Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Just had first meeting with princ about sub accel

Oh, my. I'm glad that is over with. She met with me for an hour and a half. I had WJ III scores and report cards that all said she was advanced in all areas. I brought her alphabetizing homework from this week in which she did as a mirror image. I brought her math sample of division, multiplication, fractions and such from first grade and explained to her that they have not even learned these yet in third grade, this year.

SHE SAID...They have NEVER had a child in 4th grade skip to 5th. EVER! Not even the kids who go to Havard! (Sorry, not impressed) They have one boy who is in 6th grade this year doing 8th grade math (again, not impressed) AND he was NOT skipped in 4th grade. You have to wait until 6th grade to get ability grouped.

This same boy reports being challenged the whole time.

They assess the kids constantly. They group them in class on what they know and move them on from there.

We left it at "If my daughter taked the 4th grade end of year assesment at the beginning of the year with the others, and she requires the 5th grade math book, the teacher will give it to her.

Well, that sounds good.
Am I being sweet-talked?
Help!
I have been through this and DIFFERENTIATION DOES NOT WORK!

She assures me that, in her school, it does. She sympathized with what we were going through in third grade - in her same school system and thinks that things should be being handled differently.

She gave me some questions to ask the teachers...like, since my child has mastered this concept, when will you introduce the next one to her?

Very pointed questions, rather than saying just "my daughter needs more challenging work."

So there you have it...

What do you think? Is the wool being pulled over my eyes?

I asked if an IQ result would be helpful and she couldn't say for sure.

Maybe I should just go ahead and get one just to see.
She seemed unimpressed with the overall WJ III results of 99.6% and didn't comment on them.

She says, she will place her with a special teacher who will be able to challenge her, the same one this other boy had. AND to meet with him the first week of school to discuss 5th grade. Why do I feel like we just went backwards?

I love that I can write all this down. It helps me process. Any advice or feedback would be much appreciated!
Thanx!

Hi there.

I can really sympathize, it can be so hard to advocate. Give yourself credit for getting in there and pushing.

Just a couple thoughts - the principal should make sure the teacher is challenging your child - it should not be your job to challenge the teacher and force her(him) to differentiate appropriately.

It isn't always a case of them "sweet talking" you, they just have different priorities and beliefs.

How big is this district, can you go over the Principal's head to an asst. superintendent or a curriculum specialist (that is how we got our DS's subject acceleration to happen).

Have you had her do the SCAT test. I find that to be very useful (more than the IQ test). It helps a lot when you can show a principal that your child is scoring in the 90% compared to children 2-3 years ahead.

Can you advocate for online math at school, does your state allow partial homeschooling (where you just pull her for the one subject)?

If it makes you feel any better, our first meeting went very similar to this, but our son is now accelerated 2 years in math. It took about 8 months, but it happened.

I would start with SCAT. Based the SCAT results I might go for a full IQ test (but it may not make a difference). I would figure out if any other elementary school in the district has any child subject accelerated (if you don't already know) - community online message boards can be handy for that. I would get as much information out of the parents of that 6th grade boy as possible (I doubt they think he was adequately challenged ;0 ), including test scores if they happen to have them and are willing to share. I would def. find out if the district/state has a written acceleration policy. If it is small district I would start making friends with board of ed members.

Let us know what you find out, there are lots of ways to approach this, and it depends a lot of how much energy you have to get what you want, what you find out, the district (of course), test scores, and a whole batch of other things.

I haven't been in your position (yet), but thought you'd like to know that I have read that if you request an IEP for your child, the school has to do it. It's usually used for kids who are struggling to keep up with their grade level, but not only for that reason. It was mentioned that if you use the "magic" words, "My child's educational needs aren't being met." when you request the IEP, it tends to get their attention.

Is the OP's child disabled? That's a threshold question before being entitled to an IEP. Even if the answer is "yes", it is by no means clear that a disabled child who is advanced in all areas would be entitled to acceleration, etc., despite the entitlement to an "appropriate" education. (Of course if the school goes for it, so much the better; the Lillie/Felton opinion letter referenced by this page could help. I'm just sayin'.)

Just a few quick thoughts.

You should be proud of yourself for getting the ball rolling and for making the principal aware of your DD. It's a big first step!

