Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Learning Environments How much input/control do your kids have?

as far as their learning environment. Like, do you homeschool because they asked for it and you can accomodate that? Do you ask them what they would like their classroom to be like, then try to push the school to change that?

I'm confused because I feel like our school is saying that DD8 has to learn to "get along" and "behave" and "do her work" like the rest of the kids, but, as the same time, she is obviously NOT like the rest and we are spending time asking her what rewards she would like for completing work. Aren't these conflicting messages?

The psych pulled her out of class to talk to her and set up some things and rewards but even the rewards DD asked for don't seem to be motivating her. Then they ask me what does she have to say about school (not much, btw) but at the same time they are saying that she can't be in control of the environment or something?

The school counselor also suggested that she is using the possiblity of switching schools like a manipulation, but if a kid is so bothered by noise and does fine when it's quiet, why wouldn't I try to find a quieter place for her? Also, she cried when I brought it up, but only because of friends, not the classroom or teacher...

I already told them that they psycholgist I talked to said the 2/3 split (not GT and she's in 3) was a terrible idea and she hasn't even MET my DD yet! But the school didn't want to hear that. So what's the point if they aren't going to listen?

We switched schools this year, from a small arts charter to a gifted magnet. We actually gave DD the final call, as we were incredibly torn on what to do. She made a pro/con list and chose the magnet. I do think she knew that we were more inclined to switch than not, but she is an independent little cuss and I don't know that it influenced her. She has some nostalgia for her old school and some frustration that the new one isn't more challenging in some areas, but overall she seems to be very happy with the switch. The work is well within or below her abilities at the new school, but we do find the homework load heavy.

Here's a quote attributed to George Bernard Shaw for the administration to ponder:

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

Better yet, they should get a copy of Stanley Milgram's "Obedience to Authority", and ponder whether they should be training children to be in the 65% who went along with the 'experiment' or the 35% who refused.

Can you tell that I homeschool, lol?

I have taken the view that, while it is important for my son to learn to tolerate environments he finds stressful and learn to amuse himself quietly when bored, it is not necessary for him to learn those things at the same time he is supposed to be mastering academic subjects. There's plenty of time for him to learn to be calm in noisy, visually cluttered, boring environments while waiting in line at the grocery store. He knows what kind of environment he works best in, and I expect that, as an adult, unless he was truly desperate, he would rightly turn down a job that required him to work in an environment that was distressing, made it hard for him to function, and consisted of tasks that were completely unengaging. I don't think that teaching him to ignore what he knows he needs is really a lesson I want to teach him. I do try to teach him that there is a difference between 'need' and 'want' with respect to this, BTW. If the low challenge level and the distracting environment are making it hard for your DD to function, I think looking for ways to change the situation is warranted.

If the other children in her class are getting to learn new things most of the time, and she is not, and if they don't find the noise painful and distracting and she does, I can see why she would feel resentful and uncooperative, and I don't think that it is reasonable to expect her to put up with an environment and a curriculum that doesn't work for her when there are other options.

aculady-can I print that out and take it to the school? lol!!!

and it seems that intolerance for the stressful environment seems to increase as the "giftedness" increases, yes? She already scored 99.6 on the Raven (well above our dist. 98% minimum for GATE classes)

The school's apparent refusal to even consider moving her to another class distresses me, as does the counselor saying that she might be refusing to do the work because she WANTS (or maybe thinks) to be homeschooled. It seems they are both asking me what her deal is, which means I have to discuss this with her, yet they are also saying to NOT talk to her about it or let her think she has control over it. Wouldn't it actually be better to let her *think* she has control, when in reality, of course I am making the important decisions?

