Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Just had first meeting with princ about sub accel

Oh, my. I'm glad that is over with. She met with me for an hour and a half. I had WJ III scores and report cards that all said she was advanced in all areas. I brought her alphabetizing homework from this week in which she did as a mirror image. I brought her math sample of division, multiplication, fractions and such from first grade and explained to her that they have not even learned these yet in third grade, this year.

SHE SAID...They have NEVER had a child in 4th grade skip to 5th. EVER! Not even the kids who go to Havard! (Sorry, not impressed) They have one boy who is in 6th grade this year doing 8th grade math (again, not impressed) AND he was NOT skipped in 4th grade. You have to wait until 6th grade to get ability grouped.

This same boy reports being challenged the whole time.

They assess the kids constantly. They group them in class on what they know and move them on from there.

We left it at "If my daughter taked the 4th grade end of year assesment at the beginning of the year with the others, and she requires the 5th grade math book, the teacher will give it to her.

Well, that sounds good.
Am I being sweet-talked?
Help!
I have been through this and DIFFERENTIATION DOES NOT WORK!

She assures me that, in her school, it does. She sympathized with what we were going through in third grade - in her same school system and thinks that things should be being handled differently.

She gave me some questions to ask the teachers...like, since my child has mastered this concept, when will you introduce the next one to her?

Very pointed questions, rather than saying just "my daughter needs more challenging work."

So there you have it...

What do you think? Is the wool being pulled over my eyes?

I asked if an IQ result would be helpful and she couldn't say for sure.

Maybe I should just go ahead and get one just to see.
She seemed unimpressed with the overall WJ III results of 99.6% and didn't comment on them.

She says, she will place her with a special teacher who will be able to challenge her, the same one this other boy had. AND to meet with him the first week of school to discuss 5th grade. Why do I feel like we just went backwards?

I love that I can write all this down. It helps me process. Any advice or feedback would be much appreciated!
Thanx!

Hi there.

I can really sympathize, it can be so hard to advocate. Give yourself credit for getting in there and pushing.

Just a couple thoughts - the principal should make sure the teacher is challenging your child - it should not be your job to challenge the teacher and force her(him) to differentiate appropriately.

It isn't always a case of them "sweet talking" you, they just have different priorities and beliefs.

How big is this district, can you go over the Principal's head to an asst. superintendent or a curriculum specialist (that is how we got our DS's subject acceleration to happen).

Have you had her do the SCAT test. I find that to be very useful (more than the IQ test). It helps a lot when you can show a principal that your child is scoring in the 90% compared to children 2-3 years ahead.

Can you advocate for online math at school, does your state allow partial homeschooling (where you just pull her for the one subject)?

If it makes you feel any better, our first meeting went very similar to this, but our son is now accelerated 2 years in math. It took about 8 months, but it happened.

I would start with SCAT. Based the SCAT results I might go for a full IQ test (but it may not make a difference). I would figure out if any other elementary school in the district has any child subject accelerated (if you don't already know) - community online message boards can be handy for that. I would get as much information out of the parents of that 6th grade boy as possible (I doubt they think he was adequately challenged ;0 ), including test scores if they happen to have them and are willing to share. I would def. find out if the district/state has a written acceleration policy. If it is small district I would start making friends with board of ed members.

Let us know what you find out, there are lots of ways to approach this, and it depends a lot of how much energy you have to get what you want, what you find out, the district (of course), test scores, and a whole batch of other things.

I haven't been in your position (yet), but thought you'd like to know that I have read that if you request an IEP for your child, the school has to do it. It's usually used for kids who are struggling to keep up with their grade level, but not only for that reason. It was mentioned that if you use the "magic" words, "My child's educational needs aren't being met." when you request the IEP, it tends to get their attention.

Is the OP's child disabled? That's a threshold question before being entitled to an IEP. Even if the answer is "yes", it is by no means clear that a disabled child who is advanced in all areas would be entitled to acceleration, etc., despite the entitlement to an "appropriate" education. (Of course if the school goes for it, so much the better; the Lillie/Felton opinion letter referenced by this page could help. I'm just sayin'.)

Just a few quick thoughts.

You should be proud of yourself for getting the ball rolling and for making the principal aware of your DD. It's a big first step!

An IQ test, whether accepted by the school or not, can be helpful because it can show that your DD is not only academically advanced (which your current data shows) but that she is also much more likely to learn at a faster pace than her peers. In our SD this in an invaluable part because they feel that a child can be academically ahead, but unless they learn at a very fast pace, could be put into a situation in which they can not keep pace if they skip. Plus, it can give you confidence in your advocacy.

I would write a letter (not an e-mail; and make a copy for your records) to the principal restating what you believe you talked about in your meeting and outlining any checkpoints that you established for determining whether her next year in school is going successfully. On that note, I would ask that you meet to reassess how things are going several weeks into the school year.

