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    #113982 10/17/11 09:38 AM
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    mnmom23 Offline OP
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    It seems like this has been discussed but I can't seem to find it anywhere, so . . .

    My DD is in 6th grade math at a new private school. In 5th grade she was in a math group that the teacher said was delving into quite a bit of what is considered 7th grade math at the middle school. So, we had her tested to see how what she was learning compared to the private school curriculum. She tested well, but not quite well enough to be placed in their 7th grade math. Unfortunately, her 6th grade math teacher admits she won't learn anything new until probably December. Since the other subjects are more challenging at her new school and since she's busy with a few afterschool activities, she decided she just wanted to do a little math at home in her free time. But, she really hasn't had much luck doing it consistently and really wants to learn new math concepts at school.

    We want to meet with her teacher this week to see what can be done to get her new, harder math within the classroom. However, they use Saxon math, which has a lot of repetition built in, and I'm not sure what to ask for. She doesn't want more work (although she says a little more work would be okay), just different work to actually learn something. There are no computers in the classroom for her to work independently on a different math program.

    Anyone have any ideas of what we can ask her teacher to do for her within the context of Saxon math?


    She thought she could, so she did.
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    AOPS - art of problem solving. How about getting her a laptop?

    Mindware.com has some different math workbooks.

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    mnmom23 Offline OP
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    Thanks, I never thought about getting her a laptop to take to school to work on.

    Unfortunately, DH spoke to the teacher yesterday and the teacher says that a lot of the girls are finding the math to be easy review and that things will get harder by mid-November. When DH pointed out that he'd looked through the entire book and it was virtually all what she'd learned last year, she said if DD still felt unchallenged by the end of November we could talk again.

    I did just find out, though, that DD's new school has no record of her IQ and Achievement scores. This might explain the "we have lots of smart kids" comments. Even though I believe that her new school has more peers for her, they can't have "lots" at the 99.9th percentile. Now I just have to decide if we give them the scores right away or wait until the conference at the beginning of November.

    Until then, I've gone to the library and found some books on Algebra that seem to have good explanations of algebra concepts with just a few questions per topic. Even though it doesn't improve her school situation any (might eventually make it worse), afterschooling may just have to work for now.


    She thought she could, so she did.
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    I have to share my experience with saxon here, for DD last year, we were planning to join her in a school which follows saxon math curriculum, school principal was boasting that Saxon was very dificult curriculum and lot of pupils need additional help at home. DD was 4 that time and we are looking for a grade skip. principal said no way she was going to skip on saxon curriculum and we had to join her in a different school anyway... But we started doing that at home just out of curiosity and within 1 year from Feb last year to may this year she completed first, 2nd and midway through 3rd. first half of a grade is basically 2nd half of previous grade, at least in Gr 1-3.
    for gifted kids it is kind of very repetetive, DD had done a week worth of material several times over the weekends

    just my experince,

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    I am a retired university math professor and a parent of grown gifted children. Many people like Saxon books because they improve test scores and reinforce skills through problems and repetition. They helped our younger "creative gifted" but forgetful son in that respect. Still, I want respectfully to urge that math instruction, especially for gifted kids, not be limited to Saxon.

    After years of using them over my objections, apparently to raise test scores, our expensive private school lead math teacher finally told me they were switching away from Saxon because "we found out that after using Saxon the kids didn't understand anything".

    From my memory, the books are very mindless rote learning in their approach, symbol pushing as opposed to thinking. I recall they even look ugly on the page, presenting math as a utilitarian subject with no interest or beauty. As I recall one learns how to multiply "X's" together but not what "X" means. Harold Jacobs on the other hand uses empty boxes instead of X's at first, to convey the idea that X is a place holder for other things to be put into. This works so well I have since used it often in college for algebra review.

    Even my son who appreciated the repetition, started in glee at the difference between Saxon and the book of Harold Jacobs when I showed it to him. "This is interesting!" (neither of our very bright kids did especially well in math courses in college, at least at first, even though the younger one had higher SAT math scores than mine. The older one, who had won state wide math competitions as a child, went to Stanford where the highly challenging courses bore no resemblance to his high school AP test oriented courses.)