I work for myself, from home, because I got tired of essentially, less intelligent(though well educated) people telling me what to do. When I was a nurse, I worked for an agency so that if I didn't like a place, I didn't have to go back. We celebrate creative, free thinking, strong willed individuals, but I guess only if they keep their mouths shut until adulthood?

they want me to take her for outside counseling, but did not say for how long until we revisit the issues or how much weight they would give to what the psych says. They couldn't answer for me "What if the test and the reccomendation is acceleration or more engaging work" And the teacher's response is that she IS giving that level of work, but DD still refuses to do it.

so master-did you wind up homeschooling, public, private...can you give some details?

When asked, she says she does not want to change schools, but she also says she would like to do school on the computer. I did find some short questionaires to go over with her, but what she REALLY wants is more art and more reading. She doesn't really say school is boring, but it's obviously not holding her attention. The school seems to think she is CHOOSING to not cooperate, but I don't think that's it. The sadness on her little face when I asked if she felt in control of herself and her inablity to express whatever it is she feels about school had me in tears!

We have several options, from trying to give her what she needs in the current classroom (where there are only 20 kids in that 2/3 split and a teacher I DO feel is trying very hard) to moving her to her home school (the one she's supposed to go to) that mixes GATE and regular kids, but each class is more than 50% GATE (gifted 98%-99.6% on the Raven) so the teachers teach more on that side. They also currently have a 3/4/5 seminar (99.8%+) but might be losing that teacher...we also have a "home school school" where they do most of the work at home and have one classroom day plus clubs, etc. Or we can choose a full online home school (still has clubs, field trips, events). That one is part of our district, uses the same cirriculum she is currently on, offers G&T options (including the newly added literature ananlysis for 2nd graders) and has "virtual classrooms" so teachers are actually teaching/reviewing the lesson. Also, that one is self paced, so if a child finishes a grade halfway through the year, they canstart the next. This option can accomodate subject acceleration as well...doesn't that sound awesome? Can anyone tell me what a downside to that might be?

I am also looking at two charter schools...one is a museum based school, but I can't count on her getting in and I think we want to move her over the holiday break, unless I see some HUGE improvement...

It's taken me a long time to even get to the place where I am willing to consider that she is truly INCAPABLE of making herself pay attention to the work she's given and that might NOT mean ADHD, but that she needs something so drastically different that we haven't even found it yet? And maybe she doesn't even need acceleration, but if she had art more often, maybe she would be able to pay attention to the rest...she often loses her chance to do an art project because she is still finishing other work

DD6 has tons of input. We pulled her out of K last year and homeschooled her because it was obvious she was becoming miserable. We brought her back to school for 1st grade and the GT program because that's what she wanted to do, because she wanted to have more friends. Now this year things are better than they were with K, but there are still some concerns, and right now we're working with the school to find some solutions, primarily based on the feedback that she has provided to us.

After all... if she doesn't tell us what's going on, how can we address it?

2gift: It sounds to me like the school is looking for an answer, and since it's so easy to blame the parents (it absolves them of responsibility), they're reaching for permissive parenting as an excuse.


And here, it sounds like the school is advocating authoritarian parenting, where the child gets no input and the adults make all the decisions. Terrible, terrible, terrible.

You're absolutely right to talk to your daughter about all of this and get her input. Ultimately, she doesn't get to make the final decision, but she does need to know that her opinions matter, that you care enough about her well-being to listen, and that she's not completely powerless to affect her own little world.

Because if the school really wants to figure out "what is her deal?", they're not going to figure it out without your DD's help.

As for why the rewards aren't working, I'd venture a guess based on some of the other comments you've made that the reason she's not doing the work is because of depression, which is too much for a sticker or a lollypop to correct. It's common in kids who are gifted and not challenged (we saw it our DD in K). I'd say a more drastic change is in order, because this classroom environment is not appropriate for her.

