Please help! Any advice is welcome!

We believe our 4-yr. old son may be exceptionally gifted, very likely between Ruf's Level Four and Five.

He is enrolled in his second year of Pre-K at a Montessori school, which we chose because it seemed to be the only one in our city capable of keeping him interested. He has done what most, if not all, of your children probably have experienced. He was reading at two, and colors/shapes/numbers were mastered at age one. He is very social, has a huge and appropriate vocabulary, etc. He is what anyone would consider a charming and bright child. We probably should have listened when several people assured us he was "different."

Now, after a conference with his teacher today, I believe the behavior problems are beginning. He seems uninterested, easily distracted, doesn't want to do something because it's "too hard" (activities which should be very easy for him), and his behavior is to the point that it may become a significant disruption for the other children. Just as Ruf's article describes, that "spark" seems to be missing from school-related experiences.

His teacher has even suggested that we pay close attention to the fact that he "plays" or interacts with his friends only about 50 percent of the time, and the other 50 percent chooses to play alone. She is almost suggestive that his early reading skills, happiness in playing alone, lack of focus, or extensive, but temporary, focus on certain topics could be related to a disorder, albeit very mild, such as Asberger's.

I've been reading everything I can tonight about Asberger's and have quickly concluded this is NOT what we are dealing with.

Rather, I'm going back in my mind to our first visit with our local family doctor, for whom I have a lot of respect, who tried to convince me over a year or two ago that my son is a "genius." I also have an acquaintance who did the same, after almost obsessing over my two year old at a party. She told me that she had never met another child like her own until she met my son. (Her son is now 26. He finished college at 16, has an incredibly high IQ, etc. You can get the picture.) She was fascinated, and called me the next day, after staying up all night trying to get me some names of who to contact in our area.

I sort of believed them, but just thought that we have a "bright" child. The teacher at our Montessori school has played a large part in this - I do not feel that she believes me when I tell her that Jonathan may be gifted at this level. I am quite reserved with her when we discuss this, because I don't want to come across as a "bragging" parent. But I just don't get the feeling that she believes me. Which almost seems unfair on my part, because she is an intelligent, loving, and interested teacher. She told me she tries to get Jonathan interested in more challenging activities. Even then, something just isn't clicking. Now I'm wondering...the whole concept of Montessori is for children to stay in the same class/same teacher for 3 years. Is it possible he's already bored with the same "routines," even though he is doing different work every day? Perhaps this is just the opposite of what he needs? Any input/opinions about Montessori are welcome.

Today has really changed my perception of what these two were trying to tell us.

I have been soaking up everything I can from this website, and I have been reading as much as I can from other sources you have links to. My son, Jonathan, fits the descriptions quite well. It is all starting to make sense now. Perhaps these two people who have met Jonathan are correct. It is just all coming together now. I almost got chills when I read the Levels described in Ruf's article. My son just had a conversation with me today about the tooth fairy (he was showing me a wiggly tooth). It was clear to me that he was questioning her existence. "Mommy, I don't think that a tooth fairy really lives on this earth." I struggled with how to respond. I have a desires to offer a "normal" four-year old world response,yet I knew what he was trying to tell me. He also seemed rather perplexed all through the holiday season about how Santa actually gets into our house, where he lives, and just how the whole thing works. Again, it was clear to me, and somewhat uncomfortable, because I wasn't sure how to respond, that he was questioning whether or not Santa was real. He was 3 at the time. He is now 4. It never even dawned on me that even these types of conversations would point to giftedness. He fits almost every descriptor she lists in Level Four.

Can you tell I'm sort of freaking out here?!!

I'm just realizing what may potentially lie ahead. I'm also thinking that I need to act quickly, so that I can get him plugged in to an appropriate program, whether it is home schooling or something else. My maternal instincts have been telling me since he went back to school in late August that something is amiss. I just haven't been able to put my finger on it. He is a happy, confident, joyful child at home. But I can tell when I pick him up from school that something just isn't quite right. It's not like there have been any specific, significant events/outbursts/behaviors. He still goes about his day and participates. He just doesn't seem interested at all anymore, and needs a lot of encouragement to do his "works." I can just tell that he is not happy or stressed or frustrated. Or maybe just BORED. And then reading Ruf's articles just absolutely has changed my entire perception of what is happening in his little mind. I suddenly feel like I need to pull him out of the Montessori school and begin home schooling. I have felt this for the past two months, but I haven't been able to explain it. Just instinct, I suppose. He is a happy, well adjusted child. But he is unhappy at school. It hasn't made sense until now.Sorry. I know I'm rambling. I'm just trying to process it all.

What do I do next?!!

I'm already thinking I should definitely have him tested. Where do I begin? Who can I trust? Which tests are valid at this age? That's why we didn't have him tested two years ago-everything I read suggested that it was too early. Now I almost feel panicked that we have this small window to keep him engaged in the desire to continue learning. My instant reaction is to start the process to try and skip kindergarten and get him into first grade. I've heard that our local school, which consistently receives exemplary ratings, has a good "gifted" program. Who knows if that is really true or not.

I'm just feeling completely overwhelmed, and realizing that my "bright" child is much more than "bright." And I don't want to fail him.

I respectfully request any sound advice you'd like to offer. I'm so thankful for the information I've already discovered on this site.

Thank you in advance,
Allison (Jonathan's mom)

Hi Allison,
Welcome. You are in the right place.

From your description, it appears that your child may be profoundly gifted. I recommend applying to the Young Scholar Program http://www.ditdservices.org/Articles.aspx?ArticleID=147&NavID=0_0. If you chose to get your child tested, make sure that you use a test accepted by the Young Scholar Program. If you want more information on testing see Hoagies Gifted website http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/why_test.htm. If you have never been to Hoagies you may want to start at the Gifted 101 tab.

Be cautious what type of feedback you accept from people who are not familar with highly gifted children. These children often exhibit certain behavior as a defense mechanism that people will interpret as a variety of problems. It is not uncommon for people put a label of autism or ADD on gifted kids when the real problem is that they are in an inappropriate intellectual and social environment.

My personal experience came when my daughter was in preschool. I knew she was advanced for her age so I put her in a preschool that was teaching a kindergarten curriculum. She was so bored that she would lay on her back and spin around in circles. This was not a typical behavior for my child. She also had a difficult time interacting with the children in her class. I was extremely concerned that she would never have any friends. The next year I put her in a Spanish immersion program for kindergarten. She seemed like a different child. She was mentally stimulated and was sharing the experience of learning with her classmates. She is in 3rd grade now and has many friends, but it is still quite a job to keep her intellectually stimulated.

It will be an ongoing challenge for you as the parent of a highly gifted child to keep your child intellectually stimulated. Don't be surprised if you are accused of pushing your child when in reality you are simply trying to keep up. This is why it is important to find a support group. We have a great PG support group in my area. It is a tremendous help for the parents and the children benefit from having true intellectual peers. It is so important to have others with whom you can share the joys and trials of raising your child.

Texas Summer,

Thank you for your response! I cannot stop thinking about all of these issues today. Should I remove my child immediately from his school? Is home schooling best? Should we prepare to fight the public schools to skip kindergarten or just home school? And on and on...