An IQ test, whether accepted by the school or not, can be helpful because it can show that your DD is not only academically advanced (which your current data shows) but that she is also much more likely to learn at a faster pace than her peers. In our SD this in an invaluable part because they feel that a child can be academically ahead, but unless they learn at a very fast pace, could be put into a situation in which they can not keep pace if they skip. Plus, it can give you confidence in your advocacy.

I would write a letter (not an e-mail; and make a copy for your records) to the principal restating what you believe you talked about in your meeting and outlining any checkpoints that you established for determining whether her next year in school is going successfully. On that note, I would ask that you meet to reassess how things are going several weeks into the school year.

Also, I would request two other things. One, that they set up a meeting now between you and the teacher that the principal is saying your daughter will have next year. And two, an IQ test to determine your DD's general abilities. Like the PP said, if you request this in writing, I believe they must honor your request to at least test.

This whole advocacy thing is usually a long and ongoing process, so congrats on starting the conversation.

Is there some federal law granting the right to IQ testing, or are you basing that upon a law of the OP's state? Eager to learn here.

I have no idea who the boy is. All children in our district attend the same elementary school. k-3...then switch to the middle school 4-8. So no child in the district has ever been accelerated before 6th grade. So I told her that no child in my daughter's Montessori Kindergarted had ever been accelerated to 1st grade for writing, but she was and it was their idea!

Don't know what a SCAT test is. I will look it up. The only test she has is the Woodcock Johnson Acheivement test.

The woman I spoke with was actually the Vice-Pricipal of 4th and 5th grade, so I could go to the Pricipal of 4-8 grade.

IF my daughter COULD in fact do the 5th grade book in her 4th grade class, I would be satisfied, but I don't know if this is really going to happen. At least she was placed with a great math teacher, according to the vp...

I requested a IEP...No luck..my daughter is not disabled in anyway, except by her teachers not letting her learn.

I said over and over again that differentiation DOES and DID not work for my child in third grade. AND I gave examples and the VP seemed to understand and agree that it did not. But she thinks her teachers at the Middle School are better. She let me know that they were working on a pull-out program for G/T and I told her I was not interested...she was like "I don't blame you." I kid you not! What the heck! She told me that she "hears me," cause her son could make change for a $5 in kindergarten...SOOOO? Aren't we talking about MY kid...who received an acheivement score of 99.6% overall on the WJ? What the heck...Now, I'm just venting...but it will be nice to have a record of what we talked about later, when I get sucked into the games and manipulations of the administration.

I was so serious about advancing her in math and after one meeting, I'm considering that she may be able to receive proper instruction in the reg classroom..I really need the name of that boy and I really need to talk to his parents...I will have to ask around, I guess...that seems to get me places...Like here! I ask around! It really works to network. I might go ahead a sping for another test too. She actually likes taking them and it gives her hope to be able to get harder work!

Do you have the option of school of choice where you live? We got to the point with dd10 this past year that we seriously considered changing schools and that did seem to prompt the school to make changes b/c they seemed to be more interested in bending their policies than losing her.

My dd10 is 2e so some of her circumstances will be different, of course. We were told that, if the child wasn't selected for subject acceleration in math in 3rd grade, that it wouldn't be happening at all ever. Dd10 is very erratic in terms of achievement but has very high IQ scores and 98th-99th+ achievement scores on individual tests. Her group tests are very inconsistent, though, and those are what they use for placement.

My dd was subject accelerated in math for the first time in 5th grade this past year and did pass the district tests for continuing to accelerate in middle school. Point being, just b/c they tell you they've never done it, other kids have been adequately challenged without it, she'll have opportunities later... this isn't about other people's kids. This is about what is (and isn't) working for your dd. Would you be willing to change schools? Do you think that you'd get further with this school if you were clear that you would?

I wouldn't be comfortable with what you've been told myself. It does sound like a stalling technique and I wouldn't be surprised if the outcome next year is more of what you've gotten thus far.