Wow, 2giftgirls, I think the school is being ridiculous! Clearly, the environment is not working for your dd, I don't understand what they think to achieve by keeping her there except break her spirit. If you are truly willing to take her out of the school if necessary, I would go to them and tell THEM exactly what your daughter needs and why the current class is not appropriate. And if they are not willing to provide it, then tell them she will not be returning. Even if she IS actively refusing to cooperate, she is doing so for a reason. And they should be working on figuring out what that reason is, rather than placing blame on her or you. Last year when my DS was in first, we had a terrible time where he was having meltdowns weekly and being taken out of the classroom for behavior issues, detention, etc. We had the meeting where I said, what is happening in the classroom when this happens? No real response. They just focused on him and what was "wrong" with him. He's disruptive, defiant, can't concentrate, maybe you should have your pediatrician evaluate his behavior. Finally, as a last resort, they switched him to his math teacher's homeroom and bam, all the behaviors disappeared immediately. Clearly, something in that first classroom was creating problems for him and once he was put in a better environment, the change was dramatic.

I have since theorized that the problems were a combination of some sensory irritant (he complained of the noise and I know the classroom was quite chaotic at times) and an unsympathetic and possibly overwhelmed teacher who only seemed to be aware of his problems and knew very little else about him. For example, at the parent-teacher conference she told me he was struggling in math. When I pointed out that his report card showed "above expectations" in all categories, she pulled out a worksheet as an example of how he was frustrated. It was a fill in the missing number sheet from 1-30 (!) and he had doodled and scribbled all over the edges. After, mind you, he completed the totally lame assignment. Clearly he had doodled to entertain himself after the 2 seconds it took him to answer the questions, not because he was frustrated!

Anyways, sorry to vent so much this just brought back bad memories, lol. But my point is that, like your dd's school, they tried to make it all about what was "wrong" with him but when they changed his environment they could not help but recognize the immediate difference that it made. Perhaps, before delivering any kind of ultimatum (if you plan on doing so at all) you could ask them to let her go to the other class for one week or even one day. If the difference is as obvious as it was with my ds, it will be hard for them to deny a permanent change. They are, after all, supposed to be interested in providing her with an appropriate learning environment.

LNEsmom-I think looking for change in another classroom is why we are still here...thinking it would get better the next year, the next...honestly, I don't think she would be better off in the other classroom...I think Mrs W is actually more tolerant and is trying harder for us, but I agree, I am very frustrated with the way they have blamed her for 3 years now and they don't seem to understand or believe me when I tell them that we don't have these problems at home. Our school is so small, it's not like we have a couple more classes, but we DO have that other 3rd...

We are taking her for private testing, but when I asked how much weight would be given to the psychologist's reccomendation, they are vague. They are incredibly resistant to the idea of her going to another class...it took me all this time to get her a seperate desk...I don't think our school is set up to provide subject acceleration and to be honest, if a grade skip is reccomended, I don't think we will stay...I think the kids would be fine with it, but some parents would raise a HUGE fuss...

I also agree that I think they are breaking her spirit. She just really seems misunderstood

They can't tell you how much weight will be given to the psychologist's recommendation because they don't know. It's a team decision, and until you meet, nobody really knows how it's going to go. I've gone into a meeting knowing what I was going to advocate for, and knowing what the school psych's recommendation was going to be. And then I've seen the combination of personalities that show up for the meeting and the information that comes to light take the team in a completely different direction.

As a professional, I prepare for the meeting, I might try to get a sense of what page each of the experts are on, including the parents. I try to avoid bombshells, because they are counterproductive. Surprises do happen, and if we knew how every meeting was going to turn out, we'd probably be guilty of predetermination.

Beckee-I think though they should at least tell me if acceleration (subject or whole grade) is an option or tell me that I should just take my kid to another school. I asked them what if that was what the psychologist said and they wouldn't even venture a guess as to what they would do.

You are a teacher, right? I thought I saw you mention it on another thread? What would YOU do with a kid like this? Mrs W says even when she offers the "GATE" or challenge work, DD is still resistant, defiant, etc...

I agree with aculady (also a homeschooler here)

2giftgirls, do you have the ability to homeschool your dd? It sounds as if she has completely lost her love of learning due to lack of challenge and a learning environment that does not suit her needs. I think learning in itself should be the reward not some artificial reward for doing "too easy, mind numbing" work.

