as if you and I are on different sides of the moon, and surely that is not the case!

Our main difference, as Kriston has suggested, is simply that you have, over the years worked out a situation for your kids in the public schools that you�re happy with and that I have worked out a homeschooling situation with our kids that we�re happy with.

Incidentally, there are quite a few homeschoolers (no one here, I think!) who consider me a �traitor� to homeschooling because we are signed up with a public charter school. Perhaps. (I actually sort of see their point, in fact.) But the well-being of our kids takes priority over �loyalty� to the �homeschooling movement.�

I think everyone here is really on the same side.

All the best,

Dave

bianc850a,

Yeah, I agree in principle that a school such as you describe could meet my own criteria for an �adequate school.� I�d want to know how flexible they are in their use (or non-use) of textbooks or workbooks and a lot of other things. I�d also want to know whether they had the teaching resources and the flexibility to help seventh-graders learn about relativity, sixth-graders learn about calculus, etc.: I really was not being facetious about that. Give me a group of seventh graders in the top ten percent who actually want to learn special relativity and I could teach it to them in a semester (I�d use the same book I used � Bondi�s �Relativity and Common Sense,� which can be understood by any bright kid who has mastered grade-school arithmetic, supplemented with Gamow�s wonderful �Mr. Tompkins in Wonderland�).

But on the face of it, your school does sound very good. And, of course, I can only match your music, drama, and art programs by going outside our home � I can teach some basic music theory, but I�m not competent to teach the rest.

However, I don�t think there is such a school anywhere near us (we�re in Sacramento), and I actually do like teaching our kids (of course, sometimes, I want to escape! -- but usually, I enjoy it). One other factor for me is that I have very distinct views on politics and religion, and, while I do not want to shove those views down my kids� throats, I�m not willing to pussyfoot around in teaching science and history to avoid offending political or religious sensibilities. For example, I think Lincoln clearly could have avoided the Civil War � if that�s true, it�s hard to see him as a great President (no, I�m not a Confederate sympathizer, my sympathies are actually with the radical abolitionists, such as William Lloyd Garrison). Similarly, we started on evolution in kindergarten � no way will I take the tack that �evolution is just a theory�! There is more evidence for evolution than there is that the earth moves around the sun, and I�m making certain that my kids know that.

I think it would be unlikely that an independent school would have the courage to be forthright in presenting or even discussing such views, even if the founders of the school actually shared my views � too many parents would be offended. So, I�d probably continue to homeschool even if we had such a school available. But I�d certainly consider a school such as you describe, I think anyone here who has such a school available definitely should seriously consider it, and I agree with you that it may be an excellent route for many families to pursue.

As Kriston and I have both said, homeschooling is definitely not some magical solution that will work for every family. It�s just one possible solution that everyone should consider among many possibilities, and it does work for some of us. In fact, as I've said several times, for me, I think, the ideal solution would be an �education mall� where one could mix and match homeschool and classroom-based approaches as one wished.

All the best,

Dave

Hi Dave,

I actually know a couple of father's at my dd's school that share your views. We have started a Friday multicultural discussion group and such topics often come up.

The school is semi-flexible. They do have a curriculum they follow but they allow children to study additional subjects they are passionate about.

I wanted to thank you for the book references. My dd just received THE WAY LIFE WORKS and she has been reading for an hour. I also ordered THE LIFE OF FRED. Should be getting those tomorrow. I am always looking for enrichment resources. Looks like my dd really liked the science book.