"Be cautious what type of feedback you accept from people who are not familar with highly gifted children. These children often exhibit certain behavior as a defense mechanism that people will interpret as a variety of problems. It is not uncommon for people put a label of autism or ADD on gifted kids when the real problem is that they are in an inappropriate intellectual and social environment. "

It's nice to hear this affirmation. My family has been quite disappointed that this teacher would automatically start asking questions about red flags for Asberger's. She emphasized that she's not suggesting he has it, but that he does display a few "red flags." My SIL told me earlier today,"The fact that she even SAID Asberger's suggets to me that she's thinking in those terms." I love the way you used the term, "defense mechanism" for "behaviors" in school. What a perfect description. I just don't see any of these behaviors at home. Not at all.

I think it's also important that you have pointed out that he may not only be in an inappropriate intellectual setting, but also in an inappropriate social setting. My husband's family is just horrified (in the past) that I have considered home schooling for several years now. But for some reason, I have felt compelled to look into it. I think mothers have a beautiful ability to follow intuition, even if we have no explanation. His family believes that the "social stimulation" of school is of utmost importance. I've always been defensive about this topic, because I believe that's a bunch of hooey, basically. My point is, if Jonathan is surrounded by other children he doesn't talk to anyway, how can this be socially stimulating? He's probalby the most socially developed child in his class! It explains why he gets along so beautifully, and interacts so imaginatively, with children two or three years older than him.

How do I find out about local support groups? I am in the Central Texas area.

Also, how do I start the process for having him tested?

Thanks so much for your information.

Allison

Allison,
The schooling question always seems to come up and there are never any perfect answers. There rarely seems to be a perfect fit for highly gifted children. So much depends on you, your child, and the options available in your area. You often have to trust your instincts. That being said about 90% of all the PG children I know are homeschooled. Mine is one of the rare ones that attends public school. You will want to check your district policies to see what is required to skip kindergarten. If you are seriously considering this option, do your research now, it may require some paperwork to be completed before the end of the school year.

I sent you a private message with information about support groups and testing professionals.

Summer

You're so right! A gifted kid's true peers aren't likely to be found in a same-age classroom. And the more gifted the kid, the older the true peers are likely to be.

I read something at the start of our educational crisis this year that really reassured me that gifted kids don't HAVE to have the social "stimulation" (if you can even call it that!) of public school (Hoagies, maybe? Sorry, but I can't recall the source!). The gist was that the school years--and the primary school years in particular--are the only time in a person's whole life where people are grouped strictly by age. Imagine being refused service at the store for 40-year-olds because you aren't old enough yet. Or imagine selecting who to invite to a dinner party solely because of how old they are. Ridiculous, right? But we assume that because it's convenient for schools to group kids by age, it's somehow better for the kids. But the welfare of the kids isn't a factor in that grouping, and grouping by age certainly isn't in the best interest of gifted kids any more than grouping them by some other arbitrary method that has nothing to do with education...like height!

People also intimate that this age-based grouping is somehow natural and "how it's always been." That's not true either. Once upon a time, not so long ago, we had one-room schoolhouses. When a child finished one primer, s/he went on to the next. If said child finished the whole curriculum early, said child read independently or went back to work on the farm or in the family business. (Unschooling, anyone?)

These points really reassured me when we decided to pull our DS6 out of his public school 1st grade a mere 6 weeks into the school year. Making the choice to pull him out was scary! I never thought we'd home school. But, like you, I kept drifting back to it. And it was the absolute right thing for this year. DS got happy again immediately. He has also had significantly MORE time and energy to devote to friendships since he isn't frustrated and bored all day long.

Homeschooling certainly isn't the only option for an extremely gifted kid, but in my experience, it's a good option...assuming you have the patience and the interest to do it. And I think it's actually less time-consuming for me than public school and all the busy-work I was having to force DS to do. At least now the time I spend on DS's education is a lot more fun!

Basically, I agree with Texas Summer: weigh your child's needs in total and recognize that there's probably no perfect solution. Don't let that discourage you. Do the best you can at any given moment and adjust as necessary. You can homeschool one year and do something else the next; you don't have to commit to a specific philiosophy and follow it to the bitter end. This is practice, not theory! (Getting that advice from a friend and mentor was VERY freeing!) Take it one day at a time if you have to. Adapt.

Finally, realize that for gifted kids, positive social interactions usually come out of a positive intellectual situation. A child who is unhappy and frustrated is rarely viewed by other kids as a good person to befriend. But a child who is happy and confident is going to attract friendships.

How to decide what is best in your case?:

1) Do your research: talk to other parents, gather whatever info you can find on the attitudes toward GT accomodations of the principal and teachers in the school, find out what testing the school will accept (and the answer may be none but their own!),

2) Weigh how hard the fight will be for things like early entrance to K and other accomodations. Consider possible future effects: for example, someone on this forum was talking about her kids being considered ineligible for an advanced program later on in the school career if they were home schooled anytime along the way. If that's a valuable program, then you'd have to factor that into your choice,

3) Then decide if the rewards will be worth the fight.

In our case, we could have escalated our advocacy to the principal and asked to grade- or subject-advance DS or to switch teachers...but the school system is VERY down on grade-advancement or even subject-advancement, and changing first grade teachers wouldn't have guaranteed a better situation. The fact is that all the first grade classes were going to be learning letters and DS would have been bored in any of them. Plus, if we were refused accomodation (as we very probably would have been!), then we would have had to go back to the original insecure and defensive teacher after having gone over her head--not ideal! In the meantime, DS's behavior was getting worse. All the pain and suffering we'd have had to go through to make relatively small changes to the situation just didn't seem worthwhile, so we just removed him from the school.

Now that our educational emergency has passed, we're really enjoying home schooling. The freedom is liberating! My husband compares DS to a race car that had been gathering dust in our garage. Now that we're taking him out for a spin on a regular basis, it's amazing what he can do! Great fun!

None of this helps much with your pre-K situation. I will say that a kind and caring teacher is sometimes enough, since the kind and caring teachers usually want the kids to be happy and to learn. But if she just can't see how bright he is, then you probably have to do something. At least stronger advocacy. Sometimes you have to decide if you want to be "that mom" or if you want to let your child be "that kid."

One of my biggest regrets for my son's education before this year was that I didn't push his teachers at his Montessori preschool harder. He mostly languished there because he refused to jump through their hoops. They didn't recognize his abilities, and it wasn't until my husband pushed them at our Jan. conference--saying exactly what I had been saying for 4 months!--that they tried some new things with him and realized, Oh! Wow! This kid is really smart! The second half of the year, he blossomed. I should have just embraced my "that mom"-ness in that situation! Live and learn...

That's enough outta me! I hope my ramblings help you somehow!

Kriston-

What a powerful and positive message! Very well said. I've been homeschooling my PG kids for seven years now, and I heartily agree with you. Homeschooling has allowed my kids to blossom in unexpected ways. Even my son with Asperger's Syndrome was able to make social gains once he was not using all his energy just existing in the crowded classroom environment. My social butterfly has no shortage of pals, and my in-betweener (introverted, but without any autism) also does extremely well. Homeschoolers are usually much more flexible about playing with kids both older and younger, and I feel this is a far more genuine representation of "the real world" that we are often accused of sheilding our kids from.