My dd9 has a lot of input in what she learns and how we go about doing it. We homeschool and have from the start. Every year dd and I discuss what went well the year before and what she thinks she might like to learn about. There are certainly the non-negotiable subjects like math, reading, writing, etc...

History and science topics are generally chosen by me but when she is really interested in something we study it more in depth and if something doesn't captivate her, we simply do the minimum. She was already learning Spanish then asked to learn Gaelic (Irish music and culture is very big in her life right now) so now she is learning both languages. She asked to do more crafts and art so I include it more than we would if it weren't an interest and provide her with supplies to do it on her own time as well. She wanted to write her own "novel" so she has time to do that and when we edit together, she learns about grammar, spelling, punctuation, etc... With math, I had tried two different curricula with her and she preferred the online one so we went with that.

We work mostly as a team for her learning though I do reserve the right to have the final say.

donnapt-in the past, I would not have considered it. I have another DD4.5, who is a high energy, noisemaker. Even the homeschool environment might have been disruptive. However, I just put DD4.5 in a new private school, in a preK/K class and it's really stimulating to her, so...

I do work from home and we do have at least 2 "easy" homeschool options...we have a school for homeschooling (they have one classroom day a week, clubs, etc). We also have the option of an online homeschool that also has field trips, clubs, etc...The online one is part of our District as well, so it's free and with that one, she could work as fast as she wanted. They have gifted classes and even profile an 11 year old 8th grade student in the brochure.

Other options include trying our local school that does have gate classes and I am also looking at two charters, one of which is a museum school.

We do have lots of options if we leave this school, but we chose this school because I thought we would be able to have options, even if we had to ask for them, but it seems like not. I think the same small size we chose it for might mean that kids at the extreme ends of the learning spectrum are not well served and wind up leaving...we thought there would be more tolerance and flexibility in the smaller environment, but it's seeming more like the opposite, that because there's less kids, when one acts out of the norm, it's more obvious, so the teachers are even more pressured to squash that.

I just need to make sure before I go pulling the poor kid out of the main social environment she has, you know? We live in a condo and there's only one girl she sometimes plays with (that I don't think is a very good match for her, but...) so school is herr main place to be with other kids right now

oh, donna...something else you mentioned. When your DD is not captivated, you just do the minimum, but we are having the problem that often she is not doing the minimum (worksheets) in class. There's no guarantee whe will do it for me. I'm also concerned that because we've had so much trauma already when it comes to school, that she would start to associate that with me if I was the teacher as well...

We are still trying to sort out if it's gifted and bored or gifted and "something else"...and I'm still struggling with the idea that she migh be so bored that she cannot make herself pay attention...that she might need work 2 to 4 grade levels above what is being taught at school (we don't know that yet, just an example)..

Given her really terrible school experiences, if you were to go with the homeschooling option, I'd start with a "deschooling" period, and just visit the library, let her check out books at her level to read, go to museums, watch NOVA specials and travel programs...things that have "sneaky" educational content, but that don't seem coercive and that don't set up a power struggle. There are ways to work educational content including math, literature analysis, history, and science into just about any topic (ask me sometime about tabletop wargaming, lol...), so that your child is interested, engaged, and buying in to the process.

aculady-I'm secretly hoping the psych reccomends a grade skip so I have an excuse to not "school" her for a while and do like you are saying. I wouldn't say she seems depressed (maybe because she knows she will just sneak a book in class anyway, lol!) but she is SUCH a different kid in the summer *sigh*

2gift: Your posts make me feel so sad and bring back all the stress we went through last year with dd in kindergarten in a regional magnet. She began asking almost immediately for me to please find her a different school "I'll go to kindergarten anywhere else but Mommy, please, don't make me go back into that room." We tried working with the school and she just shut down. By the end of the year we had a clinically anxious 6 year old. How sad is that?

