Another question, about toddlers. Does anyone have advice on how to count a toddler's vocabulary.

Two weeks ago, I started writing a list, but stopped at 200 and couldn't keep up with all DD's phrases. I thought she might be at 300, but now I think it's more like 900-1000. She just knows every word.

Anybody even try to write them down or otherwise capture them?

After about 18 months, I quit at "knows hundreds of words." I didn't see any point in continuing the count!

Great question, funny question.

Great because - I have wondered off an on over the years how "official" counts are made by the developmental experts. (for a change, I was only moderately curious and never did any further investigating)

Funny because -

I forget how old my ds was... I really can't remember! But there was a certain point where I just gave up counting. I had a notebook and I would write down all the words he knew and knew well. Every couple of days/weeks I would count them up. One day I said to my mother , do you know how many words he knows now? And her reply was something like: a lot/more than you can write? And that's when I stopped trying to count.

EW

No. Not with a GT kid. We did what you did for a while, but both our kids' vocabularies were just booming too fast to keep up.

And really, why bother? The reason for counting is to be sure the child isn't delayed, right? Well, that doesn't seem to be a problem!

I kept a pregnancy diary, and once DS5 arrived I just kept on writing, so I have a pretty complete record of his development and interests (which is already fun, and which I anticipate passing on to him some day!). It was natural to write down words we heard, to start with. Once he was really beginning to talk I started a real list, but I stopped it once I got to 100 words, i.e. I was only actually keeping a list for a few weeks. I suppose it would have been interesting to see what order he learned words in even after that, but it was already clear I was missing things and the effort didn't seem worthwhile! I did continue to write down the odd utterance verbatim.

Hey sea-blue,

Wow! I reckon I would give up counting by now too. Have you got a developmental milestone checklist? Before we did testing, the pysch asked us to complete a background/developmental history questionnaire. They asked all sorts of questions that I couldn't fill in. Instead of continuing to count, why not check that you're keeping a record of other key milestones that might help when/if you decide to do a formal evaluation. I've still got a copy of the questionnaire that my psych used if you want me to email it to you... jojo

ps. sounds like you've got one bright cookie!

I just found your site and this is my first post. I am trying to learn everything I can about gifted kids so I can figure out if my dd is gifted. She seems to be very high functioning verbally. She just turned 2 and talks in grammatically correct complete sentences. She started with short sentences at 17 months and is now at the point where she can say anything with the correct pronoun, tense, etc. I know that this is above average but is it considered gifted? She also seems much older than her age in other ways but the talking is her biggest strength.

We kept track of our daughter's first words. I had a website all about her for the first year (for relatives far away) and I would update that every so often with her new words. Their languages develops so quickly, so we didn't bother keeping track of her new words for very long. We did, however, keep track of her signs and made a note when she learned knew ones (this was only in the first year since she doesn't use them anymore). I found it useful to keep track so that when I left her with her grandparents I could remember to tell them her new signs so that they could understand her! I used to email them lists of the sings she new...wow I must have been an annoying new mom! lol

jojo, what sort of milestones are on the list? i don't keep track of anything! I guess maybe I should...one day she might ask me when she learned to walk up stairs etc. I will definitely be able to tell her that she started sleeping through the night 2 weeks before her second birthday! I won't forget that milestone (well maybe that isn't a developmental milestone (?), but it is definitely a huge milestone in this house!!!!)!

Hey, thanks everyone for your responses. It was such a dumb question I was afraid no one would respond!

I took DD to her ped yesterday for bronchitis and mentioned that she now has 200-300 words. Her ped said, "Wow, she's 22 months old... I look for 50 words at 24 months." That drove me to some lists of giftedness and some of normal language development. It looked like DD was at the 48 month mark in most language areas, so then I started wondering if I'm crazy or if she really does have a vocabulary of 900-1000 words.

Here's one site:

http://www.childdevelopmentinfo.com/development/language_development.shtml

Jojo, I'd love to see your lists!

