Okay-- so I don't know WHY, exactly, Precalc now includes some topics that weren't addressed previously until calculus (you know, when you NEEDED them) and at this point it really doesn't matter that much.

My DD's Precalc class has no instruction. It uses a crappy textbook (Glencoe's Advanced Mathematical Concepts: Precalculus with Applications).

I have provided her with Lial and Hornsby's Precalculus, which is definitely a more thorough and better-written text.

The problem is that she is truly floundering with material that she has NEVER seen before, and for which the course itself seems to think that she should memorize a particular algorithm (apparently)-- but then barely demonstrates it at all, and provides no practice.

Only assessments.

The assessment level clearly (I've looked at them, recall)-- requires MASTERY of the material, including some that hasn't been presented at all.

The teacher is AWOL, basically-- no help there.

Khan was somewhat helpful here, but the way that the course has presented Parametric functions and polar coordinate systems is so-- so-- well, it's so stupidly backwards and over-simplified that DD is having a LOT of trouble figuring out WHY they are using particular approaches.

Honestly, geometry preparation (now) isn't sufficient to adequately lay a foundation for trig at this level. But it's not like we can go back and completely remediate THAT at this point, even if we wanted to. So we're going to be patching things as she goes.

HELP.

I need some additional resources for:

Trig identities
Parametric Equations
(DD knows vectors inside and out after Physics)
Conics and analytic geometry
Polar Coordinates
Complex Numbers


Probably I'm also going to need this for:

combinatorics
exponentials (well, maybe not-- I think this stuff is intuitive to her)


Anyone know of anything where DD can actually get some practice with feedback? She's not learning it thoroughly enough just from reading and watching video. She's getting super discouraged, and the more so because this grade is going onto a college transcript, being a dual-enrollment class.

Is there a Schaum's outline with this kind of thing in it??

There are Schaum's outlines for trigonometry and precalculus.

You may want to look at Brown's Advanced Math. It derives a lot of the identities, and has a lot in the way of explanation.

Schoolyourself.org is a work in progress that will eventually cover all these topics. It is interactive web instruction that I think takes an intriguing approach. Unfortunately, they don't have all the topics you need up yet, but others may be interested in the math topics they do have: algebra, geometry, etc.

You could try ALEKS (http://www.aleks.com/), it is an online computer program that will gives immediate feedback, and instruction. It is used in colleges & universities as supplemental material. I can't tell if the pre-calculus program included all of the above topics. One of the good things about ALEKS is that it test the student for what he or she knows, doesn't endlessly repeat material the student already knows, and it gives immediate feedback. I also know extensive work has gone to make sure this program meets (and exceeds) content standards. On the other hand while it does fine teaching the basic material, it doesn't really teach the advanced critical thinking. Every time I mention ALEKS I feel I should disclose that I personally know the original designers of this system.

I was just looking at the AoPS books for my son, and perhaps their pre-calculus book would have details of this material. But I can't recommend them as all I've seen so far in the web site. These books seems to be more directed at gifted students.

I am a bit astonished that a pre-calculus class includes all these topics. Things sure have changed since I went to H.S. and university. I did my Senior Project in University on Polar Coordinates and I don't think I had seem much more than a glance at them before that year.

Thanks-- found a used copy in a neighboring state for just about $5. It should be here next week.

Similarly, a Schaum's outline for Precalc, which I hope will be helpful. Naturally, the sections on polar coordinates and conics aren't preview pages on Amazon, so I have no real way of knowing at the moment. Grr.



The mismatch between the instructional and resource material and the level of the assessments is nothing short of astonishing to me, in all seriousness.

First quiz in this unit made me go--

Which was better than DD's response, which was more along the lines of

I am a bit astonished that a pre-calculus class includes all these topics.


You and me both.

I recall seeing complex numbers in high school, all right-- but not really WORKING with them in polar coordinate systems until Physics, P-Chem, and DiffEQ. Certainly I first encountered polar coordinate systems in college material relating to analytic geometry. Not in this class, which is effectively the same material as is (theoretically) covered in MTH 112.

