Hello & thanks, in advance, for any advice to this newbie. Apologies for long post.

DS2 was given WISC-IV at school in spring 2010. He was 10 yrs, 5 mos. Testing occurred in sessions over approx 3 weeks and school psych administered.

During the testing period (and for entire year), DS was the subject of bullying, likely due to his young age when compared to classmates. He had originally been grade-skipped from K-1 (at the school�s strong recommendation), but was never given an IQ test nor put in the GT program over the years, despite superior class performance & consistent MAP scores of 98/99% in both reading & math. While DS had many school friends until the end of 3rd grade, his 4th & 5th grade experiences were vastly different. While coping with these school pressures during the testing period, he was also faced with the potentially serious illness of a sibling. It was an extremely intense time in our household and in his young life.

The school psych gave our DS2 a 134 GAI, using his VCI of 144 and his PRI of 117. I do not think he was given the other sections of the WISC IV or, if he was, those sections did not appear on the report. At the time, our school district�s GT cut-off was 130 and I was told more than once that DS �barely made it� into the program since his IQ is �just� 134. This year, our district has raised the GT criteria to 133 and there is serious talk of making it 135, due to budget cuts impacting resources.

So here�s my question: Given that DS was in such a stressful environment last year, both at home and school, and since he is borderline-gifted by our district�s guidelines, should we have him re-tested privately this spring, after the one-year waiting period has passed? Paying for a private test would be difficult but we�re willing to do it if there is a decent chance he could score high enough to stay in the program. My impression was that the district�s testing was rather on-the-fly and DS was removed from class whenever the psych had time for him, so perhaps another setting would yield different results?

This year is going much better for DS. Everyone is healthy & we kept DS in 5th grade to align with children his own age. He is much happier now and has made several friends. He continued on to 6th grade math, where he performs at the top of the class (per his teacher) and bullying has stopped because DS is in advanced math & the bullies aren�t. The GT program has also made a huge difference because that teacher is putting forth so much effort to differentiate for him and make it an enjoyable, productive learning year. (He spends at least an hour a day with her, often two.) If he is not allowed in the program next year, it will be a real disappointment to him. He is only now regaining a positive self-esteem, so I�m also very concerned about how his removal from GT would impact that. And he loves everything about the GT program and the kids in it. He has finally found a place where he �fits.�

Any advice is welcome and appreciated. I suppose re-testing is a given, but cost is a significant factor right now, especially considering that he still might not make the cut-off if given a new test.

Given the discrepancy between the VCI and the PRI, and the fact that the coding and processing portions do not appear to have been administered, you might want to ask the school to assess for possible LDs. Ask in writing. They have to evaluate him. They will almost certainly re-administer the WISC-IV with the previously-omitted sections as part of the evaluation, and if you disagree with their findings, you can request a private evaluation at public expense, which they are obligated to provide unless they feel like taking you to court to prove that their evaluation is correct. BTW, you do not have to give them a reason why you believe that their evaluation is incorrect if you disagree with their findings.

You might find out that there are previously unidentified processing issues there when you get a complete eval, and you might find that there are not, but you and they will have a current and most likely more accurate picture of his functioning, which will certainly be helpful in determining the most appropriate placement for him. And you won't have had to pay for a private eval.

Edit: I firmly believe that that "appropriate placement" is in the gifted program, BTW...he has a VCI of 144, for crying out loud.

Thank you so much for the replies to my post! Here is the info on his WISC-IV report, if that is helpful:
Similarities - 16
Vocab - 19
Comprehension - 17
VCI - 144, 99.8% rank

Block Design - 12
Picture Concept - 12
Matrix Reasoning - 14
PRI 117, 87% rank

GAI - 134, 99% rank

So if his GAI is really 136, Dottie, then that would be great news. I'll have to try to figure out how you arrived at that. In seeing these subtest scores, do you still calculate 136?

I must admit that I was not focused on his scores aside from the fact that he could do the GT program and he has been so happy with it. I only revisited all this when I learned that our district may increase entry score beyond his level. Now I have much to learn & some decisions to make. He is such a happy person now and we'd like to keep it that way.