The school kept talking to me about her developing an ability to "self advocate" as she got older. I had to explain to them that she was already self advocating and THEY had to learn to listen to her. They weren't used to kindergarteners with such strong verbal skills so they just dismissed her. I had to focus very, very hard on listening to her words. It sounds like your dd may be doing some of this too - asking for changes, shutting down, etc. How can kids in this situation win when their self-advocating gets defined by the adults in charge as "manipulation"?

If your dd loves art then she needs to do art. Can you enroll her in some extracurricular art classes? If the school is recommending counseling maybe you can find an art therapist to work with her.

If your daughter is developing anxiety, depression or otherwise shutting down and losing her love of learning the situation will likely only get worse. "Next year" may indeed be better, or maybe not. Based on my dd's experience getting these kids out of these situations is the best thing to do if you have other options, as you indicate that you do.

With my dd it turned out that she had significant ld issues that no one at the school picked up on. Is it possible she is "refusing" to do worksheets, etc because of some ld being masked by the giftedness?

I know homeschoolers who do all the options you, aculady and Donna have described here. I also know people who "homeschool" in addition to regular school - they add every type of enrichment that can be to the child's week so they get the school experience and still explore their interests. Maybe something like that can work for you while you wait to see if next year will improve things.If you pull her out and go with the homeschool option I love aculady's idea about non-schooling for a while. Mine too was "SUCH a different kid in the summer" - we used that to her advantage and were able to get the anxiety under control through a detailed IEP at her new school.

Good luck and give your dd a hug from me. Please keep us posted.

I agree. A de-schooling period is a great idea.

You could also discuss with her what she would like to learn about. Does she have any interests? or subjects she enjoys? would she like to learn a foreign language?Maybe spend time at the library and let her pick out books she'd like the two of you to read together to figure out a good place to start if she doesn't have any ideas.

When you are homeschooling...it doesn't have to be "school-at-home." You can be more like a mentor to her, provide her with lots of options and good materials, sit with her to read together and learn side-by-side, make crafts, do projects and science experiments, visit historical places, etc... There are so many ways our kids can learn that don't require sitting and doing worksheets.

master-I guess I'm not sure that's what is best? I'm not, by nature, a person to second guess myself. I am satisfied with the way DD is in her home and most other environments and have had to remind myself many times that that is proof I'm a good mom...when all the problems are at school, that must mean school IS the problem, right? I just realized that even at last week's SST, I STILL feel like they are blaming me, trying to tell me to control her behavior. And they want to reinforce what the desire with rewards, instead of exploring more challenging work or some other school related change...the teacher also said DD refuses to do the challenging work she is sometimes presented, but maybe that is part of the problem too? Do they expect her to turn it on and off? Why isn't there ALWAYS more challenging work? They have harped on how they "can't" give her more challenging work until she does the basic, even though their own test score show she is capable of much more...but until we have some more indepth testing and assesment from the psych, I don't have much to take to the school to back me up. Honestly, I don't even know what kind of material I should be giving her...

The psych we will see specializes in gifted and 2e kids, and we briefly discussed schooling options...the "waiting" is the hardest part...I need the psych's report before I take drastic action...also, the school is a magnet, so I'm worried that just pulling her out will affect our ability to chose another in the future, like a black mark? If we go to the neighborhood school, they are on year round track (which is why I didn't want to go there in the first place), so I want her going in after a break...if I just stop bringing DD to school, they will send a truant officer to our house, I'm not kidding...

Depending on how much time we need to spend at the psych's, I am thinking of getting a contract. We have to formally tell our school that the kid will be out for more than a day or two and arrange to get their work for the week. I know about it because of the crap storm I got when I let DH take both girls to Vermont to visit him mom who had just been diagnosed with cancer. It was Feb and DD was in kindergarden! A contract might give me a chance to test homeschooling...

I work from home, so that makes homeschooling possible, but I'm not sure if I'm up to that challenge? I need to work as well...