Not being there yet, I am just going to suggest a few things not yet mentioned in here - feel free to gently point out the errors etc so I can remember for when our turn comes

Have you tried the Life of Fred Pre-Calc/Calc and Trig/Geometry books?
Is there not an online EPGY course for this perhaps?

This is where I think trying to plan an education for our children who we piece bits and pieces together from different sources due to lack of anything that truly fits their needs gets really challenging. My first thought when I read the list of topics was that my math classes in high school covered almost *all* of them before my AP Calculus class in high school. That doesn't mean I had a better or more thorough math curriculum - it just means they were on our list of things that needed to be covered before you got to Calculus. Curriculum simply varies so much from learning institution to learning institution, even in "classic" things that would seemingly be a straightforward progression such as math.

I don't know if it's something your dd would want to use as an approach to filling in the gaps, but if she's not opposed to working with a tutor, that's an option. I think you're in a college town, right Howler? If you can find a college math major who enjoys tutoring that might be one way to go which would allow you to quickly cover what's missing.

Good luck with it all -

polarbear

At some colleges one's score on the SAT Mathematics Level 2 Subject Test is used for placement, with a high-enough score indicating readiness for calculus. Prep books for this test could be useful, and it may be worth taking this test before college even if the schools you are applying to don't require it.

Off topic, but could you tell me what you don't like about the Glencoe text?

Thanks!

Thanks, everyone. This is really a helpful array of ideas.

Bostonian, John Chung's SATII math prep book is particularly helpful on the topics above. Many are not, but that one is. (It's also way beyond the usual coverage for SAT II prep books, just so that everyone knows that.)

It's procedure-heavy without much in the way of WHY or deductive reasoning and careful conceptual building, if that makes sense. DD has also found a hefty sprinkling of errors, including examples that are mis-printed or flatly INCOMPLETE-- cutting off at the bottom of the page so that only the first half of them are shown.

There's "this is what you do with problems that look like this"
and "this is what you do with problems that look like that instead."

But very little "this is the law of cosines, this is where it comes from, and here's what it applies to and why..."

I probably shouldn't compare to my high school experience, it was a bit patchy and usual. I moved cross country between my sophmore & junior year of H.S. And then decided to graduate a year early and go to university at 17. I remember more of the jokes my Algebra II teacher told in class than what actual material was covered. But since I have a Math BA I must have learned something. I then didn't take BC Calc because I went straight to university. And once I got there managed to test straight into the second quarter of College Calculus. It's still possible I missed a few topics.

I'm having my DD run through the math placement practice tool at the uni that she's going to be attending in the fall.

As long as she places into Calc 251, we don't really care HOW she does it, I think.

Obviously, we'll confirm, but this class is a mess, and in terms of high school rank, it can only harm her weighted GPA... and she certainly doesn't need the credits to graduate, since she's already WAY over the number of Carnegie units that she needs as of the end of LAST term, and is a full year over the math requirements too.

So we're looking at either dropping it entirely for independent study (which DD would like to do-- she's interested in LEARNING the material, but the course is a mess and it's serving as more of an unwelcome distraction and perfectionism trigger than anything else right now), or barring that, seeing if she can get a seat in the local JC's MTH112, or EPGY.

Yes, it'll cost us more $$ to do that, but at this point I simply do not care.

I'll be teaching precalc to DS13 over the summer to compensate for the class he's taking now. His teacher returned after being out for 6 weeks on Monday and was out again on Tuesday. Don't think I lack sympathy for his teacher; I'm frustrated with the subs. As I reported on another thread, they're nothing but babysitters. No teaching occurs when the regular teacher isn't there.

He is forbidden from taking calculus at the high school next year (I told him he can take AP Statistics instead). He's not happy about this idea, but I told him it's too bad. He can take it at the community college in 2015.

Okay, well, she scored a handy 37/40 on the practice placement test, and anything over a 33 is theoretically placement into differential calculus.

So now, we decide whether it might be worth it to have her do independent study and take the SAT II as backup.

We always kind of count on needing ADDITIONAL documentation because of her age. Not fair, but there it is.

