Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy characteristics of a child with high verbal IQ

Hi

I am interested in the parallels between some of the symptoms of Aspergers compared to a non ASD child with a verbal reasoning IQ on the 98th centile. I am aware of the book by James Webb but nothing else. Is there any other research available that shows some of the characteristics that overlap? For example our son has some sensory issues, social interaction issues with his peers and obsessions etc etc.

We had thought that our son might have Aspergers as people have commented on his differences compared to other children every day since aged about 6 months. He progressed very early for example knowing his alphabet and speaking in sentences at 18 months but has achieved very little in 2 years at school as is still unable to write. His IQ was tested recently aged 6 and the conclusion was that he does not have Aspergers or any weaknesses. They have no concerns about his inability or refusal to write (we are in the UK).

We wanted to be able to explain that his characteristics can be explained by his IQ even if he is not Aspergers so all help would be very welcome.

Many thanks.

Have his IQ scores been reviewed for a non-verbal learning disability? My daugther (age 16) has a NVLD, and has always very strong verbally, especially in speaking. She has also been considered "borderline Aspergers" -- some psychologists she has seen for testing have commented that they think she is, others have said specifically that they don't think so. We have not had her formally tested for Aspergers, though. She had some of the same issues your son does; her handwriting is still terrible and slow. She hates loud noises and crowds, she didn't have close friends until about the age of 10, and definitely had obsessions.

So although he may not have Aspergers, it may not just be his high IQ that is causing his difficulties.

Thanks for this. The ed psych who tested my son said his score of 17 on comprehension showed he could not be aspergers so did not test for it. The comprehension was his highest score which I have been told is not the case for a child with aspergers. My sons lowest score was digit span of 8.

Do you know any research available that would help me understand the characteristics?

Thanks again

Ukmum, my DS8, who has Asperger's, is more gifted in math than in language arts, but he is extremely verbal and comprehends what he reads far above grade level. I believe the people who advised you about the comprehension score were misinformed. It is true that Asperger's can affect comprehension of fiction, and of others' perspectives more generally, but in very bright kids it does not always affect reading comprehension.

What tests did they use? An IQ test will not tell you whether someone is on the autism spectrum. Our practitioners prefer the ADOS for distinguishing spectrum from non-spectrum. Conner's rating scale and the Vineland scale of adaptive behavior are also useful.

I would be very concerned about the writing issues; I wouldn't let the school say they're no big deal, because they are. Our DS had these too, and it took a few years of fairly intensive private therapy to remediate them enough that he can do these tasks adequately.

To me, from your description, your DS has enough flags for Asperger's that I'd advise pursuing this further.

Best wishes,
DeeDee

I agree that you should pursue more information to rule in or out NVLD and Asperger's. Many consider NVLD on the autism spectrum.

Poor handwriting, sensory difficulties, social trouble are hallmarks of NVLD. Students with NVLD may be very verbal - but often go on and on, missing the point, stuck on the details. They are often early readers and are strong with factual concrete information, but may have difficulty with inference, the main idea and abstract concepts. Usually their VCI is 10 or more points higher than PRI on the WISC. Often they have relatively low WMI and or PSI. Many have attention difficulties and poor organizational skills. Many struggle with math, but may be very good with math facts and rote aspects of mathematics.

Here are some resources:
http://www.nldontheweb.org/nldadvancedreading/understandingnvld.html
http://www2.scholastic.com/browse/article.jsp?id=3892
http://www.nldline.com/

A full neuropsychological evaluation would help to get a better handle on your child's profile. In addition to the tests that Dee Dee listed, they would most likely test for executive functioning skills, verbal and visual memory, academic testing and visual perceptual skills.

Take care.

Thank you very much for all this very interesting information. I had not even heard of NVLD. Just to recap my son only had WISC IQ test done and the educational psychologist said that his behaviour in the test and the results especially the 17 in comprehension showed he was not Aspergers and therefore no further tests were conducted. I believe ADOS test is done here too but this was not done as his multi disciplinary team and school presumably all felt he did not have Aspergers. I am not disputing this as they may well be correct and his characteristics may all be attributable to his IQ but I was just trying to seek help for my son and had asked for Aspergers to be ruled out never thinking that it would be deemed that I was the one needing a psychiatrist.

