Hi all,

I have a DS10 who was tested at 8 for a variety of reasons, including looking for a possible hidden LD. It was fairly clear to all he was gifted even before testing.

We are toying with the possibility of testing DD8. She is not clearly gifted, but that is ultimately what we'd be looking for. She has been expressing that she is bored at school, not doing the work, etc. Some of it we know for a fact she is more than capable of doing (especially the math).

The school is willing to do the testing, and able to justify it due to the behavioral issues she's been having (not doing work, not really being easy on her teacher, etc.). I think I"m just looking for that extra push of 'why are you hesitating!' :-)

The pros include having a better case for differentiated work and understanding her strengths and weaknesses better.

The cons include a lot of time out of class and the possibility of DD not seeing it as a positive thing (in which case she just won't do it).

But the biggest potential problem is that it could set up a competitive dynamic between the kids. DD is a big comparer, and gets exceedingly jealous easily. I'm worried she's either going to feel terrible when she finds out her scores are lower than her brother's (very likely that at least some will be, he's pretty high on the verbal ability), or that she will make him feel badly about the areas where his scores are lower (also likely, given that his processing speed is average, and I'm guessing hers would be at least high average -- she's quick). She will not be able to see the bigger picture that I see, or that other kids might: she's quick and funny and socially very astute, so even if she's not "gifted" on a numerical IQ scale, she's very smart and she's got a lot of other things to offer. SIGH.

Its not like I'd be pointing out what his scores were or hers, but he knows his, and she'll likely want hers...

Anyone else have to deal with someone like this?

Probably a silly question but do both of your kids already know your son's scores and is their any real reason you have to give specifics to your daughter if its just going to lead to unwanted comparisons?

There are countless stories on these boards about second children who didn't seem to be at a gifted level, who tested in the upper ranges. So that's one reason to go ahead.

Beyond that, I am also wondering how much detail either child needs. Oh, I just saw that your son knows his... in which case, you do have a more complicated situation.

You may wish to share all these lovely things you've said with your daughter (ensuring she knows that she is quick and funny and socially very astute, she's very smart and she's got a lot of other things to offer). You may also wish to begin looking at books and resources such as Gifted Kid's Survival Guide and social thinking (perspective taking) to help assist you in coaching the development of your daughter's self-reflection on her interpersonal skills, as from your post it sounds as though some of her thought patterns are not serving her well.

Some may say that sibling rivalry is related to boundary issues; working on developing healthy boundaries may help head off potential sibling rivalry.

The way I see it you have two independent issues:

1. Should DD8 be tested?

2. How do you deal with the fall out of the results given the different personality characteristics of the children?

The answer to question 1 depends on whether there is a reason to test and whether anything will change for DD if the tests show she is gifted. From your comments you have a reason to test based on the issues she is having, bored at school, not doing the work, not having an easy time with the teachers. If she is having difficulties that are indicators for testing then she needs and deserves testing because it may well change her school experience for the better and avoid underachievement and acting out.

Once she is tested you have to manage the other potential problems. The concern over jealousy or competitiveness shouldn't dictate whether you have access to information necessary to guide your daughter's education.

It may be that the problems you anticipate don't arise. With a clearer picture of your daughter's needs, gifted or not, you can make her life at school happier and that may make her feel better.

Good points above.

Some more thoughts:

1. If jealousy and unhealthy competition are major issues in the sibling dynamic--for whatever reason--obtaining IQ data will not change the dynamic for better or worse, it will just provide a specific catalyst or focal point for it. In the absence of IQ data, some other catalyst or focal point will fill this role.

2. It may be that what is manifesting as jealousy and competition are actually insecurities that might be partially assuaged by IQ/achievement data that documents objectively your daughter's strengths. It may also be that there is a second exceptionality that undermines her confidence in her own abilities, due to the inconsistency between what she feels she ought to be able to do, and her actual performance.

EDIT: Oh, and BTW, I was a younger sibling assumed to be not GT by my parents, until the evaluators for my older sibling asked if there were any other children. I was just much better at masking.

You've received great advice above. I fall in the camp of thinking it's a good idea to test - the testing will give you *information*, and no matter what the actual IQ # that comes out of the testing, you'll come away with a good sense of her strengths/weaknesses and that's useful info no matter how smart or not-so-smart a child might happen to be - and it might be *especially* useful for a child who is clearly not happy in school.

