So, I was in communications class today and I was supposed to write a topic on the board that I wanted to speak about. I chose gifted children....specifically how they are typically underserved. Someone laughed in class.....come to find out half of my class thinks Gifted people don't really exist. The majority of the rest of class thought gifted meant that people had a lower than average IQ. I must have been living in a bubble.....of course it is a community college. Are people jealous or something because that would be ridiculous. There is so much pressure and worry involved with being gifted. Let's not even mention the doubt, boredom, and loneliness that can come with it also. I am the only person surrounded by people who don't believe in giftedness?

We need to consider ourselves like any 'identity group' and seek to win the hearts and minds of our neighbors. After all, if the families believe that the money is worth spending to accomidate one's town's young gifties, then the schools will surely follow.

"Gifted" is one of those words that means different things to different people, so it's best to never use it without checking to see what your listener thinks it means. There truly is no universally accepted meaning of 'Gifted.'

Think of how women suffered doubt, boredom and loneliness as their own private individual 'issue' before the Women's Movement. Then women started talking to each other, and found out that many of their issues weren't 'their fault' but a refection of the culture at that moment. Then women started to change the systemic forces that were anti-female AND to win allies among men so that there is a greater understanding of the variety of human needs. I'm not a huge fan of every single change that has come along with the Women's Movement, but when I look back at how things were when I was growing up, I realize that some basic things that really needed to change, have changed for the better.

Really, when IS the last time you heard a joke about how terrible women are at driving? I just realized that as a child, not a day when by without this sort of 'humor' and now I can't remember that last time I heard someone make this sort of joke. And much worse things were said as well.

We have a very long way to go before we can be surrounded by people who understand giftedness and value each young life, including the young Gifties, but perhaps we can make change at the same rate as the Woman's Movement did? I am sure that all the people who heard you speak from your heart are changed, at least slightly. In the beginning it will be hard to notice a difference, and then a critical mass will be reach and 'Wow' it will be as though it was always like this. Our grandchildren won't believe for a second what we went through. Hummmmm.

Grinity

Disclaimer: My politics are my own, and in no way represent the views of all of us.

They represent some of us though.

Well put.

Thanks....it does help to hear it sometimes. I actually plan on teaching the gifted and hopefully I will oneday open a school for the gifted...actually I want most of the children to be from broken homes or low incomes. I think that would help in many ways. I have noticed that most of the so called gifted schools in the area take mostly children from middle to upper-class income levels. What I gathered from comments today was many people beleive the gifted are just from "good" families who had the means to teach their children or put them in nice preschools. So, the class thought the gifted are somehow just rich people trying to escape the regular schools. I haven't actually spoken yet, I just got to choose the topic today. I am hoping to inform others in my class.
Haha my boyfriend tells me women shouldn't drive all the time:) Of course he is just trying to annoy me. I just tell him men shouldn't open their mouths:) We enjoy pestering each other. He knows people played the "you're just a girl" card on me alot when I was a kid so he thinks it will annoy me now; too bad I am an adult now, right:)
I do think there are so many aspects of the term gifted. I actually think that it might be a better idea if children had an easier way to advance based on level of ability rather than age. I know if I had had that opportunity I would have graduated by 12:)But it was hard to skip grades in my school system.
I remember in 6th grade I used to race this boy next to me doing classwork. That was the only way we could make it interesting. Another boy would try to race with us, but he would mess up a lot. My teacher separated all of us so we wouldn't be a bad influence. The boy's mom still hates me. She seems to blame me because her son got lower grades. I was just a kid though. I didn't try to get him to race with us to finish first. But his mom even makes comments to my mom about it now, 16 years later, and has said mean things about my daughter not being "bright". I guess my point is that I am not sure there is any way to not only help gifted children advance but to also make every other child and parent happy, without separating the gifted. I don't know...don't hold me to this post. I am tired and rambling. I guess I am just brainstorming. I really would like to figure out a way to make as many people as possible understand and enjoy learning instead of worrying what the person next to them is doing and how that makes them feel:)

Well, I enjoyed reading your ramble Paynted28.