As Kriston pointed out, a happy kid is going to find it easier to make friends. For most gifted children, happiness goes hand in hand with getting an appropriate intellectual challenge.

best wishes-

I agree with everything that has been said about homeschooling. I agree that if your kid is unhappy, then they will not be good friend material and that homeschooling could easily be the solution. I know and have known many happy, well-adjusted, delightful homeschooled children.

What I want to write here is really for the people who stumble on this board BEFORE their children have a problem and are worried that their highly gifted child will be unlikely to fit into the public school system. That is certainly a possibility but not for certain. Some of us have had great experiences with public schools. My son has thrived there; he has met and befriended kids that I certainly never would have run into in our social circles, people from all walks of life (most of the homeschoolers in our area are pretty homogeneous). He has run for office, given speeches and performed in front of 500+ kids; he has volunteered as a reading aid in the Kindergarten class and made friends with both the Kindergarteners and the other adult aids. He edited the school newspaper and helped in the lunch room; he is now friends with the lunch ladies. He is confident and self-assured and he makes friends wherever he goes. We know we have been very lucky. It would have been hard to replicate this breadth of experience with homeschooling; although I know that we could have exposed him to other cool things if we were not locked into a public school schedule.

We have run into some glitches along the way and I expected to run into trouble when we switched schools this year, which is why I found this board. And it has really helped me plan some strategies and make a smooth transition. Sometimes, though, when I see people talking about the problems they are having, I think how lucky I was to have NOT found this board until we were well settled in public school. When DS started K, already reading at 5-6th grade level, I thought there might be trouble, but I went in with an open mind. I hope that others will be able to do so as well. Yes, there may be trouble, but it is not for sure.

Allison,

I know some folks have said that their kids have actually done better in a less academic pre-school for a part day. My DS was in a great YMCA preschool when he was little. They had swimming lessons, lots of books, a few computers with educational games (which DS Loved because he could work at his own pace), lots of free-form art materials, story time, great field trips, dance lessons, tumbling lessons,and music lessons. when DS was bullied (a couple of the kids liked to take his blankie and make him cry), the teachers worked with the "bullies" but they also helped DS learn skills that would make him less of a target. I think we owe some of his confidence and social skills to these kind perceptive teachers.

I'm wondering if you could find something like this where you are and then try to meet his academic needs at home by answering his questions and exporing his interests with him informally.

Hi Allison,
((waving wildly))
Your Aim is True!

Isn't it an incredible experience when all the dancing "not-right-nesses" that have been buzzing around your head suddenly explode into a whole new way of looking at the world?

And then that you were able to find us! And then that your first responder was a Sister Texan!

So yes I can tell that you are freaking out, but it sure looks like it's "in a good way" to me!

I don't like the idea of leaving a kid in a situation were the teacher thinks that "there is something wrong with him" or where kids are supposed to interact with eachother 100% of the time. ((gagging sounds))

I don't know if you have to pull him this week, or just start keeping him home 2 days a week while you do the reasearch you need to do. Is this the kind of school that has an "older classroom" that you can try him in?

If you are going to try homeschooling "for now" I would recomend the "unschooling" books - John Holt, so that you can follow his lead.

You can set up a phone consult with Dr. Deb Ruf, and get a consultation that will help you decide when to go for formal testing. I have a whisper of an idea that if you are going to pull him and homeschool him for a while, it's better to wait 4-6 months before testing, because -
1) He will score so much better when he gets to learn at his own pace for a while, any unaccomidated school would be a large waste of time, while I have heard over and over again that kids tested after years of Montessori score lower than expected on their achievment tests. This doesn't mean that they aren't learning something else that IS vitally important, just that the environment seems to depress achievement test scores.

2) You will know him more completely as a learner - know what questions to ask, know if the testing situation is accuate for him.

Texas has lots of rules on the books for accelerations - please contact your state gifted association and get all the info you can and try for that early enterance. Observe the first and second grade classes at your local public school.

BTW - you didn't say what month of the year your DS4 was born in. Is he close to turning 5 and being able to apply for YSP? Is he a "Summer Baby" in a town where Redshirting is possible, so being given a "defacto" gradeskip?

Big Smiles - Open Arms - and if you are old enough to have seen the Movie version of "Farenhight 451"
((that amazing scene where the main character meets all the folks who have memorized the books))

Sorry about the spelling - or lack therof -
Trinity

Yes, ACS, I agree 100% that ruling any educational option out without careful consideration is foolish. Especially a free one!

For us, one of the benefits to the lousy school system in our area (!) is that there exists a large homeschooling community consisting of people from a diverse social, economic, and racial background and a diverse range of belief systems. If the group were homogeneous, I'm not sure it would have been such a good choice for us. But the homeschooling group we belong to is actually FAR more diverse than the lily-white and almost wholly middle class suburban classroom he was in at the start of the year.

And I should add that our public school kindergarten year was wonderful for DS6. I think that was due to two factors: 1) K was only a half-day class, so DS mainly got social time there and had time to work on his projects at home, and more importantly 2) a FANTASTIC teacher who was warm and caring and who was excited by DS's gifts rather than threatened or annoyed by them. I can't say enough about how important the teacher is for a gifted child! A good one can make an intolerable situation work beautifully; a bad one can make even the best accomodations fail miserably.

I think our ideal situation would be half-day public school and half-day homeschooling, since that would take the pressure off me--an introvert!--to find social situations for my introverted child. But our school is not known for being cooperative with such individuated solutions. We'll see...

Either way, best of luck to you, Allison!

To all:

Thank you! Thank you! I am so grateful for this group!

I have so many thoughts and ideas to explore at this point. I have already started calling about testing, and I have already left a message with the elementary school regarding grade skipping. I am just gathering some information at this point, and I am SO appreciate to all of you for your advice! More to come later...must feed the baby.

Keep it coming! I'm all ears!

In appreciation,
Allison

Hi!

Well, I have a few updates. It's late and I'm a bit sleepy so I will try to be as organized as I can with my thoughts.

First of all, some good news: our school district is open to grade skipping. I spoke with a counselor today who told me that their goal is to serve every child. At first, she stated that they would do a 4 to 6 week trial in kindergarten, and make the change to first grade if appropriate. I have to provide IQ testing and achievement testing scores. I explained that I did not feel it would be in his best interest to move him during the middle of the semester. I told her a bit more about him, including reading and writing at age two. I explained the current "behavior" issues, and my concerns about his current placement. I simply came out and asked if she would consider allowing him to start the year in first grade if I supplied test scores, and she agreed. She was eventually very nice and seems open to really helping us.