    If Saxon is working for you, then use it for its strengths, but I strongly suggest gradually trying to supplement it with more substantive material. Math is about reasoning, not (just) symbol pushing. The fact that Saxon apparently raises standardized test scores is a statement about the level of such tests.

    Even the one outstanding math teacher at my university who appreciated Saxon, said Saxon had it right about giving lots of problems and repetition, but that he had it wrong about not giving hard problems.

    This is just one man's opinion/experience, but I cannot imagine anyone becoming a mathematician, i.e. learning to love and practice math, from using only Saxon. I feel it may have even helped cause my younger son to lose interest in math.

    If you have a really gifted/motivated math prodigy, you might try them out on Elements of Algebra, by the great mathematician Leonhard Euler. With guidance I taught topics from it to some super bright 8-10 year olds last summer before epsilon camp.

    http://archive.org/details/elementsalgebra00lagrgoog

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    Knowing that the school was not aware of how smart your kid is, I would push harder to get her into the accelerated math class.

    Some options:

    1. Schedule a meeting with the principal (or AP, in our school the AP does all the class changing), the teacher in the class you want your kid to get into, and your kid. Explain during the meeting (using her current book) that she's already mastered this material.

    I find that having that information coming directly from the kid is often much more convincing than the parent saying it, because school administrators often like to dismiss parents' opinions. You need to be there, but let her do most of the talking.

    2. If they won't put her in the class immediately, ask for a copy of the textbook and syllabus so she can shadow the class. This way she'll be ready to switch over when they finally cave and let her in. You don't want your kid to have to play catch up.

    3. Keep hammering away until you get what your kid needs. I find friendly persistence to be the best tool I have in advocating for my kids.

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    mnmom23 Offline OP
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    Hi. I'm the OP. I just noticed the more recent responses, so I thought I'd update.

    After many discussions with DD's 6th grade teacher and the 7-8th Grade Math Coordinator (who knows my daughter as her coach, but still, I don't believe, has seen her IQ scores), the only thing we were able to work out with them was for us to afterschool her with the Saxon Intro to Algebra coursework so that she can take Algebra I next year as a 7th grader.

    Unfortunately, after DD took 3 placement tests last summer, a placement test in January (all of which she did "very well on"), and the standard 6th grade placement test for next year's math placement, the math coordinator, who knows she's working on the Intro book on her own at home, just recently said to me that she'd like to give DD the Intro to Algebra final in August before school starts just to make sure that she's ready for Algebra I. The math coordinator's big hang-up is that the lastest edition of the Saxon middle school curriculum (2007, but new to the school this past year) is much harder than the previous edition and she's seen students struggle. Personally, I just don't think she can wrap her mind around the idea that a 10 year old doesn't find it difficult.

    So, DD has managed to get through lesson 40 in the Saxon Intro to Algebra book between March and now, despite having a very busy extracurricular schedule and still having to do the regular math at school. But, she has been finding it pretty easy and has needed very little instruction from us. There is (finally!) some new material, but you can tell she's rarely been challenged with math because she gets frustrated fairly easily on occasion. Once she's given a minute to relax, though, she fingures it out. Her strength, really, is thinking abstractly about math, but she just hasn't been given much opportunity over the years, so she's definitely not used to it. (BTW: Mathwonk, thanks for your thoughts. DD did Everyday Math for several years at a previous school. It's a more "creative" curriculum that encourages thinking about and understanding math, which I like a lot in theory, but since it was way too easy we never liked the curriculum. It required a lot of thinking about things that she instinctively already knew and she found that to be annoying.)

    My DH and I plan to insist that she take Algebra I no matter what next year. I can think of nothing she'd hate more than having to repeat Intro to Algebra when she's already done all the work afterschool. I think us insisting and the teacher seeing she can handle it are the only ways the math coordinator/teacher will ever believe DD is truly capable.


    She thought she could, so she did.

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