I agree, 'separating the gifted' does seem tempting, maybe even from the side of folks who aren't gifted, but then again as Grinity points out, probably the only way to really move forward on an issue is to keep more contact between different groups rather than less...

It is shocking to find that some folks don't necessarily even acknowledge the existence of this entire group of people! Ack.

Paynted28 - have your read 'Genius Denied?'

It's pretty interesting stuff!

I'm looking forward to telling the whole world about your school when it opens.

Also check out: http://www.davidsonacademy.unr.edu/?NavID=11_0

Smiles,
Grinity

I was wondering if you have found books for your research?
I am new learning about this I found some real eye opening info.

Teaching kids in the regular classroom - a gifted teacher went to a gifted seminar and learned a different approach. She pretested the kids on vocabulary and found they all score A. She then realized she had been teaching her gifted class much of what they already know.

I think it also says this is the same book.
Who learns the least in regular classrooms? the most capable.

This really hit home with me because my son is the top student in his class. He probally is the most capable and eager to learn and is getting less opportunity.

Please keep us updated. I would like to know the classes reaction when you present your report. good luck.

"actually I want most of the children to be from broken homes or low incomes."
I remember reading an article, a few years back, about why low income & minorities tend to score lower on IQ test.
It seemed to say that the verbal language of the tests were more directed to the white, English, speaking, upper middle class.
Types of examples it listed: comparing a crock pot to a roast OR waiter to restaurant
Lower income children were less likely to have seen a crock pot, go out to restaurants and therefore less likely to get those questions right.
It stated that background and home situation are allowed to be taken into consideration by the tester, but very often it does not happen.
It went on to state that the gifted low income-minorities would benefit the best from gifted services, because they are the least likely to get support from home.
But all too often they don't get services because the family does not have the $ to test and if they do get tested they start off with a disadvantage.
I found this article very interesting & I wish I would have kept it.
I'll Google around and see if I can find it again.

I will also add that I think that another problem many low income gifted children face is their parents and community.
My brother is low income & has 5 kids. Last year he was asked, by his school, to test 1 of his children for giftedness his reply was "what for? she's doing fine its X & Y who need extra help, not her" He blames the school for the fact that 2 of kids are struggling and yet complains if he has to help them with reading or homework. His opinion is that it's the schools job not to teach his children, not his.
I'm pretty sure his daughter would have made into the gifted program, but he refused to allow testing because she's doing fine and she would get made fun of if she got into the "nerd program"..his words not mine.
How many gifted children are being left out because their parents and community members think that being smart is not cool and that mediocrity should be the goal?

As someone who grew up un-IDed and generally under achieving, thinking about this can make me lose sleep. I have great parents that are GT to some degree too, but they knew nothing about this world and just thought I was really high maintenance and emotional. It is far too easy to slip through the cracks.

Me too! I just thought that it was normal for kids to want the tags cut out of their shirts and complain about their sock seams.

Of course, this begs the question of what it takes to 'make me lose sleep.' Truth be told, things that don't seem to bother other people bother me quite a bit! Am I right?

Grimity

Lots of people here are helping "the unfamiliar with gifted" by just being apart of this discussion group.

All I have learned has helped me be more accepting of my children. My DD is very sensitive to smells, turtle necks, light and pants around her waist. (It sounds a little funny to even list) I used to think she was being too fussy, but now I understand her more. I have so much yet to learn, but I think I've become more open-minded.

I want to thank all of you for your support and information. I have really been in a better mood since I joined this forum a couple days ago. I have even been more open in public. All the sudden I have started answering and asking questions again instead of just trying to blend in. It helps to know how many people are out there you think the same and want the same things for the gifted.