I also spoke with DS's current teacher. She emphasized that she did not want to imply that he has Asberger's. She only brought it up in relation to a conversation we were having about another child, now in his 20's, with a very high IQ and a few different behaviors. Then she said, "besides, if your DS has it, I'm sure it's very mild." Interpret that as you wish. She asked if I could observe him in other settings, such as church, where he's in a more chaotic environment with children moving around, etc. She told me that Asberger's presents itself in those types of environments more than at home. I emphasized that I do not think he has any real symptoms, except that he read early. She emphasized that the symptoms may only be obvious in settings such as school or church. This is a new one for me. Any thoughts? I just feel like she is trying to find a diagnosis, and is not open to the possibility that he's just a bright kid who is no longer appropriately stimulated. I just feel like she is looking for a "problem." And it's surprising to me. I feel like I would be the last person to be in denial about a potential disorder such as Asberger's. I just can't see any correlation. Is it really possible to see one side of my child at home, with family, with friends, at play...and to see another completely different side of him at school? That I don't ever see at home?

Which makes me feel more confident that I should find another plan, and withdraw him from the school. Our goal is to have Plan B in place by the end of next month. I don't know how realistic it is to have him tested within the next few weeks. I suppose it could take awhile to get on a list?

I spoke to our local university about testing, at someone's recommendation. They typically have PhD students perform the testing, and the children are typically those who are suspected to have learning disabilities. My child would not fit the typical description. So...I'm thinking this is not a good option. The school counselor I spoke with gave me a few names to contact, along with the GT coordinator for this area/district. So I have a bit more research to do.

I feel so deflated that I'm even being asked to observe my own son in another setting to see if I can identify the red flags for Asberger's. I would be the first to be his advocate if he was diagnosed. I am a physical therapist and believe strongly in early intervention with a variety of therapy needs. So I do not feel that I am blind to this issue. I just think this is being blown way out of proportion.

I told his teacher today that I have found a wonderful support group/forum/resource online, and that I firmly believe that his "issues" are not related to autism, but rather to the fact that he has an amazing little mind. I told her what I have read and heard from all of you about the potential "behavior" issues, or defense mechanisms, as I prefer :), around this time of preschool. I told her that I would love to see how he interacts with a classroom of 6 and 7 year olds. She voiced her support and her interest in trying to help Jonathan. She was excited that this path may be our path, as opposed to Asberger's, which, again, we don't really take seriously anyway.I felt pretty brave,heehee, when I told her that I feel like his current environment is no longer appropriate. I told her that I don't feel like she has necessarily contributed to that fact, but rather, it just no longer meets his needs. She really is a lovely person and I know she cares about Jonathan. Perhaps these teachers typically have little experience in identifying those children with behaviors who have our son's developmental history. So I'm trying not to hold her accountable for suggesting that he may need a diagnosis. I'm trying to just deal with this and realize that no one caused it. It just is what it is. It happened as a result of DS being in the wrong environment for too long.

OK. Enough rambling.

Thanks again for any advice/input you have. I would welcome any further comments.

Thanks,
Allison

Wow Allison -
You have come so far so fast! Take a minute to breath here and enjoy the vista. Wow!

It sounds like you are starting to forgive the preschool teacher for her "Asberger's Comment." I wish she had found a better way to alert you to the difference between you child and many children, and the the seriousness that you need to take this difference with - but at least it happened! Someday you will look back with gratitude that "someone" smelled a rotten fish, and you child's spirit didn't just float along, rotting quietly.

Sure, go through the motions of "observing" him, at Church, and with his older friends as well....hint, hint.
I'm read that gifted children are often advanced at what they want out of friends, and dissapointed by agemates at times.

Always remember that a Level IV gifted kid is going to be about 1:100 in a group of "normal Gifted" kids (Level II, or top 3%)so that good, qualified professionals may be totally outside their area with your son. Having the PhD students do the test would probably give you a very high number but very little info to go with it. A local professional might be better, but again there is the 1:100 problem. And yes, there may be a wait.

Question 1: Does his current school have an "older group?"
Question 2: Will the public school do the IQ test themselves? Would he have to enrolled in Kindy now? Would they consider that? This may not be the best answer with the current "adaptations" if the work wouldn't be at his readiness level.
Quesetion 3: Very exciting that you plan to have him out by the end of the month. What are your plans?
Smiles,
Trinity

I just want to chime in to say that it sounds like you WERE very brave! Pat yourself on the back because that's hard! We're nice people who don't like to make waves. It's hard to say "No, that won't work" to an authority figure like your child's teacher. It sounds like you did great and probably made some headway even. Focusing on the appropriateness of the environment was a really good move. Good on ya'!

I think it's pretty common for HG+ kids to attract the (inaccurate) Asperger's label. Both situations can involve near-obsessive interest in a subject, knowledge far beyond the norm, and social awkwardness among same-age peers. (And possibly other overlaps--I'm not terribly knowledgable about Asperger's...) The mom of another child in our circle once "diagnosed" my son with Asperger's, though he's highly social and socially appropriate.

I also have a longtime friend whose child has extreme asynchronous development. He's perhaps the most intellectually gifted child I've ever met, but he's a good three years behind socially. He got the Asperger's label thrown around like mad at school because school was so exhausting for him that his behavior got worse and worse as the week wore on...even though his father is a psychologist with a Ph.D. whose JOB is to ID kids with Asperger's for a prominent children's hospital! The kid lives with an expert! Come on! Anyway, the child was tested and retested, but he was always found negative for Asperger's. The kid's mom finally told the school, "Look, it's not possible to have Asperger's only on Thursday and Friday. His behavior the other 5 days of the week doesn't fit the diagnosis for Asperger's, so that can't be what it is." She fought the school and this erroneous diagnosis by non-experts for 3 years before she finally chose to home school him.

My point is that sometimes a little knowledge of a condition is a dangerous thing, especially in an educator. Please don't let the teacher's words bug you too much. Certainly you should consider Asperger's, just as you should consider anything that might be relevant to your child's health and well-being. But you've done that! If it's wrong, it's wrong. Next question!

Just don't let it get you down.

Like Trinity, I'm interested in what your plan B is.

Hang in there!

As the parent of a kid (now pretty much grown) with Asperger's (with a *P*, if you please) , I'd like to chime in here. If you are not feeling a huge sense of relief at finally realizing what it is that makes your child so different, then I will go out on a limb and say that he probably doesn't have AS. My son has quirks that all make sense under the Aspie label. It explains his social problems, his one sided speech patterns, his lack of curiosity about other people, his low muscle tone, poor handwriting, lack of awareness of personal space, extreme reactions to lights, noise, crowds, tactile sensations, etc. Many of these have become less obvious with time and a LOT of overt teaching, but he will always have these tendencies. While it is possible to learn to cope with autism, I don't believe anyone can actually be "cured" of it.

My son enjoys spending time with friends, but he is 18 and still pretty much plays parallel style through role playing and video games. He rarely thinks to ask his friends, "what's new?" or "when are you leaving for college?" He just doesn't think to ask them anything beyond "what game should we play next?" or "are you hungry?" He lives very much in the moment, and finds it difficult to talk about the future.

There is a very broad spectrum for kids with different forms of autism. I do encourage you to look at NVLD (non verbal learning disability) if AS seems way off, just in case you are not familiar with it. It's similar to AS, but generally has a much milder affect on people. It's like AS light. I suggest this just as a precaution, and I sincerely hope that your son does not fit under any of these labels.

best wishes-

OK! What a week!

Let me start by again expressing my sincere gratitude for your interest and concern, your thoughts/opinions/advice. I am soaking it in and am so grateful for this community! So THANK YOU!!