The situation in my neighborhood elementary school in a Boston suburb is similar to yours, but I have different advice. In many schools, one can safely make the assumption that schools will do NOTHING extra for gifted kids, just tracking in math starting in middle school and for ability grouping high school. They will not try to identify gifted students, because they might have to DO something with them. Thus, it becomes PARENTS' job to manage the education of their gifted child, and the first step is identification. Therefore it is a good idea to have kids take the SCAT and/or EXPLORE, even if the school ignores the results. (I'd suggest IQ testing too if it were not so expensive -- it depends on the parents' finances.) Using results from tests like the SCAT, EXPLORE, and SAT, parents can decide whether any of the following options make sense:

(1) afterschooling in an area of strength (for example using EPGY or Singapore Math or Life of Fred for a gifted math student)
(2) enrolling in private courses (in my area, for example, Math Club http://www.themathclub.com/ or Russian School of Math http://www.russianschool.com/ )
(3) enrolling in a private gifted school
(4) homeschooling
(5) entering college early

I view the public schools as just a resource and will try to avoid letting them limit the educational progress of my children.

Actually, I'm not positive about this. It's something I've heard a lot, among other parents IRL and here. In our case, when we requested it in writing (for DSnow12) it was done immediately. I recall hearing that a school has a certain amount of time (30 days) to respond to a request for an evaluation. Of course, "evaluation" could mean different things. At the very least, it might be something the OP should look into in her state and district.

The SCAT is a standardized test, taken by computer at a Prometric test center, and it is used by the Johns Hopkins CTY talent search. What part of the country do you live in? Other talent searches serving various regions use the EXPLORE , which I recommend over (or in addition to ) the SCAT if possible.

I am not aware of any federal law that requires a school to provide IQ testing (or testing of any variety) unless there is the potential for special needs. State laws might vary of course. Not saying there isn't a federal law, but I don't think so.

I agree with Bostonian that Explore would be a preferred test, but since it won't be offered again until January, SCAT is the next best thing (and Sydness you can sign up to take SCAT pretty much anytime and Prometric centers are all over the place I think).

Ultimately IQ testing would be very helpful, but if your focus in on changing the school's position, I am not sure it will be worth much. Some parents are very confident in their perception of their children, but I found that having IQ results and SCAT tests made me feel much more justified in my advocacy efforts, and that helped me push ahead.

One thing I find interesting is that the VP seemed to admit they were not doing much for your child and that she needed "more," but kept saying they could not do this or that. Can you try to pin the school down on why they are so adverse to the subject acceleration. Initially our school hesitated because they didn't think DS was "so special." Once we had test scores showing he was, there were concerns about the floodgates issue (which never developed), social issues (which are not present although the concern continues), scheduling issues (which are valid but can be remedied if so desired). We just kept pushing against each concern politely and emphatically. We are not all the way there yet.

One other thing that can help is finding just one person in district who thinks what you are asking is reasonable. Sometimes people just don't want to be responsible for a decision that is unique or could cause problems, and if you find someone who will take responsibility, that can make all the difference.

Ultimately, you may have to do as Bostonian suggests, and focus on what you can provide.

I've been in your shoes too. Good for you stick up for your child. This is hard. I suggest looking into other options too, even if you are not ready to make a move now. It takes time to figure out a better move if you need it.

Also be careful about how much you push the teacher next year, because she can take it out on your child.

Get into Davidson ASAP and it might just work out that they talk to the school on your child's behalf in Sept. Also, consider have a Pschologist with gifted expertise present to the school DC's needs.

Good point. I'm not qualified to understand this criteria (I'm talented in art, not law) , but for what it's worth, I posted what I heard.

Wow! Thank you for ALL your resoponses. I'm still trying to figure it out.

The differentiation program they have sounds great in theory. They pretest on every unit. Then, the kids are divided into 5 groups where each group is working at the level they need the most work in.

They have placed her with a teacher who they say "knows how to accelerate kids." They says he can bring through pre-algebra in 4 and 5 and then in 6th she could could take algebra...but she didn't seem sure about that point.

We live in CT...southeastern. The law here is: They are required to identify, but not provide services for gifted. They take a group test at the end of 4th grade to identify.

DD9 has decided that if she worked hard on the 4th grade material over the summer, then she will do well on the end 0f year 4th grade assessment given during the first week of 4th grade to all students. If she does well, and I will have to pester to get the grade as they don't send it home, then I will be certain to demand to see the 5th grade math book she is working in. I did tell her that there was no way that they would skip anyone and she WAS so disappointed. I felt so bad, like I was letting her down. She said she wanted to be with the 5th graders. She is very socially advanced as well.