Re the sibling rivalry, fwiw, I have an EG ds and one of my dds has a significantly lower IQ score. The thing is - my dd is *still* subject accelerated and very successful at school. She's an incredibly motivated child and while she might not have the high-level abilities of her brother, and she most likely won't get an SAT score in the same ionisphere he *might* get someday, she is a very happy kid with a lot of her own individual achievements and interests. She's asked me once what her IQ testing numbers were, and the question was specifically in relation to her brother's IQ . I didn't tell her for a very *very* simple reason - if I told her what it was, I think she would take it to mean she couldn't achieve as highly as she is. So instead I simply told her, no, it's not as high as your brothers, but look at all the things you are capable of and have done. I do truly believe she's a really smart girl - not because of her IQ score or in spite of it but because I've spent time talking to her, seeing how she approaches projects at school, seeing how she is passionate about subjects she's interested in, and seeing the high goals she sets for herself.

It's really easy when following these boards and when parenting an HG/+ child to start to think that a lower IQ is something that isn't a good thing - but really, ultimately at the end of the day, it's who we are inside that counts and there are still a lot lot *lot* of smarts inside kids who aren't profoundly gifted, or even moderately gifted.

That said, I wouldn't be one bit surprised if you ended up finding your dd is as gifted or possibly even more so than your ds - lots of kids don't scream "gifted" at the top of their lungs for the world to hear, especially if they are 2e. For that reason alone, combined with the fact that she is complaining about school, I'd test.

Best wishes,

polarbear

It depends a bit how high the brothers score it. Ds5 is a SD lower than ds7 according to the test but he is still well above the 99th percentile so it isn't an issue. I wouldn't tell them the scores just roughly where they are on the curve. I well tell you'd daughter they need to test to work out a better class fit for next year. (Assuming US or at least northern hemisphere.

Great advice above. If you can avoid telling scores, I would test. My 2 DYS DC do not know their scores (they were eerily similar, but with different strengths and relative weaknesses). They both know that they did very, very well. DD knows that she did well enough to get into the G&T program at school. Right now, I do not think they need to know more than that (one WAS higher, but it is literally statistically insignificant, so NO POINT in starting THAT rivalry here! ).

I just have to add that I am so happy to see that there are parents who are this sensitive to how their children will receive their individual IQ scores, and how the sibling dynamics will be affected. IRL, I have, most unfortunately, seen more than one family that overtly pits one child against another, or limits/inflates expectations of one child or another, based purely on IQ numbers.

That you care about this will go a long way toward minimizing the kind of negative dynamic about which you are concerned.

I would test, but not reveal the scores. I'm a firm believer that the specific numbers do not need to be known, regardless of whether you are talking about the WISC or bar exam.

Add me to the list of younger siblings assumed to have lower scores... After testing was done, mine were actually much much higher. She might surprise you.

Yeah well that is just sick.

Sadly, I have seen a great many sick families. It's one of the reasons I enjoy spending time on forums like this--to remind myself of the healthy families.

I agree with handling the testing with tact and also reinforce the idea that though siblings are different, they may or may not have similar IQs (though different profiles). It is entirely likely that one GT kid will have GT siblings.

My brother (older) & I were both tested for school programming. We were not told our scores because at 8 & 10-- honestly the ability to wrap your mind around scores, confidence intervals, achievement vs ability, LDs, and such requires more emotional maturity than most kids that age have. Plus, the dynamic to 'compare' scores is strong at that age, easy enough to remove that temptation. We just both knew we got in to the program and the cut score was X.

That said in High School, my scores were shared with me (not my brothers and honestly we still have not compared...though I was told were are within 5 points of each other, with confidence interval taken into consideration then we have very similar final scores.). due to some LD issues and further evaluation of writing and processing. At that age, it really helped me grasp how my mind worked and helped explain the frustrations I was having.

I will say that my brother appeared classically GT to the max. Me, I was more the dreamy thinker and I always struggled with writing & speed. This was confirmed with testing that those are areas that are vastly different than my IQ- huge discrepancies.

I would do the testing and also be aware that the final # may vary a bit due to different IQ tests, confidence intervals, and such. I also would try to find a way to not share the scores as a flat #- end all be all. Scores are so much more than than---and can really be helpful to look at subscores, processing speed, and comparison to achievement testing.