Also, I would request two other things. One, that they set up a meeting now between you and the teacher that the principal is saying your daughter will have next year. And two, an IQ test to determine your DD's general abilities. Like the PP said, if you request this in writing, I believe they must honor your request to at least test.

This whole advocacy thing is usually a long and ongoing process, so congrats on starting the conversation.

Is there some federal law granting the right to IQ testing, or are you basing that upon a law of the OP's state? Eager to learn here.

I have no idea who the boy is. All children in our district attend the same elementary school. k-3...then switch to the middle school 4-8. So no child in the district has ever been accelerated before 6th grade. So I told her that no child in my daughter's Montessori Kindergarted had ever been accelerated to 1st grade for writing, but she was and it was their idea!

Don't know what a SCAT test is. I will look it up. The only test she has is the Woodcock Johnson Acheivement test.

The woman I spoke with was actually the Vice-Pricipal of 4th and 5th grade, so I could go to the Pricipal of 4-8 grade.

IF my daughter COULD in fact do the 5th grade book in her 4th grade class, I would be satisfied, but I don't know if this is really going to happen. At least she was placed with a great math teacher, according to the vp...

I requested a IEP...No luck..my daughter is not disabled in anyway, except by her teachers not letting her learn.

I said over and over again that differentiation DOES and DID not work for my child in third grade. AND I gave examples and the VP seemed to understand and agree that it did not. But she thinks her teachers at the Middle School are better. She let me know that they were working on a pull-out program for G/T and I told her I was not interested...she was like "I don't blame you." I kid you not! What the heck! She told me that she "hears me," cause her son could make change for a $5 in kindergarten...SOOOO? Aren't we talking about MY kid...who received an acheivement score of 99.6% overall on the WJ? What the heck...Now, I'm just venting...but it will be nice to have a record of what we talked about later, when I get sucked into the games and manipulations of the administration.

I was so serious about advancing her in math and after one meeting, I'm considering that she may be able to receive proper instruction in the reg classroom..I really need the name of that boy and I really need to talk to his parents...I will have to ask around, I guess...that seems to get me places...Like here! I ask around! It really works to network. I might go ahead a sping for another test too. She actually likes taking them and it gives her hope to be able to get harder work!

Do you have the option of school of choice where you live? We got to the point with dd10 this past year that we seriously considered changing schools and that did seem to prompt the school to make changes b/c they seemed to be more interested in bending their policies than losing her.

My dd10 is 2e so some of her circumstances will be different, of course. We were told that, if the child wasn't selected for subject acceleration in math in 3rd grade, that it wouldn't be happening at all ever. Dd10 is very erratic in terms of achievement but has very high IQ scores and 98th-99th+ achievement scores on individual tests. Her group tests are very inconsistent, though, and those are what they use for placement.

My dd was subject accelerated in math for the first time in 5th grade this past year and did pass the district tests for continuing to accelerate in middle school. Point being, just b/c they tell you they've never done it, other kids have been adequately challenged without it, she'll have opportunities later... this isn't about other people's kids. This is about what is (and isn't) working for your dd. Would you be willing to change schools? Do you think that you'd get further with this school if you were clear that you would?

I wouldn't be comfortable with what you've been told myself. It does sound like a stalling technique and I wouldn't be surprised if the outcome next year is more of what you've gotten thus far.

The situation in my neighborhood elementary school in a Boston suburb is similar to yours, but I have different advice. In many schools, one can safely make the assumption that schools will do NOTHING extra for gifted kids, just tracking in math starting in middle school and for ability grouping high school. They will not try to identify gifted students, because they might have to DO something with them. Thus, it becomes PARENTS' job to manage the education of their gifted child, and the first step is identification. Therefore it is a good idea to have kids take the SCAT and/or EXPLORE, even if the school ignores the results. (I'd suggest IQ testing too if it were not so expensive -- it depends on the parents' finances.) Using results from tests like the SCAT, EXPLORE, and SAT, parents can decide whether any of the following options make sense:

(1) afterschooling in an area of strength (for example using EPGY or Singapore Math or Life of Fred for a gifted math student)
(2) enrolling in private courses (in my area, for example, Math Club http://www.themathclub.com/ or Russian School of Math http://www.russianschool.com/ )
(3) enrolling in a private gifted school
(4) homeschooling
(5) entering college early

I view the public schools as just a resource and will try to avoid letting them limit the educational progress of my children.

Actually, I'm not positive about this. It's something I've heard a lot, among other parents IRL and here. In our case, when we requested it in writing (for DSnow12) it was done immediately. I recall hearing that a school has a certain amount of time (30 days) to respond to a request for an evaluation. Of course, "evaluation" could mean different things. At the very least, it might be something the OP should look into in her state and district.