Whatever his VCI is, he won't be in the program if he doesn't meet the overall cut-off. And, generally, I get the impression that we are on the "outs" for pushing (however politely) to have him tested in the first place. We had to go to our district level before it happened, though we did go thru the proper channels for this. It took almost the entire school year to obtain approval for testing.

Dottie, we are in the Kansas City, KS area, USA.
Aculady, I had never really considered DS to have an LD, but that is food-for-thought. He does well at anything he undertakes and never has had any problems in the academic area of his school career - he was at the top of his class, even with the grade skip, but I may ask about that. I'm clearly not assertive enough in advocating for my kids, as I have learned through this experience

Again, my thanks for your time!

Dottie,

I agree that these scores alone are not screaming red flags, but there is a large discrepancy. If the school is looking to deny him access to a clearly appropriate gifted placement solely on the basis of his past testing,where a point or two could be the difference between getting much-needed services and not, I think it is worth it to investigate the possibility that there may be issues that depressed the lower of the scores, especially when doing so would allow him to retest under better personal circumstances without placing an undue financial burden on the family. I would not mention the latter points to the school. I'd just request an LD evaluation. But that is just my take on it.

Hi Jewel,

I'm new to this forum so can't give much in the way of advice BUT I had to post as my dd's (8) scores were so similar to your DS's:

SI 16
VO 19
CO 17
VCI > 144

BD 11
PCn 16
MR 12
PRI 119

GAI 138

I just wanted to say that we have had the possibility of a learning disability mentioned to us too (by the psych after testing last month). HOWEVER, on the recommendation of the psych we have consulted a gifted educational specialist and her first suggestion was for DD to have a 'developmental eye test', which apparently is very different from a regular assessment. She notes that if the eye test flags up a problem then that will very likely be the cause of such a discrepancy between the verbal and visual scores. We're visiting the optom mid Feb so I'll let you know how we get on. The other issue she mentioned was performance anxiety; DD appears to know that verbal is her strength and has gradually become more 'frightened' of other challenges, and consequently avoids them. Apparently she even ran away from the tester at various points. In effect she fears failure so it's easier not to attempt an answer if you're not 100% sure it is correct. Obviouslyy none of the above may be applicable for your DS, but I just thought I'd mention it in case it might be .
The other ladies in here are so helpful - they've been a godsend for me.
We're meeting with the school on Tuesday to try and sort DD's education to 'fit' her a little better. We've been advised all of her 'issues' have come about due to inadequate schooling. It got so bad she even tried to kill herself a year ago, and now, at eight, she cries for several hours every day. Heartbreaking

I so hope you get somewhere with the school situation. Be confident in your assertions - you know your child much better than any school principal or teacher. Easier said than done, I know - I am truly crap at advocating for DD! Listen to Grinity and Dottie, they're pro's at this .
Hang in there,
K xx

Hi Jewel
Welcome. I'm glad to hear that your family is healthy and less stressed. Dcotties news sounds great too.

Any clue as to why the school didn't put him in the gifted program right off the bat? Plain old predijuice? It just seems so odd.

Anyway I would ask the school to retest and also do achievement testing. If the numbers come back over 145 then I would encourage you to apply to the young scholars program.

Love and more love
Grinity

I appreciate the time everyone is taking to help me - Wow!

Dottie - Your observation that his GAI is 136, instead of 134, checks out with me. This would allow him to stay in the program if the bar moves up again! I cannot thank you enough. I'm just hoping there are no other errors in the report that would then skew back to the 134 (or lower). For example, if DS scored lower on one of the subtest scores and the psych simply made a type-o in listing the scores on the report. However, you rightly point out that there is no 134 GAI. I need to think about how to approach the school on this one. I haven't really set foot back in the office since last year - only the classrooms. Thoughts are welcome & appreciated. And, again, thank you for pointing out this important math error to me!!!!

Grinity - Our school does not begin GT until 3rd grade, but the students must be 8 to be tested and are ID'd by end of 2nd grade (something like that because the whole GT placement process is basically a mystery to the parents - very secretive). Since DS was 7 in 2nd grade (due to skip), it's possible that he was overlooked because he was not age-eligible for testing. However, his 2nd grade teacher did once tell me, "He's very smart, but I doubt he's gifted," so I (wrongly) assumed the case was closed. At the start of 3rd, the GT students are all put in one specific teacher's class and track together, so the other teachers are going to assume any GT students are already in the program (except new students).