I too grew up in a rough part of town. I was the only child in elementary that was sent to gifted class twice a week. I thank my mom for the effort....she actually had to drive me back and forth to a different school just to attend the class. I remember many children who probably would have benefited from a gifted class, but the parents always stood in the way. My family and one other family in our neighborhood were the only two to have all graduated high school. I can honestly say I knew more gifted children in my "bad" neighborhood than at the optional high school I attended. Knowledge is considered taboo in some lower income neighborhoods. Even if the parents want what's best, the children often fight it because they don't want to feel uncomfortable. It was and is a sad thing to see. But I do have hope it can be fixed.

Wow Paynted28 - I'm really glad to hear this and want to accuse you of having a great spirit! Look how little it took for you to get to a place where you are willing to take off the mask and be yourself in a much deeper way than last week!

I remember when my son 'outed' me to myself, I arranged to sit down with my few best local friends and 'tell them' about how I am actually really unusually smart, how I mistakenly thought that I had to choose between closeness with other humans and being my sparkling self, and apologize for trying to hide myself from them. Each one laughed - 'You thought you were hiding it?' They had known all along! All that fruitless and wasted effort. When I realized that my son was 'watching me' and needing for me to model some honest self appraisal and self acceptance I had to start describing myself in ways that made me cringe by reflex on the inside - I had wasted so much energy trying to blend in and not be detected!

I still have my highs and lows, but it's nothing like what it was before I faced this part of myself!

Also - through my work, I come in contact with many families who are poor. I see the whole range of giftedness among my families. It's so much fun to 'see' folks who are also trying to hide, and to experience the joy when they can sigh from finally being noticed for at least part of who they are. I don't think that gifted children deserve to be accomidated because they will 'grow up and cure cancer' (although that would be nice) - I believe that they deserve to be accomidated because that's the decent thing to do! We'll get there....


((Hugs))
Grinity

I love this attitude. It is the number one reason people stay poor. They make excuses for themselves and come up with bizarre motivations for others' actions.

Here is an example.

When I was 7 and 8 I played on the top football team for my age group.

We had a mix of kids from different groups. I was the only nerd and often read other stuff while waiting for my mom to pick me up after practice. Most of the other kids had to read the playbook and memorize it or show they knew it. So we all read. It was pretty funny to see these little kids running around with notebooks full of laminated pages.

I got to be friends with one kid, a gifted athlete I call Prez. Prez just happended to be black.

One day Prez asked me to teach him to read. Prez was a very smart kid and by the end of the season, he was reading pretty good. I don't think I was a great teacher - he was just sharp!

One night his dad came into his room and asked what we were doing. "Austin is teaching me to read Pop!" Prez said.

His dad then went nuts. "What do you @&@&@&@& want to learn to read for? You gonna #&#&#&#&# be better than your folk!!? !@!@%!%@ "

You get the drift.

One of my roommates from college was from the Valley. Rio Grande valley. When he was in Jr High and HS he would get beat up by other kids for being too smart. This is a common event in Mexican areas.

The reason many gifted leave the public schools is so they don't get beaten up!!!

The Rich vs Poor argument is used to distract people from the very real power of choice that they have to make their lives better. At its root it tells people they are powerless to change things and switches the blame from themselves, their parents, their families, and their communities to others who, in reality, do not accept that they are powerless. It allows them and their community leaders to shirk responsibility for their lives. As a corollary it also places a lot of power in the hands of those who can get others to agree that they are powerless.

For kids from broken homes and poor areas, you have to target the parents and the group norms, not the kids. Once one parent or grandparent is motivated, then the rest is easy.

IMHO, kids need to be screened by Doctors and Nurses for GT just like they are screened for other things and parents given information to help them make decisions. For every parent, the need for a good education should be emphasized as much as immunizations.

Oooh - I like this!

Maybe it's just me, but I absolutely wouldn't trust doctors to make these sorts of judgments. And I say that as the wife of a doctor. I do think the educational system could do a much better job of screening and accommodation. But I don't think that shifting this task to another profession (especially an already overburdened profession) is the answer.