Ruf's list was confusing for me, I might have to purchase the book. DD is much earlier on some points (attention span of 60+ mins at 10 months), but later with other stuff (she doesn't know her colors, everything is "blue").

Anyway, I'm definitely not going to do any more note taking on her words. She's been saying motorcycle and helicopter for months now, in context, and pomegranate seeds. You name it. Last week she said to DH "Put down wine and make me a bath?" LOL! When she uses pronouns she does so correctly, (I say, "I'll go get you Lizard," and she responds, "You'll get me Lizard.") although she doesn't always choose to use them.

Interesting list; my dd2.5 is way up there too at least according to this list. I wasn't quite sure what this part meant though: "Has number concepts of 4 or more" - what do you think?
I guess this is diff. than counting, because later in the list they say 'counts to 10'.

DD has been following this pattern so far for absorbing these different areas - numbers, colors, letters:
1. all numbers or colors are the same.
2. using diff. number names but mixing them all up, halfway seems like she's joking around.
3. knows numbers up to 5 very solid, knows 2-3 colors.
now she can count to 10++, and call out colors beyond the basic 3 primary and b&w. Still a bit iffy on id'ing numbers when written over say #4. Can count backwards from 5 to 1.
(Couple of months back started asking about tomorrow, yesterday...what are we doing Friday. Last week she asked me if I was going to make a left turn; I almost ran into a lamp post. Probably she was just repeating something I'd said myself...)

Numbers were first, then colors, now she seems to be working on letters. She started in on the mixing them all up phase, trying to match them or making funny juxtapositions when looking at an alphabet book.
Maybe in another 6-8 months she'll be id'ing them correctly more often than not, but I don't want to go too overboard with pressing her. Just enjoying the phases; it's odd they are so clear!

I think "has number concepts up to 4" means they can look at 4 things and say "4" without counting.

I could be wrong though...

seablue - this is a great list. I was wondering when my DS4 would get his "r" and "sh" sounds. It's still funny to hear this little one talk a mile a minute about anything, but he still has these normal little kid sounds.

Funny about the pronouns - DS started, at about 1, calling himself "you" and everyone else "I" because that's how we spoke to him. He'd come up to me and say "Pick you up!" this lasted for over a year - it's very hard to explain this concept!

My older DD would do that. My favorite funny was when you would point to her in a picture and ask "who is that?" She would say, "That's YOU!"

I'm glad we weren't alone!
Once, just before DS was 2, he announced loudly to a friend of mine in a restaurant, "You are wearing underpants!" because he was proud of not being in diapers. She said, "yes...." and then I explained what he was really saying. We had lots of funny moments.

Yes, "Pick you up?" is the one DD is stuck on, too. I don't try to explain. And I agree it's totally weird her enunciation isn't advanced. She will say something and DH and I will play 20 questions with her on what exactly she meant. She's very patient with us while we guess, saying, "No. No. No." and then she praises us when we get it right.

I woke up this morning thinking there's No Way she knows 900-1000 words, but, like everyone says, who cares. "Hundreds of words," works for me, too.

Kriston, thanks for clearing up the "concept of 4" thing. Makes complete sense now.

DD does the matching up similar looking letters thing, too. M-W-N, A-V-Y, etc. The other day we were looking at the letter O on a sign in public and she said, "Nipple."

Has anyone looked into the whole inductive vs. deductive reasoning when it comes to language development?

She just came over to me and I said, "Hey, you smell lke a number 2..." She looked up and said very sincerely, "No. Hippo has a number 2." She's holding a toy hippo. Lying or pretend? What a little rascal.

Language development is tied up with a lot of things, but the last research I saw modelled it using network development and network effects and they had a good fit for rates of development. We are hardwired for it and its just a matter of filling in the blanks - however than occurs.

I kept track with just one of my kids. She had 500 words by 15-16 months and then I gave up counting. The new words were coming too fast and furious those last weeks.