When I talked about her social issues the VP started to listen. Never listened about her abilities...but when I told her that the kids were labeling her as the "smart girl," and relying on her to do their work and yelling at her when she didn't do it good enough (score a goal in gym while they sat back and yelled) or finish the whole math project while the rest of her group is fooling around.

The VP actually seemed concerned about that part. Interesting to me. She also seemed interested in her friends, how her close friends are at least a year older and she is accepted and loved by them. And she is tall. And she is with the older kids in ballet.

Those are the things she was most interested in. She hardly looked at the WJ scores. UGH!

Anyway. I have to figure this thing out. She did let me know that she too is the proud parent of a child who was making change out of $5 in Kindergarten and she was very happy with the level of challenge he was receiving. Ugh Ugh!

I will re-read all your posts in the morning! We have in-laws in from Vegas and it's been CRAZY around here!

also...onthegomom...YES! I will be careful how much I push the teacher. I would rather her not learn anything than to feel like she is hated everyday. First things first...

I would be very happy with the differentiation IF they do it. So, with a little support from this forum, I will actually "drop the skip" for now, see her her cmt comes back in July (CT ST Mastery Test) and try to meet with her teacher in the beginning of the year. They really did make it sound like a dream school. I just have a hard time accepting this because I have been told this so many times in the past!

This is actually good news. Let's say, for the moment, that the IQ scores come back showing a nice bright girl who has plenty of company at grade level - well then in that case the IQ result won't be helpful in getting a subject acceleration, but might be helpful chosing the right path.

But she didn't say "No - IQ tests never help!" So I think she is signalling that they are open to looking at the IQ test.

It might be good to try asking 'Are there any testers around here who are particularly good at explaining to parents what all those numbers mean?'

because you would like to ask: 'Are there any testers around here that you would believe if the results came back unusually high?'

Love and More Love,
Grinity

This is an excellent idea. A friend of mine used this approach:
Write down and circulate all the good ideas,
pretend you didn't hear the bad ideas and keep going higher up the chain of command until you get what your child needs.

BTW - it seems to me that what your child needs right now isn't nescessarily a 'math subject acceleration' but perhaps a whole grade skip (the kids were acting up in PE for Pete's Sake!) but surely a WISC IV, either from the school or privately.


I dont' know why you would put up with your DD being given a 5th grade math book all by herself in the 4th grade room. Would they let you partial homeschool her and do the math at home with you? If not, then why would they be willing for her to be by herself with no peers and barely a teacher in the 4th grade math room?


Here's a stragagy you might find helpful. It's the
1-2-3:
1: smile and give lots of postive body language
2: Act like something terrific is happening - 'so you know what it's like to have a child who doesn't learn in one subject in school!'
3: Add the twist, "I'm so glad that you son was able to be challenged overall and things turned out well for him. Can you imagine if all of his school interactions were like that, in every subject, every single year? It's so great when the other kids catch up, just a matter of waiting, but can you imagine what it would have been like for your son if the other kids never caught up?"

or "It's great that kids from this school have gone to Harvard. But even amoung kids who have the ability to go to Harvard, there is a tremendous diversity of what the child needs at any particular stage. I'm really glad that the child was able to be successful through out their years, and go to Harvard, but I know other children who were just as smart but decided that it was better to fit in and pretend to be just like everyone else than to go to Harvard. And I know kids who just gave up on school and did poorly, even though they were smart enough to go to a school like Harvard. I am concerned that my daughter might be on a different path, and I believe that (insert intervention X here) might really make a key difference.

Then you follow up with:Thanks so much for your time and sharing so many stories with me, and I can see that you are very interested in helping my child grow and develop. I feel that without an IQ test such as the WISC that we do not have all the tools availible to build a good future for my DD, so I will be contacting the Principle to request a WISC test as the next step.

That way you haven't burned any bridges with VP, and can move onto the P, asking for 'more data.' I would email it to both and yourself to save a copy, and print it out and snail mail to both and keep on copy for your 'timeline.'