I dunno. Pediatricians already ask all the "Are they doing X?" type questions to screen for delays. That seems to be a frequent point at which parents get the idea that these kids are more than a bit ahead of the curve. My pediatrician "diagnosed" DS8 as HG+ at 15 months old when DS was naming parts of the body using the official medical terms like clavicle and knew all the colors in the big crayon box.

It doesn't seem like a big stretch. Granted, however, I have a ped that is really on the ball...

I'll add that peds have two other things going for them. Most are pretty bright themselves, and they have no specific axe to grind about education. For teachers, IDing a GT kid means more work for them. For a doctor, it's not necessarily anything more than something to write on the chart. It seems like a more neutral forum.

Yes, but when the ped realizes your kid can run intellectual circles arround their kid, they may not longer be supportive. Especially if you are approaching ped for an OT or psychological referral. (I think I need a new ped but keep putting it off until a crisis moment.)

I am snowbound and cranky today.

Ped are bright and they expect their kids to be bright too. Peds have succeeded in making it through the "system" and want their kids to be the best too.

Maybe that's a "nicer" response. Still cranky here.

True. But that's always a risk no matter who is looking for giftedness. You run the same risk with a psych, too.

I'm not saying a ped is a totally neutral forum. There's no such thing, of course.

I see your example as more of a cultural issue than just rich vs poor angle. Though Texas is a tri-culture; the Hispanics and Blacks were the minority and lumped together under the separate but equal laws. I am not certain of the Black culture in reference to the above example but the response you received from your friend's father is very similar to Hispanic culture. You are to be happy with your place and not push to better yourself. If it was good enough for your grandparents and us than it is perfectly fine for you. (And if anyone hasn't seen "Real Women have Curves" I highly recommend it. It is a great example of the 'typical' Hispanic culture and a girl of intelligence who had to battle her mother to simply go to college. Hispanic culture is all about family extension and is why many of them live with multiple families under one roof. (Not that that part was relevant but I find the culture interesting and love the idea of extended network all under one roof.)

So when reading your example I found it shocking to be from a Black family and granted I am being general in my statements to the point of stereotyping which I hate, but the Black culture has come from a great deficit and have had to literally break the chains and build from there; so having the attitude of good enough is interesting.




I don't agree and find this argument too simplified and think culture is a huge part of it, not just the Rich vs Poor. It is bred in us and isn't exactly the easiest thing to overcome. But you are correct in that the target for change has to be the grandparents and parents but it definitely will not be easy. I see it more as a pebble tossed in the pond with small ripples, not giant waves such as you suggest. Winning over a parent/grandparent would perhaps open the eyes of the family for one child but not the entire community.

I don't know. Our pediatrician pointed out to us when DD was 4months old that she definitely was doing things for her age that were very unusual (to the point that she'd never seen other kids DD's age do). All our pediatrician visits from then on have just reconfirmed this.

Maybe this is an usual example but I'm VERY glad our pediatrician said that to us. I think keeping in mind that DD could possibly be gifted made worry less about somethings and give us more confidence in others. For instance, it was helpful for me to know that it's not uncommon for gifted kids to sleep less or for them to be active non-stop during the day. It also gave me more confidence to follow her lead on things (like letting her dress herself) at a younger age than I would think of doing that otherwise.

I can see how it could go the other way where parents would assume their child is gifted and push them more but that's never been our intention. We used to go to the pediatrician's office with a long list of questions because there was so many things going on with DD we didn't understand. After doing more research into giftedness I realized that maybe some of things weren't as crazy as I had initially thought. I really helped to set my mind at ease.

I've said this before, and I know several of you disagree with me, but let me say it once more.