I like to listen to what words toddlers are using. Every time I hear a one or two year old say, "Actually..." it makes my ears perk up. My three year old favors "apparently" right now.

I think DS2.5 is parroting us (but that is a way of learning right) but he does use "I'm having difficulty with..." in completely the right context. I did a double take yesterday when he said that and DW said "oh he's been saying that for a while."

Cute.

JB

I got this one today from dd2.5: "This is irritating!" accompanied by some wailing. I said, "What???" She said, "This is irritating me!!" She was having some sock malfunction which I helped her with, all the while I was thinking, "What???"

I am a late comer to this string but love all the input and is the vocabulary that really started me down this path of gifted. My 26 month has so many words I gave up counting back when she was around 15 months because it was already in the 100s. When she was around 8 months we had the "what's that" and "what's this" game which drove me nuts, but she was adding to her vocabulary. She finally got over it so I thought and then around two we were back to that game. She speaks in complete complicated sentences (10+ words)... even paragraphs as she pretend plays and plays with her dogs.

jojo:

I would love to get my hands on the background/developmental history questionnaire that you offered sea-blue. I think it is a great way to keep track and be prepared for later testing.

Also... I purchased the Ruf book and want some opinions ... I should probably post this separately so just let me know if I need to divide it out or someone can give me a quick response the this question:

The 5 levels for the most part makes sense to me and I know my DD is definitely level 3 or 4. Because of her understanding of opposites and left and right and the complex sentence structure I am more in par with level 4, but time will tell. What I am confused about is what makes the level 5 so different from level 4? If I understand it right they just have an inapt ability from birth and have mastered all kinder skills by two... am I right here? My husband argues that it is possible that our DD just has not been introduced to some of the things mentioned in the book as characteristics such as the puzzles and because of that we can't conclude she isn't level 5, but if I understand level 5 right, than introducing the child to these things at any point doesn't really matter, they just know it with out actually having experienced it before.

I hope that made sense!

Katelyn'sMom -- I wouldn't worry about levels too much yet; your dd is still so young. However, I think Level 5s are one of these, "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it" sort of things.

My cousin, now 24, is a level 5. When doing an intelligence assessment at 3yo, he was shown a picture of a pot with some steam coming out, and he was asked, "What is this?" He answered, "Vaporized water," as he saw the steam -- didn't even think "pot."

My own ds is HG+, but not a level 5. I "know" several level 5s online, and it's just clear when one turns up. You see HG+ children fairly often in the gifted circles online, but Level 5 kids really are pretty rate. I think it will become clearer as your dd ages.

And to any newbies out there -- early speech is often an indicator of giftedness, but normal-rate speech doesn't mean the child is not gifted if doing other notable things. My ds didn't speak in 2+ word combos until he was 27 mo -- but did have quite a few sight words, would one-to-one count to 10 by then, etc. So don't decide your dc isn't gifted if not an early talker!

As I understood it--so take this with a grain of salt--motivation is the key difference between levels 4 and 5.

Both sorts of kids can learn pretty much whatever you put in front of them, but level 5s are the sort who are just driven to learn virtually all the time. Level 4s are less self-motivated but just as capable. And level 4s can become level 5s when working on something they care about. Their pet projects transport them into level 5 territory.

As a side note: I always warn against the notion that GT kids don't need to be taught. By definition, they do learn things more quickly and easily than the average kid, and some things they certainly piece out by themselves without instruction. But I worry that this "they teach themselves" idea plays into neglectful teaching situations and lack of challenge. Some GT kids really go like mad on their own, but not all. And even these self-motivated kids are almost certain to hit a point at which they need some help of some sort from an experienced teacher. Granted, that may not happen until graduate school, but I think it will inevitably occur if a kid keeps growing and learning. And most GT kids need teaching long before grad school if they are to keep growing.

Sorry to soapbox you. I just think that this is a potentially dangerous myth about GT kids, and it worries me, so I always try to say something when the subject comes up.