Last year, a very kind mom with several GT children at school took me aside and told me that my son was obviously GT and that I needed to advocate for him. I barely knew this lady at the time, but she came out of the blue & was so kind (like all of you posters!). Over the year, I followed all the required steps with this lady's help. During the eval & testing process, the school firmly maintained that DS's grade skip was his "intervention" and no other "intervention" was needed. However, there are a few other students who have been grade-skipped (including a few of this nice lady's kids), it was interesting to note that all those students had been tested & ID'd as GT. (DS was never even tested.) The school insisted that his IEP include the disclaimer that his "intervention" had been grade-skipping. However, because DS received no GT support and had no GT peers in his classes, he wasn't really enjoying school that much (even advanced work is fairly easy for him) and he had fewer & fewer friends with the same interests. If this lady had not come forward to help me, having observed my son over the years, I'm convinced he would have simply repeated 5th grade with no GT support from the school. Or we likely would have had to send him to a private school ($$!), though our district is highly rated and generally out-paces the few private schools in the area.

In hindsight, I know that we've failed him as parents in this key area, but - at the time - I knew nothing about GT and thought the school would surely have ID'd him if there was reason to do so.

I have now signed up DS for Explore test, but he won't be able to take it until Jan 2012! I've also signed him up to take a CTY test, but have to schedule time at the testing center. The school sends home periodic notes to GT kids' parents, so I found out about these tests thru the school.

In all my reading/learning, I'm fairly convinced that DS13 is also GT. The school never ID'd him, either. MAP scores are same as DS2, he's in Duke TIP now (eligible to go to summer camps for ACT score last year but cost is prohibitive) and he took SAT yesterday. So he has done fine w/out GT program. However, it IS a wonderful program (once the child gets in) and it would have been a very nice opportunity for DS13.

Your thoughts/advice are welcome, too. I'm somewhat embarrassed to post because all my learning has shown some serious parental failure and we do actually try hard to be good parents.

Katebee - I'm just now seeing your post and really appreciate the insight! Your DD has obviously had a tough time and I feel for her & you. Your situation sounds more difficult than what we have faced and I do hope things will improve.

Thank you for taking the time to post and the developmental eye test is great info. Your DD's optometrist can administer this? DS has had regular eye check-ups thru the years (he's now over 11), so I wonder if an issue would be flagged in a normal eye exam? He is due for another check-up soon, so I can ask the Dr about that. Our school provided no insight regarding DS's scores, aside from some mentions that he just made the GT cut-off. That was brought up more than once in his IEP meeting, but no other insight. At that time, I didn't even know to ask about a wide variance in VCI & PRI scores.

The general wisdom about our school is "you have one card to play" in all the years you are there. Whether you have 1 child or 6, you still only have one card. So I know we've played our 1 card, but we still have a few children to go! I'm trying to tread very carefully while also keeping DS2's interests in-mind. At least he is doing very well this year, is challenged at math & via GT, and has friends. The hardest part for him was having virtually no friends because he's actually very social, enjoys sports, etc.

If you wouldn't mind posting or PM-ing me about what you thought of the eye development exam, I would appreciate it. And, again, thanks for responding to my post.

Like Dottie said, I'd totally agree that a grade skip doesn't take the place of GT placement. It should be in addition to GT placement for a child who needs more than the in-grade GT class.

In regard to your older ds, it is so easy to feel like we've missed things and failed them. From what I'm seeing with dd12 set to enter high school next year, a GT id isn't so important the older the child gets. Appropriate placement in AP or honors classes isn't always contingent on how the child is ided so much as how his achievement scores look. If your ds13 isn't unhappy or failing to learn, I would try to reassure yourself that you've done the best you could with the info you had at the time.

Jewel,

If your older boy is eligible for the Duke Summer programs, he is also eligible for the online and independent study programs, which are less expensive. It is also worth noting that substantial financial aid is available for all of these options if you apply early.