I think perhaps our most defining moment for this week was a visit with our DS's physician, whom we respect quite a bit. He has a history of thinking out of the box when it comes to our family, including being the gateway to find a diagnosis for my husband's rare disease, which was called "panic attacks" for twelve years. So we have built a sense of trust over the years.(It was actually anaphylaxis.He's fine, by the way.) And we also know that WE are our own strongest advocates for our own medical care. That should help in the uphill climb with being an advocate for our son, I think.

As I explained what has been going on at school to our MD, he just shook his head, and said several times, "This is ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous." He immediately started listing all of the possible explanations to these "behaviors." Each one was completely in line with what I have read on this site or through links to this site, or with what you all have shared with me. He finally said, "Your son is just BORED. That's his only problem. I've known all along that he is highly intelligent. This is no new news to me." He must have had experience with this topic before, as it sounded an awful lot like he had been reading pages from this website. He was completely supportive, and, just for the record, performed what he called an "Asperger's Screen." He and DS, as they always do when I take him in, sat down and talked about a variety of topics from being a chef to pretending on the playground, etc. DS now says he wants to be chef when he grows up, and have a restaurant with a bowling theme. How funny is that? His specialty, he told the doctor, will be "PB & J for sure." Anyway, I feel confident that I should not worry about any type of developmental delay. Our doctor assured me he sees absolutely nothing to worry about. Quite the contrary, actually. He again stated that he has known DS was "a little genius" from the first time they met. I use that term with reservation. I feel funny even typing it or saying it. I'm just quoting the doctor. He also told me that "I take care of two other little geniuses" a few years older than DS. We discussed a few of the issues they had with schools, etc. and how becoming "labeled" is so detrimental at this age. He agreed that I should take DS out of his current program (even though his own children go to the same school and he really loves it). He agrees with me that the damage has been done in this particular environment, and that even if DS seems to bounce back and get his spark back :), that things will always be different at this particular school. He told me that some children like DS simply need a bit more structure than what a typical Montessori program has to offer, and that one of his other little patients like DS is thriving in the public school system. His parents are very involved and are constantly trying to find new ways to keep him challenged, and it's working very nicely at this point.

Our MD also agreed with the school counselor on which psychologist to use in town to test DS.

He wrapped up with our conversation by saying, "You know, sometimes teachers have such a NARROW view of the world. All they know is, (and he added a comical redneck drawl), "He just ain't like them other kids!" and they don't know what to do with him. So they start to look for a label."

So...can I just say how RELIEVED I feel?!! And how FABULOUS it is to have another professional agree with my own intuition?!! We are lucky to have such a great advocate in our family doctor.

OK. Here's our plan: focus on home schooling at least until next fall, when DS will either start kindergarten or bump up to first grade, most likely at the local public school, of which I have heard nothing but praise.

We will finish out this semester at the Montessori school, just to allow for some closure with friends/routine/calendar, etc. and to provide childcare, essentially, on the two days that I work as a physical therapist. DS will probably only attend 2 partial days a week, though, at this point. After the holidays, I will either let him go to a Mother's Day Out program at our church two days a week (just to get in some serious fun time), or we will look into a few other preschools in the area for two days a week. I work on Tuesdays and Thursdays for about 5 or 6 hours. Our daughter, who is only 8 months, goes to Mothers Day Out. It is a wonderful little program and I think DS would have a lot of fun. If our budget can handle it, I will leave my job and Monday through Friday can focus at least a few hours a day on home schooling.

We have already started doing "lessons" at home and he absolutely loves it. He is putting a star on the calendar for each lesson he completes. When he gets 50 stars, we are headed to Target for a $10.00 toy. I thought this might spark a little interest and help make learning a little more fun, since he has been so withdrawn lately. So far it seems to be working beautifully. He initiates the process himself without me having to say, "it's time for a lesson!" He seems joyful, confident, and generally just happy to be doing his little workbooks. And, of course, our entire day is essentially home schooling. We learned about tools/batteries/electricity flow this morning when he helped me change the batteries in his baby sister's play aquarium. And we used measuring cups to fix a recipe in the kitchen. We talked about outer space when he asked, "Does outer space have a sky?" He seems really concerned about how his sister got into my tummy in the first place, also. He keeps saying, "Well, was she in there when you were a little girl and then she just grew bigger? Because if she wasn't in there before, and then she was, how did she get there?" My answer of "God put her there and helped her grow" just isn't cutting it. The same holds true for the tooth fairy. He keeps saying, "I just don't think that a tooth fairy lives on this earth." How are you all answering these tough questions? How much is too much information for a four year old?

And now for a HUGE change in our family: even my husband's mother now is convinced that Jonathan needs to be home schooled. I cannot even TELL you how big this is!! She has been trying to talk me out of it for several years now. I have only brought it up occasionally, but she has made her opinion very clear. So has my husband's sister. My husband's family is well-educated and well meaning, but they are a bit old fashioned at times. So I am really thrilled that now they are seeing things a little differently. Not that I would let their opinion persuade me one way or the other. Let me be clear on that. My husband and I are a united front when it comes to raising our children. But it is really nice to have their support in big issues such as this.

Our next step is to pursue testing. I appreciate your advice to wait a few months and do some home schooling first. I think that's a great idea. I'm not really sure where his true abilities are since he has not been very active in his school lessons lately.

Then we will just take one week at a time until Christmas, and spend as little time as possible at school. I feel so relieved to have made the decision to pull him out. I know it is the right thing for our family. And I've already spoken with the business office to ensure that we can get a refund for next semester.

I'm really leaning towards the public school system in our community. I don't know yet if we will push for him to start first grade. A lot of it will depend on testing results, I suppose. Even if he has to go through kindergarten first, I think it will be worth trying. The system gets the highest rating available year after year. And friends who have their little ones there are pleased. Plus, the counselor gave me the name of the GT director for the school system. I will contact her and get some more information, as well. I honestly don't even think that the local private schools would have as much to offer as public system.

I'm really just feeling better about so many things.

I am grateful that all of this has happened. It has been a huge wake-up call for DS's dad and I. We have been floating along for several years now not really having to deal with any issues of a gifted child, except feeling quite proud when others remark, "HOW old is your son?!!" as he was reading a sign or a book or something at age 2 or 3. (I think we would all admit that is kind of fun, isn't it?) This series of recent events has forced us to realize that we can't just float along any more. Hopefully, things ahead will be smooth. But I know now a little more about what to expect. And I am so grateful to have all of these wonderful resources at my fingertips! I had no idea there was so much information available to help us parent him.

So again, thank you to all who have responded! Your continued comments are always welcome!

Warmest regards,
Allison

Allison-

You need to do what feels right for your family regarding the birds and the bees. I'll share my story, and maybe others will also.

My son was 3.5 when his little sister was born. So quite naturally, he became interested in the birds and the bees when he was around three. He used to read my childbirth books and watch childbirth videos and a tv show which I think was called, "A Baby's Story". We bought him a couple children's books on the topic as well. So he was very well informed at an early age and too young to be embarrassed by any of it.