Carry on!

I have the same issues with DS7 and levels, Dottie. I came to the conclusion that he's a level 4 on most things and a level 5 on his pet projects.

Is that what Dr. Ruf would say? I dunno. (I'm not sure I want to know...) But it works fine for me.

I'm not sure I buy the 3 for your DS. 4, okay. 3, not so much...

<cough> Denial! <cough>

There you go! Now I'm back on board!

I think the difference between 4 and 5 is two things:

1) Motivation/Intensity/Drive
and
2) Breadth

So I think a kid can't be a level 5 unless they have #1 in multiple areas. So a kid who performs at level 5 levels in only one area, is still only a level 4.

Again, I know level 5 people and there is an intensity to them that you definitely know when you see it.

So is there some other information that led you to the motivation conclusion? Because I didn't get motivation from Ruf but maybe I just did not read between the lines enough.

I do agree with you on needing to be taught and this is where we were having problems with the level 5 because she makes it out like they just miraculously have the knowledge and no one really has to teach them anything.

Ladybug,

I am fairly new myself and found this site very helpful and I will pass on the information I received from my first post. Please start a separate string so your post does not get lost in the string like this one did. I found it very helpful and people are so thoughtful and welcoming I am sure you will find some useful advise. As for your question about your DD, I just bought and read (For the most part) Ruf's book 'Losing Our Minds: Gifted Children Left Behind'. She gives 5 levels of giftedness and by your post your child appears to be gifted, but you might want to post a longer one telling more about what you have witnessed. Also think back to how she was as an infant, because research shows the importance of this time in your child's life. Did she meet milestones or excel during the first 6 months? If she didn't it does not mean she is not gifted, just points to different levels within gifted.

And above all ... trust your instincts, because no one knows your child better than you do and if you are seeking answers to explain why your child is the way she is ... than I think you already believe that she is gifted.

Katelyn'sMom, Do you have the book or are you just looking at the website? If you look at the book on page 53, it talks a little bit about motivation.



This is part of a much larger paragraph which is mostly in there to suggest that kids in unmotivating environments can end up at a lower level that what they are capapble of, but I read it to mean the motivation is part of what predicts a person's level.

I have a very smart happy-go-lucky kid. I think he could be a level 5 if he was driven to master things, but mostly he likes to hang out, ask questions, and play with his friends. Not that level 5's don't do those things, too, but the ratio of time spent and the intensity of learning are different.

Acs,

Thanks for the quote ... I do have the book (got it a few days ago) and started reading it for the most part. I will go back and really look at that section. I guess I was expecting more description within each level and this is where I was focusing most of my reading. Shame on me! But with this information and what Kriston and others have stated it helps make sense of the levels.

I realize my 26 month old is still too young to get a complete understanding of where she falls in the levels. I know she is HG+. The funny thing is my cousin was selected to take a national test back when we were in elementary school (many many moons ago) and granted this was kids hand selected by teachers which does not mean the absolute brightest kids were considered, but he was selected and was ranked as the 2nd in the nation. The reason I state this is even he is blown away with my DD abilities. So while reading through Ruf's book I am really hoping my kiddo is not a level 5 because level 3 and 4 is still a scary thing to have to consider but level 5 blows my mind! Those of you that do have level 5 kids I send big hugs and hope that you find a path that works for your kid and then publish the secrets to help the rest of us out!!

Before I had my son tested during a time we were thinking of early entry to kindergarten, I thought, after reading Ruf's book "oh, he's definitely a level 3, maybe possibly a low level 4" and i was pleased after reading the book that i could rationalize to myself that he was not a "profoundly gifted" kid, which i considered to be level 5, and yes, scary. His testing came back in the PG range, and so I was freaked out, and also didn't quite believe it. Since he is still only 4, I still don't quite believe it, but I am happy in the knowledge that there are indeed all flavors of gifted, and even though my DS wouldn't look at casual glance to be PG, he has his moments. I found that in learning more about HG kids, I was able to be not freaked out or worried about his PG status. He's still my little pipsqueak, and we'll make do.