I am unable to look into any other conditions as I believe I have been being investigated for MSBP since last August and have had the most horrendous time and am not sure of the status of the situation even now. I believe this diagnosis was based on my complaint towards a paediatrician and by profiling I think but I am not really sure. Here in the UK they keep the investigations secret so whilst I was aware of it going on it has been impossible to defend as no one would admit it. I am unable to access any private help now for any of my children as it could cause the NHS (state) to act. It is a total miscarriage of justice but unfortunately I have since spoken to several mothers who have been through similar here just because someone had complained about them to social services and they were never even aware of it until spotting it on medical notes so I guess it is not as unusual as I thought!

I was hoping that an understanding of how the characteristics of Aspergers could be confused with those of a child with a high verbal IQ might help to show that this mistake does not make me have MSBP. Therefore any advice on this would be greatly appreciated especially reputable research.

If I ever manage to clear my name through the courts if necessary and if my son is still unable to write and reluctant to go to school then I will look into your other suggestions but unfortunately I have to disprove these accusations before I can involve anyone else in helping my son.

Many thanks

Do you have all the subscores for the WISC test? If you post them out here, there are quite a few people with knowledge of the various patterns.

Thanks I had posted his results under the testing section of this forum. A copy is below

Hi
My son aged 6 had a WISC IV IQ test and the scaled scores were as follows:-

Verbal comprehension (VCI)
Similarities � 16
Vocab � 12
Comprehension � 17

Perceptual reasoning
Block design � 14
Picture concepts -12
Matrix reasoning -12

Working memory
Digit span � 8
Letter number sequencing � 11

Processing speed
Coding � 10
Symbol search - 10

Due to the disparity of results there was no overall IQ score but the VCI was 130. Hope it is OK to post here as we are in England and the test was done by the NHS. Their overall conclusion was that he does not have a deficit in any area and even his lowest score of 8 on the digit span is �within an average level�.

Am I correct that a score of 8 is on the 25th centile and that anything between the 25th and 75th centile is average in the UK?

There were no recommendations for school to alter their approach based on these results. We advised the educational psychologist that we have simplified the way we give instructions at home which has been successful for us but she did not appear to understand why we would do this and advised that he does not have any difficulties with auditory processing. Our reasoning is that we tend to talk to him at a level of his comprehension (several years ahead of his age) but his ability to follow our instruction is worse than his 3 year old brother which we felt might be due to his short term auditory memory.

If he were happy at school we would not be concerned about recommendations for them but unfortunately he is very frustrated by his work, often angry at playtimes and reluctant to go to school. He is not achieving anything much at school from the little we know for example he gets his maths wrong as he reverses his numbers. He refuses to write and is unable to form his letters correctly and says he is always the last to finish any task. He has told his teacher he does not need to learn to write. However at home he is interested in everything, constantly questioning and discussing things and spends most of his time reading highly technical books on space or science although he will on occasion read fiction too such as Roald Dahl.

All advice on this IQ result and any suitable recommendations for school based on these scores are welcome or for us to help our son.

Many thanks

I can't believe that the psychologist could say that the score disparities made an FSIQ invalid in one breath and in the next breath say that there are no deficits. There are, at the very least, relative deficits, which may be very frustrating for your child.

You may wish to inquire about dyspraxia; my son has had great difficulties with coordination and has greatly benefitted from occupational therapy. I understand that the research in the UK is more advanced on dyspraxia than it is here in the US.

I agree dyspraxia and/or Asperger's sound like possibilities, but the OP says she has reason to think she's under investigation for MSBP. With that as a serious concern I frankly think she should stay out of trying to get anything diagnosed, and should stick to repeatedly reminding the school that her son needs to learn to write, and asking what they're doing about that and what she can do to support them. If there is a diagnosable problem that really needs to be diagnosed, they should get there eventually. It's not ideal, but ukmum, your son needs a mother who's not under attack more than he needs the perfect diagnosis and therapy.

As a start, here are a few suggestions for supporting writing. Think about whether he sees you writing! In our household an issue is that he probably does more handwriting in a week than either parent, given how computer-oriented our lives are these days. We haven't managed to "fix" this but at least being aware of the disparity helps. Handwrite little notes to him. Handwrite a shopping list and get him to help - maybe bribe him by promising to buy a small thing he likes if he writes it on the shopping list. Institute a 5 minute timed handwriting practice, daily or just at the weekend, in which you e.g. challenge him to see how many times he can write "cat" neatly. Give him sticky labels and some old takeaway boxes or similar and let him make labelled boxes for his toys. Basically take advantage of any occasion when he might see some advantage in writing, even if it's only a few letters at a time. Try different kinds of pencil and pen - maybe try those big triangular pencil grips, which make pencils more comfortable for some children, or try a thick marker pen.