That little girl started growing up with all of these materials still hanging around the house. She asked lots of questions and though she wasn't reading much until about 2.5, she enjoyed looking at the photos and illustrations, and remembered everything she was told. We attended a party when this DD was 20 or 21 months old. There was a very pregnant woman there, and her only other child was six years old. She whispered to me that her son knew NOTHING and that they wanted to keep it that way. Later that evening, the boy asked about how the baby got into his Mom, and I had to steer my toddler out of the room, and distract her,lest she spill the beans! She was very articulate and would have given a short lecture on the topic! This is one of those incidents that stands out in my mind to illustrate how different my kids can be.

DS was also about 4 when he asked, "I can understand how the mom's genes get into the baby, but I don't see how the dad's get there." So I told him; I've worked in reproductive health a lot and am pretty fearless about talking with him about anything. He thought my explanation was disgusting. But, he was also reading all the movie reviews, and had noticed a lot that said "rated R for sex." So he was really glad to know what sex was and felt confident that he was not missing anything interesting by not seeing those movies! I'd rather have him hear if from me than anyone else or try to figure it out on his own.

Re: Tooth fairy. When he started asking, I just kept asking him questions back, like, "well, why does't it make sense? What would explain it, instead?" I let him figure it himself out with some coaching from me. he was so proud when he got it.

My mother always said that if a child is old enough to formulate a questions, they are old enough to get an answer. Start your answer at a basic level and then go deeper if they still seem curious or ask more questions.

Alee,
I'm so glad that your Pediatrician is a resource! That is wonderful. Glad your inlaws are supportive also. The testing will give you lots of insight and I'm very pleased for you. I think our children need us to "mirror" back to them their nature, which includes lots of things, but the "shape of their mind" is certianly one of them.

If it's any help, I called "DNA" a "map" that gives directions on how to build a baby. I said that Daddy's DNA and Mom's DNA are helped to be put together by God. I tried to make jokes about it. I found that my son was particularly interested in the "what does birth feel like" and that I was comfortable pointing out where his DNA will get packaged up someday, and where it will come out, but that it isn't the same tube as the pee. The female anatomy was left more shadow-y. I think I probably made reference to the way his lego and k'nex pieces fit together, when he finally got around to asking.

I think that we can explain a lot if we look at if from their point of view, use words and actions they are familiar with, and stick to the spirit of the explaination.

Smiles,
Trinity

Trinity wrote:
"Question 1: Does his current school have an "older group?"
Question 2: Will the public school do the IQ test themselves? Would he have to enrolled in Kindy now? Would they consider that? This may not be the best answer with the current "adaptations" if the work wouldn't be at his readiness level."

Hi!

Yes, his current school does have an older group. He is in a Montessori school, in a class with 3, 4, and 5 year olds. He is 4. Last year worked beautifully. Towards the end of the year, I knew he was ready for kindergarten, but the teacher clearly did not support letting him start early. This year, however, she gave him the option of joining the 5 year olds who stay after lunch for "kindergarten." She made it clear it would not "count" as kindergarten, but he could join them (along with three others his age). DS made it VERY clear on the first day that he did not want to stay in her room all day. I knew something was amiss at this point, but we decided it was back to school jitters or something mild. He simply has not been happy the whole semester in her class. The only way to join an older group would be to go over to the elementary side of the building, with the 6/7/8 year old class.(Again, it's three years in the same class. Clearly not something that will work for him.) I thought about asking, but I think it may confuse him and cause some anxiety to be going to the same building every day but suddenly to a new class with new friends. Plus, I do not think the school would be open to it if they would not even consider allowing kindergarten to happen early.

I'm not sure if the school system would pay for the testing. I know his current school will not, and he is not old enough for the public system yet. So I doubt it would even be an issue. I need to do some more research, though, on having testing covered. That would be pretty fabulous!

Thanks so much for your interest and advice!

Allison

I have considered this over the past few days and I think it's something we should try. I may enroll him in the Mother's Day Out program at our church, which would be similar. Lots of fun time, playing indoors and out, without much focus on academia. Thank you. I do think this is something that may work for us for the remainder of the school year, while we focus on home schooling the other 3 days a week.

Allison

Just thought I'd mention this is EXACTLY what our doctor said the other day. Not that I think he is always right with everything. It's just nice to have that professional support of my own gut feeling.

Allison

Thank you! This is a great point. I'm not even really sure where his abilities are at this point. I would guess he's at least reading at a 2nd grade level, but I really do not know for sure because he has been "unplugged" (or "completely unproductive" according to his teacher) for several months now. This will give us a good opportunity to figure things out a bit before testing, and to rebuild his confidence. Our little "lessons" at home have been going beautifully over the past few days. He seems interested and seems to be having a great time. Lots of smiling again.

And, yes, he will be five soon. I will have to look into the Young Scholars Program. I'm not exactly sure what that is, but sounds very interesting. Thanks for mentioning it.

Warm regards,
Allison

VERY cute! I love these stories!

This topic has simmered down a bit, but will come up again soon as DS has a wiggly tooth. We might have to address whether or not the tooth fairy "lives on this earth" before he turns five.

Allison

Hey!

Well, I spoke to another private school in the area (a parochial school). I was very briefly discussing DS's current situation with the administrator, and asked how her school deals with grade skipping(specifically kindergarten) or early entrance to first grade.

She then proceeded to give me a lecture on socialization, and all of the typical things that are said by many..."What will happen when he's 15 and everyone else is 16 and he's the only one not driving? You know, you have to consider this aspect, too." blahblahblahblah. I wanted to say, "you're right. This has not been any kind of agonizing decision on our end. Gosh. Socialization? Please tell me more!!We're just his parents. What do we know?" Instead, I very respectfully, and briefly, explained, with a forced smile, that DS is quite developed socially, and actually seems to prefer children a few years older with which to interact. I explained how he has been withdrawn and uninterested, and that I certainly do not have all the answers, but that I am trying to gather some information to see what our options might be. I explained that my primary concern is getting him plugged in again - interested in a lifetime of learning, and that if he was reading and writing at two, I'm not sure he would be interested in a traditional kindergarten curriculum.

So I guess we won't be pursuing that particular school. Even for regular enrollment.

Just venting a bit! But, WOW. There seemed to be an immediate brick wall that just magically built itself between me and this administrator when I asked that question. My favorite comment was, "You know, I've been doing this a LONG time."

Allison

Oh Allison,
How Sad!
Trinity

Haha! Cute, Dottie!

You know, since I am a wee bit OCD on a bad day, and I love making lists, and crossing off items...this lets me cross off this particular school! You see, they just did me a favor and made my life a bit simpler. One less to consider, heehee.

It just confirms our decision to home school next semester. I still think I may take him to Mothers Day OUt, though, at least one day a week, just to get in some fun time with a group of other 4 yr. olds. If he can handle such a a homogeneous group, hehee.

Allison

That doesn't sound fun (your experience with the private school) . I am planning on going to the school a couple blocks away soon, to talk to them about starting kindergarden next year, and about grade skipping, etc. I"M so nervous! Trinity has been cheering me on though, so I'm going to be brave (or as DS3 would say courageous)! We're out in the country and so is this school..so it would be so great if they just happen to be willing to work with DS3. I"ll have to just vent here if they don't so i don't get discouraged! My plan is to just go from there to each school in town, until i find one who will. I'm hoping to find a recommendation from someone though (like his preschool teachers)to narrow the search sooner.