Keep in mind that there is very little research or published works on young HG kids, and Dr. Ruf's sample size is small. I found it a wonderful book to introduce me to levels of giftedness, which I didn't know about, and also to read stories that seemed to be about my child. I can see my kid as a 3, a 4, or possibly a 5-to-be, at various times.

I'm so glad you mentioned this. Most all of what I'd read about GT kids says, "they just pick it up on their own." That made me feel like I shouldn't try to teach her anything, like it would be forcing it. But, on the occasions when I do intentionally teach her something, she learns it and seems to love the process of being taught, like it's entertainment.

st pauli,

Maybe by the time my DD is in Kinder I won't be as freaked but most likely even more so because by then we will have to make the strategic moves necessary to ensure some form of happiness in our kiddos education. I read this beautiful article a few months ago written by a mother of an autistic child and she talks about the 5 step process parents go through when discovering their child to be different. Finding that your child is HG+ makes me at least go through similar steps. Shocked but delighted to find I am not nuts for what I have witnessed; shamed and trying to hide her abilities... on and on. I still have not wrapped my head around all of this and the more I read in articles, books and discussion boards the more topics I have not considered arise and fear comes back in force.

The best metaphor I can come up with for this process is the game of chess. I feel my DD is the ultimate game and I have to strategically move the pieces in hopes of ensuring her the best outcome possible. I have always said we will send our kids to public school and now I am just not so sure, but what we chose to do I have no idea. And I know what all the responses will state .. she is too young for you to be worrying about all of this right now. Hey I am a researcher and this is my ultimate project. I want to be as prepared as I can be for the battle we have ahead of us.

Well, now that you mention kindergarten....I admit to having a little freaking out going on right now as we research schools for the fall. I think there will be several waves of freaking out, but i do have to say that they are less severe than the panic I felt when (1) I first read Ruf's book; (2) I read through the kindergarten curriculum when DS was 3 and realized he already knew it; and (3) found out DS's SB-V results. Things seem to get better with time and with more knowledge.

One of the absolute best stress-relievers, which I learned about first on this site, is the availability of homeschooling as a backup plan in case things don't work out in a school situation. You can give individualized instruction, and you know your kiddo best.

The other great thing is the ability to talk things through with folks who have been there before. (thanks everyone here.) And this forum will definitely help you prepare for what's to come. Good luck!

I did record my 17-month old D's progress for what its worth.
At 12 months old she was speaking a dozen words of English and a dozen words of Swedish.
(Her mother mainly speaks Swedish to her I speak mainly English).
At 15 months old her vocabulary was uncountable (unless you specify a certain subject).
For example, on birds she would say jackdaw, crow, duck, owl (and for the correct species)
In comparison the other kids of similar age in her creche were struggling to say "birdie".
She was also using verbs (one word sentences).
This month she is using 2 word sentences correctly.
She's attempting to count (both languages) and to recite abcs.
4 days ago I started her on that Titzer reading dvd course to see what happens.
She seems to love it so far.

If your DD was anything like my DS6 and it sounds like she is the Titzer thing will entertain he for about two weeks. Someone bought my son a leapfrog video called letter sounds when he was about 16 mos. He watched it constantly for a couple of weeks, then promptly sat down and started sounding out words. Once he discovered that he could connect the sounds to read the words he taught himself to read very quickly.

That sounds interesting. We'll give the Titzer DVD a shot. Mr W (12m2w) is enthralled with the letter segments on Sesame Street. His speech is a mash of spanish and english right now.

BWBShari, my DS did the same thing at 19mths w/ the Leapfrog video. After viewing it 3x, he knew most of the letter sounds. He read a Bob book cold shortly after he turned 2. My current 2yr old now knows several of her letter sounds from that video!