So simply placing that well probably isn't enough. Not sure what else we can try, though-- local CC has no seats for MTH 112. Leaving EPGY. Which is again self-paced, and not interactive with a teacher... which has been the problem thus far this year in math to begin with.

Grr.

kcab, this is the same reason that WE forbade DD from taking calculus.

This was confirmed last night by DD's friend/boyfriend/whatever-he-is... who IS taking calculus (but hasn't taken precalc, and therefore she knew a lot more than he did about the polar coordinate plane and trig identities). Same "teacher" for all three classes-- AP stats, AP calc, and Precalc.

NO teaching for any of them, and really inadequate lesson support. Both of them are feeling it.




Has anyone here got direct experience with EPGY precalc?

Remind me, HK, was there a reason your DD didn't want to do AOPS? Their next precalculus starts April 15th, fwiw - an option would be to get the book and self study, then use the class for challenge and interaction?

It's more about the accreditation than anything else. Honestly, I'm looking for the lowest stress method for her to get adequate documentation to allow for placement into differential calculus next fall.

Trig is the pre-req, and while she scores well enough on placement tests that they should permit it (and I know it would be fine) they might not permit it based upon her AGE.

KWIM?

Forbidden by me. The quality of the textbooks and instruction will be too low.

And does " The Art of Problem Solving Online School is accredited by the Western Association of Schools and Colleges." not cut it, or did you not know about that (it's recent, I think)?

I'm going to have her run that past advising at Uni and see.

EPGY, we strongly suspect WOULD be sufficient.

Not sure of the formatting of AoPS for DD-- I mean, the class structure, she'd be familiar enough with, but I mean the pedagogical approach may be so alien as to cause her some stress initially.

Remember, this is a kid that has (mostly) been "processed" by conventional math teaching as it's now known in secondary ed in the US.

{sigh}

Well, she just talked to the Uni-- and they basically said "any way that you think you've met the prereqs is fine with us-- sounds like your score on the placement tool amply supports a placement in precalc. Knock yourself out, man."

:happydance!:



drop-drop-drop that turkey, kiddo.

(As she was dialing the school counselor, she let loose with a primal, Mel Gibson scream; "Freeeeeeeeeeedom!!!" Which should tell you something about this class, because she is ENJOYING the material otherwise.)

I had a feeling you'd say this.

My son's school just adopted the Glencoe book after a year with an IB math text (which was truly the most horrible math book I've ever dealt with). The books they use for Algebra I and II and geometry are exactly as you're describing the Glencoe book to be--procedural with zero concept development. Which is why I'm homeschooling math this year and will be for the foreseeable future. It's a small school with one math teacher for high school, and she just doesn't get it.

IME, very few schools get it, and the textbooks just make that problem worse. My kids' school uses Holt-Rinehart starting in pre-algebra, and they're as you and HK described. The Sadlier-Oxoford series for K-6 is pretty much completely driven by recipes.

Meanwhile, two other local schools use Saxon Math. You can get many of those books free online as PDFs. I looked at the pre-algebra book. It has the same problem, and is compounded by an ADD approach in the book: there were umpteen types of problems with no cohesion between them.

I even let this teacher borrow my copy of Lial's Precalculus. She kept it so long that I ended up buying another copy. So it's not like she never had an opportunity to see a decent precalculus book.

After struggling with this teacher through three classes and two kids, I found out that she did Kumon worksheets for fun as a child. Makes perfect sense.

I figure that we can wade through a combination of Lial and Brown using the lighting provided by the burning of the Glencoe text.

Heaven knows that's its best hope for providing illumination of any sort.

That is great news!! I was going to support the idea of her taking the AP Math II test, since I know that many universities uses scores on it for placement. But i guess it's not necessary.

Val, what textbook will you use?

La Texican! You're back! I missed you.

I'm going to use Brown's Advanced Math (2002 edition).

I second that one-- having seen parts of the trig in it, we've got it on order. We have also found that the Lial text (which was recommended here and is used by EPGY's course) is another good one.

Just peeking in, stocking up a library because I'm homeschooling now. Congrats on your daughter starting college this fall HK. I hope she has the best time in the world!

Thanks! It's really great to see you, La Tex!

Thanks.