That's the spirit Jenafur! It takes a while, but it's worth it.
Smiles,
Trinity

Hi, all! I thought I'd post an update since I started this thread in a panic about what to do. We have come a long way in the past month!

We decided to pull our 4 yr old DS out of the Montessori school due to what we thought might be withdrawal/disinterest associated with some of the typical things that happen to giften children. I just did not feel they could address his lack of interest and the loss of his little spark.

Then, we found a local but very large and reputable university psych. department that offers a whole battery of testing for only $300.00. We are working with a doctoral student who was the only student chosen by a very reputable child psychologist in our area for her to mentor. And, I feel so incredibly lucky/blessed by this part of the picture: she is a mother with three gifted children. Her 9 year-old son is PG. AND she lives in our school district, so she has a wealth of experience and wisdom to share regarding testing/gifted programs/early entrance. What are the odds?!! My point is that I feel really good about having her do our testing. I can't ignore the fact that we are saving several thousand dollars, also, by taking this route initially.

We completed the SB-V today and received a range of 140-150. Our "hard" score is 140. She pointed out that he hit the ceiling on a number of the tests, particularly the ones that are a more accurate indicator of his real score, according to her, but continued to answer questions correctly, even though he could not continue to receive points for it. There were also a number of exercises that DS could clearly do, but he was not understanding the directions fully. And, of course, she could not re-state the directions as the test is standardized. For example, one of the patterns was a row of squares with dots inside. He began, "two, four, six, eight, ten, twelve!" He got the pattern right away, but he said, "I guess two comes next." As though the pattern starts over again. He didn't understand that it should continue. The fact that 14 comes next is a fairly simple concept for him. So, it was just really interesting to see how the test cannot measure everything accurately. Totally fascinating, though, in general! I was so glad she asked me to stay in the room. I was allowed to sit and observe just a few feet behind him. What a fun experience!

We are also planning to do the Woodcock-Johnson, I believe, as well as one or two others to help identify his best learning style. As of this point, we are going to home school for the spring semester and summer, and try to decide in the meantime how to handle kindergarten/first grade. The achievement tests will help quite a bit, also, I'm sure, in that decision.

So...I have to say to all parents: follow your intuition!! We knew that there was something amiss with our little boy. He just seemed so unhappy at school, but we couldn't figure it out. Now it all makes sense.

I have a few questions if you feel like responding. I'd love any and all input.

1. Our tester stated that it would be almost punishing to make him sit through a year of kindergarten. What do you think? I'm feeling pretty certain we should pursue first grade, but I'm not sure.

2. Do you think a Montessori environment is appropriate for this type of child? I am concerned that three years in the same class could be a bit draining, but I don't know.

3. What would you do next?!

I'm so appreciative to all of you for your candid responses in the past. You all have really helped me through this process. It has truly opened a new door in our lives. It's kind of exciting to see how it's unfolding. After being introduced to Ruf's levels, based on DS's development, I placed him between a 4 and a 5, and I feel like the testing reflects it.

So thank you all!!

Sincerely,
Allison

Allison,

So Awesome!!!!!! This is such a good story to hear. I'm glad you trusted your instincts.
What to do next? Formulate a plan and be ready to change it at anytime!!
I think I wanted a manual for my girls, but no one can give it to me. And the one I'm currently writing on my experiences won't work for anyone else!
I think you will know what to do when you get the results from the WJ.
My DD5 seems similar to your DS.
I did put her in kindergarten this year, but it's only a half day. I consider it her public school vaccination. Just enough to get her acclimated, not enough to kill her!
I held my breath and truly expected the worse.
Amazingly, she loves it. We had a little rough patch with the kindergarten teacher, but we've worked it out. DD gets pulled out with 3 others twice a week and she loves it.
I volunteer quite a bit (ie: get a good chance to covertly spy on my girls) and it's remarkable to watch her.
She has this totally focused look on her face, she's all business, trying to figure out all the social stuff.
We're very happy now, but it goes month to month, year to year, teacher to teacher.
So, plan for the best and expect the worst.
You should have all your bases covered, then.

Congrats,
Incog

Wow Allison,
Great News!
I'm so glad your tester is on your wavelength! That's a wonderful price. I would ask her to do the WJ achievement, and some above-level achievement tests that will work for the Iowa Acceleration Scale Manual, such as

ITBS/Explore/ACT/CAT

these are tests that are usually used at grade level as an acheivement test, but if you administer them 2 years ahead of the intended age, and score above 75percentile for the older kids, thats up to 10 additional points on your Iowa Acceleration Scale.

All that info together will help you be sure that a skip into first at the public school.

Alternativly, you can see if the Montessori will place him in the 6-7-8 room with the understanding that he will be there for as long or short as it takes him to complete the highest level of work they have. Obviously he won't be there for three years, but that doesn't mean it's not a good choice for one year. Ruf estimated level III and up kids tend to be hard to place academically, so instead of looking for the big solution, look for "this year, and maybe next."

I call this the Goldilocks problem. Last year DS11 was totally swamped organizationally at his new school with the grade skip and middle school and all. This year he is back to his old tricks of completing his homework in study halls, and 75% of the time doing scary wonderful, and 25% or less totally blowing the organizational parts. That's a big jump, and I'm starting to think that by next year he'll be back to sleepwalking. Why can't he have a nice even, calm existience? Too easy, too hard, where is my just right?

Best Wishes Allison,
I'm so pleased for your family!
Trinity

Both are good choices.

The two things K often (though not always) has going for it are 1) it's often only a half-day program, so the child can be in a school setting part of the day and still have time and energy for his own projects the other part of the day, and 2) it's often focused on the social and the exploratory rather than the strictly academic.

#2 might sound contrary to what you want for a HG+ kid, but for a kid greatly advanced in academics, getting the social without being subjected to a lot of academic stuff that he already knows can work nicely. Our DS6 was very happy in half-day K with a good teacher who recognized and enjoyed his abilities, differentiated what work there was, but mostly let him do his own thing as much as she could. Then the other half of the day he pursued his more academic projects at home. He was very happy.

Our problematic year was 1st grade. YMMV, naturally, but since 1st grade is the big push-to-read year around here, it was the year DS6 had trouble. From what I've read, this is pretty common.

Check out what K and 1st grade are doing in your area. If your schools are like ours and K is play while 1st grade is the learn-to-read year, then I'd probably recommend doing K this coming year with plenty of at-home enrichment and skipping 1st grade the following year.

But follow your gut and the guidance of this tester, since she seems like a good guide for you and she knows the schools. If you think he needs more from school now, then do it!

Oh, and as for Montessori--really check out the program. Some are great, but we got into one that was very lock-step about requiring the completion of activity 1 before our son could go on to activity 2. (Even though before we enrolled him, I told them he was reading books and asked if he would have to complete all the pre-reading activities first...They just lied!) That meant that he was supposed to be doing letter ID activities that he could have done when he was not yet 2! His response: he just never did anything in the language arts section of the room. Not good.