Doctors are experts in medicine. They spend years training in that subject matter. They are very knowledgeable in that field. Giftedness and gifted education is simply something that is not now taught in medical school. It's not something pediatricians know anything about unless they've researched it on their own for their own purposes. They are by no means experts in that field. They aren't even experts in child development. They know just enough to be able to spot a problem, and in most cases they'd refer a problem to a specialist rather than dealing with it themselves.

So if they give their opinions, they are lay opinions, not expert opinions. Now, I have nothing against people giving lay opinions, but in the context of a doctor's visit, people are going to give the doctor's opinion far more weight than it deserves. And we are going to have some (but obviously not all) pediatricians giving awful, ill-informed, and totally inappropriate advice and parents taking that advice as absolute truth.

I think it's wonderful that some of you have gotten good advice from your pediatricians on this topic. But I am only too aware of the terrible advice pediatricians often give on topics that are outside their area of expertise.

Okay, rant over.

Our experience is that teachers generally respond with "oh, you think your child is gifted, well I will spend the next year trying to prove to you that they aren't".

While doctors generally respond with "well, of course they are gifted, I don't need any testing to tell me that, you only need to spend 5 minutes with the child !".

We have even had one doctor tell us "like always recognise like", meaning that gifted always recognise other gifted (secret language maybe). Yes, he was an odd fellow, a senior paediatric neurologist, but he got on wonderfully with our son.

Yet to meet a teacher who doesn't throw the pysch report to the back of the desk never to be seen again.

I agree with no5no5 about the doctors. However, that is an excellent point Jennie72 about like recognizing like.
I know someone, not a doctor, who is gifted, has a highly gifted husband and 3 gifted kids (teens), who recognized things in my DS long before I did. I would mention something he did and she would say "of course he can do that!". It is pretty funny.

I think I agree that doctors probably aren't prepared to accurately "diagnose" giftedness...not because they can't but because they don't really learn much about it. But I like this. How often do gifted people have the chance to step in anymore and say "I can do this without education." Back in the day I think many people who ran our country and got ahead would be considered gifted in today's world and few of them had a high school education much less a college degree. ex. Abraham Lincoln. But now college is so important for almost any field and let us face it.....many gifted don't ever finish school. I am finding it hard in college now after being out of school for almost a decade because I am absolutely bored with the assignments. I think helping to identify gifted children could be something that could inspire many gifted students to finish college. I for one am planning on spending my life looking for a better way to test for giftedness, to bring awareness to the cause, and even if only one child at a time build confidence in children who need to be recognized and helped. We should all come together and find ways to solve these problems. Maybe in solving them we can level out the emotions behind the subject and find a way to all get along. Maybe by solving these problems we can not only help the gifted find joy in school again but also help every other student find a love for learning.
I think there are a lot of factors that play into why giftedness is not accepted in many families. I have seen it in every race and on every economic level. I think many of the gifted are shy. Some are labeled bad kids because behavior issues that sometimes follow the ability. I think the most important factor that desperately needs to be corrected, is that the parent no longer feels the need in most cases to be in charge of a child's education. When a child is behind or causing problems, somehow it becomes the schools responsibility to make corrections. Parents have to be given and have to take more control over what their children are learning, at what pace they are learning, and who teachers them. We cannot decide that a school is just a place to send our children while we are work. I see this happen way too often. I have seen parents cuss out teachers and faculty because their child failed. When the parent is asked about what their child should have been learning, the parent has no clue. We have to change this American mentality that it is the school's job to raise our children.
I do think that more priority should be put on identifying the gifted at a young age. I also think that a few minutes with a doctor won't cut it. I think observation over a period of time is key...much like how ADHD is diagnosed. It still has flaws but it is a better start. I would like all pre-k to attend summer day camps in small student to teacher ratios. Then we group this with parent interviews and psychological testing. Each group attends a week or so and at the end a full report is drawn. If a child shows the ability to learn quickly or manipulate their environment in a way that may point to giftedness than they should be enrolled in a gifted magnet school......these schools I think should also have room for children with autism. I think these groups need to at least be taught together for periods during the day. (that's a whole other subject for me...I could write a book on) Then once enrolled the children are observed and tested for another 3 years...including children in regular public schools to help identify anyone who was missed or who had been drilled by parents to do well but really couldn't handle it. Finally, I think schools and programs for the gifted have to extend all the way through high school. I know once my gifted programs dropped off my involvement in school and my grades did as well. I usually sat in class and played with silly putty or read. We have to find a way to bring awareness to get something in place that will help determine who needs help. We have to find more funding and we need good representatives. I know cancer and heart disease need hollywood support, but my argument is that if we can fix the problems in our education system then we are more likely to find cures and solutions for the problems in our world. I do agree... the gifted always recognize the gifted. I think that is why I feel my purpose is to help find solutions. I think the gifted adult community needs to come together to make sure the next generation does not face the problems of our generation.
Sorry, if this reply is filled with grammatical mistakes. I have trouble writing and reading when I get hyped up about something:)