Your daughter might well be able to recieve proper Math instruction in the regular classroom with the very good teacher. But you really need to be able to relax and say 'she is one amoung several similars' or 'no, she has special educational needs, and need interventions that haven't been tried before.' At this point you just don't know as much as you need to know.

If it helps, I see WJ as a measure of where she is now, and WISC as more of a 'crystal ball' to see how different she is in her thinking from her peers. As you know, there is no such thing as a crystal ball, which explains why all these tests don't always provide all the answers, but, very often, they really help everyone understand that child that is in front of them.

And if that doesn't work, sit her down for an SAT and start waving those scores around! When my son was in 4th grade, I happened to mention that I was planning for him to thak the SAT in 7th grade. My very lovely elementary school principle almost fainted! I was sad that she hadn't even heard of the talent search programs. I think that so often the gifted parents and even excellent school folks are just living to different worlds.

Smiles,
Grinity

OMG! Did her really take the SAT in 7th grade? I HAVE to hear THAT story!

I seriously might need to copy your paragraphs word for word!
I get so frazzled around the administration! I am not the advanced person who needs a challenge! I'm just a regular gal! My husband's IQ is about 153...Ugh! lol!

I didn't sign up for this...and all of you guys who say that even if the IQ test shows ME that I need to keep pushing, then it would be worth the money...

I am flip flopping so much. I'm gunna call around and see what they cost. Why is everyone taking the WISC and not the SB?

Since I don't this the school is going to tell me which they like better...I may have to chose myself.

I DID find out today, while I was at the (free) town beach, that a mom got her pre-schooler (pre-school at the elementary school) to attend 1st grade for reading. So it HAS and can be done! But the teacher gave the recommendation. Mine don't seem to be, although they aren't saying they won't. I did inform her current teacher of what I was requestion for next year and said.."I assume a teacher recommendation helps." No response.

So, thanx so much for all your advice!
Hopefully I will be posting soon, that my daughter scored and 125 on her IQ test and should be fine working in the 4th grade classroom...but why do I doubt this?

My dd12 took the SAT in both 6th and 7th grade and the ACT in 8th. She was 10 the first time she took the SAT due to a grade skip. She's not one of those way, way out there kids. I wasn't aware that it was that common either until we started with the talent search testing in 4th at the school's suggestion as part of the grade skip eval. Taking college admission tests early no longer looks odd to me either !

kcab...u r in CT too?

I asked for a PPT and was denied, but it was by the secretary. Hmm. Still and IQ test seems to be the next step. Did I say algebra was offered in 6th? It's pre algebra....they have three math groups. Regular (Everyday Math), Accelerated Math, or pre-algebra....and then in 7th grade, Reg. Math, Pre alegbra or algebra. Pre algebra is usually taught in 8th grade normally for the reg students. The VP thought that a student that they have in 6th grade now is in geometry. She was a bit confusing though and wasn't sure of the details. I just wonder how a child who was not allowed to skip in 4th or 5th, and stayed with his regular grade, was able to skip pre algebra and algebra.

Questions I tried to ask while talking with the VP, but she quickly changed the subject and I'm not "quick enough" to know what's going on until after!

I wonder if you are near me in CT. I asked for a "placement exam" to be given and she said they don't have them.

Thanx for your comments...I love hearing what other people are doing and it's giving me the power to push on. I would have quit by now if it wasn't for this forum.

One needs more credentials to administer the SB, so fewer folks give it. All the flip flopping is how we all started - and part of the role of the tester is to be a reliable helper to help us manage that flip flop feeling.
Get a meeting with the Principle, a 'here's where we've been and here's my concern' meeting - and ask this question. They may not answer, or they may volunteer the school to do it, or they might answer. Keep hammering home the social - emotional card and that you want what is best for your child - and that some children have very unusual needs.
Next time you will be more direct. A heartfelt: "Can you help get my daughter's educational and social needs met by writing a letter of recommendation?" is what is needed. No 'hinting' - ok? Aim to ask for 'exactly' what you would like, and use the body language and tone of voice to sent the 'I'm very nice' message. The fact that you've listened calmly to the other person's message should help there too.

Best Wishes,
Grinity
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We are also on the shore...kcab! lol! WOW! And this being our first year in the town DOES make it hard to figure out what is going on!