My much-too-gentle advocacy for him was ineffective. It wasn't until our January conference--after a mid-term evaluation that TOTALLY missed the boat on DS6's abilities--when my DH and I together insisted upon changes that things finally changed. The teachers reluctantly let DS6 skip the "easy stuff," and he did a week's worth of (still too easy) LA activities in a day. They moved him on to reading fast after that, but I saw how bad it can be to have rigid rules in place about what activities kids must do.

A friend of mine had a similar sort of problem with her highly asynchronous kid at a different Montessori program, so I know that ours wasn't the only one like that. Just beware. Having a bunch of levels of materials in the room does a child no good if he isn't allowed to use any of it!

Thank you, all!! I appreciate your feedback! I will certainly mention those tests, Trinity, that you have suggested and will discusee them with our tester.

And, Kriston, you bring up some really good points about Montessori programs. I am really leaning towards not even trying it again. I think our particular school is very similar to what you are describing. DS was asked to join the kindergarteners a year early on the first day of school. However, I was informed that even if he did all the work acceptably, this year would not actually "count" as kindergarten. I was completely appalled by this but did not voice my feelings, because I felt that surely they would allow him to start the lower elementary program after they saw what he could do in kindergarten. But...now I'm not so sure. I even felt a bit of resistance from the head master when I discussed DS's results with her the other day. She reminded me that starting first grade a year early should not only be based upon academic ability, but social development, as well, blahblahbalbhalbh. You know the rest. And thank you for your insights regarding perhaps skipping first grade. I have not thought about it that way. You make some very good arguments. I will definitely have to check out our local system.

Incog, I think a half day of K would be pretty fabulous. Unfortunately, around here, it's a full day for the little guys. I've heard that this school district is typically more "advanced" than the rest of the city. But that's just the local rumor. I need to investigate and see for myself what is actually happening. And I really appreciate your advice to be flexbile! I guess we are learning early how important that is! I really never expected to withdraw him from school. It's interesting, though. Even my extended family is noticing a difference in him. He just seems happier.

I do have a few more questions for you guys.

1. What are your thoughts about a 140 on the SB-V? I'd love some perspective, particularly on the 140 - 150 range. I know we hit several 19's. I don't know exactly how many, because our tester has not put together a full review. This was just a quick score at the end of the session. (By the way - an interesting note
: our tester initially said it would take about 1.5 hours to test. We ended up spending almost 5 hours over 2 days because DS kept moving up a level and having to go thrugh the subtests again. I KNOW he was tired/uninterested/bored at times. That's a long time for a four year old to sit still and test. We did have at least 3 or 4 five minute breaks each session, though.)

2.How reliable/valid do you think it is for a 4 year old?

This is all very new to me. This was the test she recommended, so I just went with it. Especially since we are having several assessments done.

I think his lowest score was in the "knowledge" section. Which is very interesting, I guess, and somewhat encouraging/scary depending on how you look at it. If he hit 19's on some of the test ( I believe "routing" is one of the major ones?) then one would expect the score to go up, because knowledge should increase with age. However, logical sequencing/patterning/routing should stay the same. She encouraged me to bring him back in 6 to 12 months, after we have time to exlore home schooling, and redo the SB-V.

Do you think this is a good idea? Should we go for those extra 5 points to hit the 99.9th? Especially if she is ranging him at 140 to 150? And am I even interpreting this correctly? I'm just starting to understand how one test cetainly does NOT give the big picture.

I guess I'm still not exactly sure what the DYS program is all about. I do know that one must have a 145 to even apply, and that five years is the youngest age eligible.

OK. I know I'm rambling a bit. Sorry! It's late, my DD baby still isn't sleeping through the night, and I'm feeling this incredibly huge responsibility not to fail my son. I know you guys understand.

Again, I am so very grateful for your advice.

Thank you!!

Allison

Allison,

OT: How old is DD? Lots of High IQ kids are terrible sleepers. What hasn't worked so far? You must be exhausted!

If your tester will be around, and only charges 300$, then I would definitly do over in 6 to 12 months.

How many Parents here have Montessori Schooled Kids with lower than expected "knowledge subtests?" I don't know what it means, and I'm not at all sure it's bad, but I sure do see a pattern. I didn't do Montessori, for fear of the practice, although the theory sounds great, and I sure love the idea of an independent learner.

Allison,
In some ways, letting the child do work at their readiness level, without giving them credit and forcing a skip is very appealing. For a competitive/athletic child, imagine being allowed to take Middle School Math/Science and LA, while staying with their elementary agemates for art, music and gym, and being able to be on teams with their agemates. Ironically, around here, a lot of DS11's friends play on teams with older grade children. It's called "playing up" and a great honor.

Personally, I'll take the documented gradeskip for my particular DS, as he has 'grade loyalty' and I can't risk having to fight my battles over again.

Yes, dear, flexibility is key.
and
No, dear, I can't picture him going back to his old school.

Having a demanding DD may be a benifit to your homeschooling, as it will be a built in pressure for DS to be somewhat responsible and somewhat independent, in a good way.

Smiles,
Grinity

My DS took about 4 hours on this test at age 10. He did it without breaks and was very tired and hungry when he was done. she said he seemed to be holding up fine, but I always wondered if he would do better if he had had a snack and a run around the building.

Routing, I think, is the first book, which tells how high to place the next round of tests. I don't think it give a score in its own right.

Knowledge is less what you learn in school and what you observe on your own. DS gave me expamples which I cannot share here, but at least some of the questions involved looking at pictures and saying what is wrong with the picture, such as basic laws of physics; they can get get pretty subtle.

I would probably choose an achievement test over a repeat of the SB5 until say he is 7 or so. That one 150 is enough to meet minimum for DYS; you don't need the FSIQ if either of the VIQ or NVIQ is >145.

DS6 took the SB5 in Oct. The tester said that kids who are more verbal than visual tend to have trouble with the knowledge questions on the SB5. (Mine did, and that's how I found out that he's verbal instead of visual, despite his affinity for puzzles and mazes.)

The knowledge questions on the SB5 are apparently couched as "what's wrong/silly in this picture". It's very observational kinds of stuff in the world around you, things you'd know from experience, not so much facts per se. To make one up off the top of my head (and if this is on the test, it's purely a lucky guess!): someone drops something off a building and it "falls" up instead of down.

It doesn't really seem to me to be "knowledge" like we'd usually think of knowledge, if that helps, though I wouldn't know of a better term for it either...

I finally read this this whole thread. It has been so helpful to me. I also just read through the Advocacy for Exceptionally Gifted Young People. Feel lucky that I do live in NYC because of the school options.

I understood that you couldn't do a SB again for 12 months, at least for acceptance where required.

Our daughter did some modified version that the gifted prechool at Columbia required. We couldn't do the SB now since she has to do it in October for Kindergarten application in 2009. And I think you have to be 4.

I have also heard, that IQs can change quite a bit through the early years. The Advocacy paper suggests not even testing until post 6 years. Hunter requires retesting after 6th grade because they have found that young children testing as gifted can normalize and others will now test gifted.

Most people write about homeschooling. Does anyone have experience with gifted elementary schools out there?

Ren