Thank you all for your responses. As I expected, you helped me resolve to test her -- you're all right, she may surprise everyone!

As for the sibling issue, you're also right. In an ideal world, I wouldn't share the numbers with either of them. And *I* would never share one child's scores with the other. Unfortunately, I have shared DS's scores with him; I did not tell him after we found out, however he finally *asked* me (nearly a year later! I hadn't purposely not shared them, I just ... didn't) and I felt no need to keep them from him. We did talk about the fact that all that it meant was we had affirmation of his areas of relative strength and weakness, etc.; as well as the fact that those numbers mean very little if you don't make effort and all that. I will just have to have a separate conversation with him about being mature and NOT sharing his scores with her. He knows not to talk about it with anyone else, so he'll likely understand... He truly has no frame of reference for what those actual numbers mean or anything else, so likely he won't remember what they are, just that his strength is in the verbal area, and that it was quite high.

The difficulty will arise when *she* finds out I have her results; if she decides she wants to know it will be very hard to keep them from her. If I don't tell her her scores, she'll be mad. If I hide them, she'll find them, if she really decides she wants to know (she is highly persistent.. it'll serve her well someday! .. unfortunately she's also the ultimate sneak, be it treats or whatever else she wants). Likewise, if she decides she wants to 'compare' she'll hassle DS until he gives up *something* (as I said, it won't be a number, b/c he won't remember them). As several folks alluded to, she's got some other issues going on (we are aware, and hence the desire to be extra sensitive to all this!). All that said, I"m not sure how comfortable I am telling her that I won't tell her, either, if she asks point blank. You all think I shouldn't?

I suppose I can overthink all of this until the cows come home -- its not going to make any difference how many bad scenarios I envision. :-) Thank you ALL on the advice to go for it anyway (you're right, if its not this to be competitive/jealous about, it'll be something else).

Oh, and just fyi, we are pursuing therapy for her. Both kids actually. Different reasons. DS more just to help him with strategies for dealing with relative weaknesses (if anyone wants to chime in on issues arising with a significantly lower processing speed -- DS's is over 60 points lower than his verbal, which is his highest score), asynchronous development and feelings of loneliness (he's noticing that other kids don't always understand what he's talking about - part of that is truly his level of comprehension is higher, but some of it is his tendency toward stream-of-consciousness speaking, and starting a story halfway through! LOL). For DD its figuring out how to get her to accept help with her extremely strong feelings and find strategies that she'll accept for managing them. I've tried (but deep breaths are "for babies" as are workbooks on anger management and negative thinking; meditation is "dumb"). She's highly volatile - has been all her life, and a very, very negative thinker. Definitely a strong willed, persistent kiddo. In her better moments I can talk with her about how so many of her personality traits will serve her well in life (and I do, I really do!) and even joke with her about 'using her powers for good'. I want to help her before any even more negative patterns set in, and before puberty rears its ugly head. :-) If anyone knows of a good therapist in the Boston area (especially someone with experience with gifted kids) - let me know! Message me or respond here.

Oh, wow. I have one of these kiddos...and we've been joking about her "using her powers for good" for years. Sure we aren't raising the same child???

I have a very strong-willed, persistent child too, but it's been pretty easy to keep her scores a secret from her. If you were very worried, you could put them on your computer and password-protect them. We have a lot of sibling rivalry here, and one child did score higher than the other. For that reason, I plan to never disclose. My parents never disclosed their children's scores even though we were all tested. Unfortunately, two of us tested into the gifted program and one did not. I am not kidding when I say that this still comes up today. I would be very careful.

How about just not telling her she's having an IQ test? We didn't use that terminology when we tested either of our boys. Instead we told them they were going to be given tests to show how they learn best, so that we and their teachers could help them the most.

I would agree with presenting it as a test to see how she learns best, which is how I generally present it to my examinees. But I also acknowledge that it is, indeed, what is known as an IQ test, if they ask, which the brighter ones often do--but so much more than a singular measure. I also talk about individual variation, and the assessment's primary value as data that helps one to understand oneself, so as to maximize the opportunity to fit one's setting to one's strengths.

If you are misplaced in life, you will not reach your full potential, even if you have a very high IQ.

I think if you are wondering just do the test, kids seem to enjoy it and it will stop you having sleepless nights.

re comparisons - no harm in telling kids they scored the same IMO, or saying they were tested on diff tests therefore the results are not comparable.