Do you have any idea how low income one needs to be to qualify for financial aid? My dd12 would love to do their marine lab program but it is out of our budget although we aren't so low income (like free lunch eligible) that we generally qualify for much financial aid.

Hi there. My older DD12 was never id gifted until last year... She was tested but it was the cogat and she would miss it by a few points. I finally had her privately tested and she had similar scores to your younger son. They suggested the developmental optometrist who had no idea why I was bringing a child to him that could read well above grade level. However on one of the tests she did much better with Prism glasses and so we are using those at this time. Supposedly they expect it to bring up her PRI score. We will never know as I have no intention of ever testing her again! She does say it seems to make reading a bit easier and we have noticed less silly mistakes in her math when she uses them.

I feel I let her down in regards to her education. I trusted the school system to know what to do. It was not until I started reading etc. that I realized how many things were overlooked by the school system. I did not know anything about Gifted or what it even really meant. I have learned loads reading this board. I still feel guilty and have many regrets. My second one is 2 and she is showing signs of being precocious as well. I had no idea with the first, I just thought it was normal and that the others would catch up. My second will reap many benefits that my first did not. I guess one learns to live with it and not let it get in the way of continuing to do the best we can with what we got. Good luck to you!

From the Duke TIP website: :

To assist families with the Summer Studies financial aid process, we have outlined the steps you need to follow in order to apply for financial aid. Limited financial aid is available for all Duke TIP Summer Studies Programs, so it is important to submit your application promptly. Financial aid is awarded on a first-come, first-served basis to families who demonstrate need.

Financial aid is available only to students and families residing in the U.S., and U.S. tax and income documentation is required. Families might qualify for some degree of financial aid if household income does not exceed:

* $65,000 for a household of two
* $82,000 for a household of three
* $99,000 for a household of four
* $116,000 for a household of five
* $133,000 for a household of six

Families with incomes above these levels will not receive assistance unless they are able to demonstrate extraordinary circumstances. Financial aid recipients will receive aid awards for one term only.

Edit: Oops! This was supposed to be in response to Cricket asking for the income range. Hit the wrong reply button.

Aculady - Thank you so much! We did briefly consider financial aid for Duke TIP due to some significant medical bills over the past year. Normally, our HH income would not meet the guidelines for aid, but it had crossed my mind to apply with the medical bill considerations (and we have decent insurance - cannot imagine what other families must do!). DS1 had some good local opportunities last summer, however, and he is very much a homebody, so I didn't pursue the Duke TIP angle. He is young for his grade & rather shy, as well. We may consider one of the Duke online classes for him this summer, but he is also applying to be a JR TA at a local summer camp (it's a bigger deal than it sounds, for various reasons) and we are also considering a camp at the Kansas Cosmosphere & Space Center. Thank you for the info, however, and your posting + Katebee's is prompting me to consider the LD issue for DS2. It is definitely food for thought & the school had never mentioned it. I appreciate your concern.

Reading thru these posts is so overwhelming - in a good way! Thank you to everyone for your insight & all the info - and especially the encouraging words. Who would have thought that posting on a message board could bring forth such great results? Perhaps I should try it more often! Importantly, I plan to figure out a way to discuss DS2's GAI with the school psych because, thanks to Dottie's observance, it appears his GAI is actually above the potential cut-off for next year. That alone is a huge saving grace. I will post a follow-up to let everyone know what I find out re: GAI. I do understand that the psych is overworked between multiple schools, and mistakes can happen, but I am hopeful that the error (assuming there is one) can be fixed so DS is not at risk of being removed from the GT program. I suppose I would encourage everyone to "double-check the math" - but I had no idea how to do that until now.

Oh dear, don't forget to serve out a big heap of blame/shame for the SCHOOL that has not been getting this right for your kids, while you're considering who should be embarrassed! I too, as well as many other folks have been in the same spot: miserable kid, parent desperate to figure out what is up, finally arriving at possibility of being gifted being some of the issue, and come to find out a lot of this misery could have been avoided. And we are in a good district with good programs, so hate to think about where ds10 would be without that light at the end of the tunnel.

You are right to consider retesting outside of the school if you don't think they are setting things up so your son can be his most successful. Money/absolute necessity is always an issue on this, I completely understand.