If doctors can be trained to recognize atypical development on the left side of the Bell Curve, it seems like they could pretty easily be trained to spot it on the right side. (Especially since many already are spotting it...)

I hear what you're saying about people giving too much weight to what doctors say, no5no5. And there's no guarantee that any screening by anyone is going to be perfect or all-encompassing. Mistakes are bound to happen. Nobody's neutral. etc. etc.

But doctors see a lot of kids, and they already ask the right sort of questions. It doesn't seem a big leap to add giftedness to the list. It would be another case of referring the family to a specialist in the area, not of giving extensive advice. I don't see a problem with that approach. After all, most teachers are laypeople in the area of gifted education, too, and they're giving extensive advice...

<shrug> It's not something I'm going to work hard to make happen or anything. But it seems like it could work pretty efficiently.

Sure, they could be trained to do it. They're smart people. They could be trained to do anything. But they haven't been. And, frankly, their brains are packed so full of warning signs and treatment strategies and whatnot that none of them know all of what they should know. I wouldn't add a single additional burden, even if it were possible to waive a magic wand and teach all the doctors in the country how to recognize potentially gifted children. If I could waive that magic wand, I'd teach educators how to recognize them. Giftedness isn't a medical problem; it is an educational issue.


Eh. DD's never seen a doctor who asked appropriate questions of her development. We've seen doctors who were hugely impressed for no apparent reason (as when DD said "no way" when the doctor asked if she would open her mouth at her two-year checkup) and doctors who were inappropriately worried (as when a nurse-practitioner spent the whole of DD's one-year checkup running down the list designed for three-year checkups and then giving up when I pointed out her mistake and she couldn't find the appropriate list).

I guess I don't need to say that I see huge flaws in both the medical and educational systems. I think both need a lot of work. And I don't think that shifting the burden from one failing system to another would help.

I hear you. But I guess I wasn't thinking of shifting the burden, so much as adding another way to figure it out to what's already there. I don't see schools stopping the process. But more pre-screening to help clueless parents (speaking as one who was!) seems like a good idea, failing systems or no...

I get the sense that you're thinking of something way more extensive than what I'm thinking of. All it would take is a sheet with checkboxes, much as they already use to detect delays. That doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

Of course, I've never had someone use the wrong checklist with my child...

It wouldn't have been so funny if I had actually been concerned about her development, but I'll admit that I got a big laugh out of it at the time. Does my baby ride a tricycle? Dress herself? LOL

I guess I just don't see the benefit of taking up the time of doctors to run down another checklist, particularly when there's no checklist that I know of that can accurately identify gifted kids. And I can see the cost in terms of time and money as well as in the misidentification (both under and over) that would inevitably happen.

I agree with this also.

If a Dr. recommends a psycologist, insurance will usually pay for it.
I can't begin to imagine how many mothers would be pushing their toddlers to show off in front of the Dr., so they could get a free IQ test.