Katebee --- so sorry to hear about your daughter's experience with all this, our ds10 was seriously depressed around that age, too, it was very difficult to come to terms with for us, but we are all coping better now. In fact he is laughing and singing and doing most of the things he should as a kid, as well as most of the things he shouldn't. If your daughter is still very sad, I do hope you are working with a counselor to get her on a better track emotionally (and this probably is best done outside the school, I am not sure I'd trust a school to handle such a major issue). Best of luck, hugs to you and her!!

Acknowledging a problem is the first step to overcoming it. So I congratulate you on posting even though it's embarrassing - that shows a lot of strength of character.

Your only error was believing the normal assumption that schools are the experts in educating out children and that they are fairly trying to help each child get the most of of their programs. This makes you naive, not bad.

I was naive too, and I get tremendous satisfaction from posting here and helping other families get over their naivet�. I'll bet that your 'out of the blue' friend had her naive days too.

You are in no way 'too late' for either of your sons, and you are certainly not to late to help any potential grandchildren they may bring you. There is very heavy 'genetic' component to giftedness so start thinking long term now!

Also - lots of us have been in the situation of your friend from 'out of the blue' so thanks for giving us a living example that sometimes it works out to just 'say what one sees.' Please give her a great big thank you from me, ok?

Sometimes I feel that I should keep my mouth shut in 'real life,' because, well, who wants to hear my perspective? So thanks for the encouragement to 'let it flap!'

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Hello, everyone. Following up on my first (& only) post here. Your advice was much-appreciated. For various reasons, we are now seriously considering private WISC IV testing for DS. He is currently in school gifted program, but that may change if new requirements are established due to budget cuts. (Long story)

DS would be eligible for testing as of mid-May, when he will be approx 11 yrs, 6 mos. His current GAI is 134, though Dottie observed that it is likely 136. For many reasons, I have not gone back to the school (yet) to discuss this discrepancy. Frankly, I'm not too confident in info they give me, though I think they mean well overall. Nor was DS given full WISC IV - just VCI & PRI - though I gather those are two most important aspects of WISC.

We live in Kansas City area (USA) and seek someone who is warm & engaging. I read an excellent article by Dr. James T. Webb who stresses the importance of such qualities in a tester. I've also seen Dr. Webb present in-person. Wow, I wish HE was available to test DS! He would be exactly the right kind of tester for any of my kids.

I have checked Hoagies & asked parents here, but have no solid leads. SENG web site lists one Dr in St. Louis, MO, but that's 4 hrs away & I have nothing to go on besides the listing. I would drive 4 hours if nesc, but sure would want to believe the tester was a good one!

(As an aside, DS does not have any vision issues, per optom & he does not believe a developmental eye test is appropriate for DS. This was discussed earlier in the post & I did check it out - thanks to Katebee!)

Any recommendations would be appreciated. And, again, thank you for your time & advice.

A little farther away, but worth his weight in gold:
Edward R. Amend, PsyD - more info �
1025 Dove Run Rd # 304, Lexington, KY
(859) 269-6465 ‎

Especially if you are still worried about the Verbal - Performance spread.

And don't take the advice of a 'straight' optomitrist about developmental optomitrists - they don't speak the same language.

Best Wishes,
Grinity

Don't you dare! I would love to import you to my area just so I could pick your brain. You have no idea how much support you provide to those of us in 'gifted impoverished' areas (by that I mean NO services for GTs.... NONE!). This forum is my lifeline to sanity most days.

Thanks, Grinity. Lexington KY is approx 9.5 hours hours away. Suppose we could try to make a family vacation out of it. I'm hoping someone might have a rec for a Dr just a bit closer to home ;-) But I'll see if I get additional responses here and I do appreciate your post. I'll also look up info on Dr. Amend.

Is there a university near you? You may want to look into that for testing.

That's what we did! 9.5 isn't too bad, actually.

I second Dr. Amend - we live in Florida and came very close to just biting the bullet and driving up to him for testing. He took the time to speak with me on the phone for quite some time and I was absolutely BLOWN away. He SO understood everything I shared with him without having to go into deep explanations. We have very rarely ever found anyone who just "gets it". We wish we lived that closer to him - would be SO worth the drive.