(I hope this post is not against the user agreement. I did check the FAQs, and it seemed like it would be okay.)

I know I am not the only one here who has been following/involved in the drama over on mothering.com. I was deeply saddened at all of the negativity directed toward those of us who post on the gifted forum there, and I am very disappointed that they have now eliminated our ability to discuss it altogether.

I don't want to rehash any of the discussion that has gone on over there, but I am just struck because I think this is the first time I have really experienced hostility just because of the label "gifted." I wonder why this happens, and what we can do about it (besides shutting ourselves back into the closets from which we've reluctantly emerged).

Any thoughts?

I have been a member over there for years and have mostly been a lurker in that forum. IMO, I prefer to post and share here. I will most likely just delete my link to that forum. I don't think that we should do anything---there are a lot of people who will always think that the term "gifted" is elite and treat those who use it negatively. I think that's the best part about this community--Gifted is actually in the title of the forums. If someone doesn't like the term then they just don't post here.

I didn't catch that anyone even alluded to this forum over on MDC although I did post one or two responses on the long thread in Q&S before it got locked. My user name is different over there, though, so you might not recognize me .

You're not hard to figure out. No, I don't think anyone there mentioned this forum.

I guess I am just very disappointed because a lot of people (including moderators) have been expressing their feelings that those of us who post in the gifted forum over there are trying to separate ourselves from the rest of MDC, that we incorrectly think other people cannot relate to our problems, that we think we are better than others, etc., etc. I mean, I know that there are crazy people out there, and I know to take those crazy comments with a grain of salt. But these are intelligent, thoughtful women who are committed to inclusive, open discussion. Women who, as members of the attachment parenting movement, ought to know what it feels like to be marginalized.

I just feel like if people like that can't accept the fact that we exist without having their feelings hurt or accusing us of being elitist, it's hopeless.

So I guess I am hoping there is some way to overcome this. I don't want to isolate myself away from the non-gifted world. But I also really dislike the idea of going to a place that is all-inclusive except for gifted issues.

I've mentioned this line over a dozen times... but it always seems to fit. In the Aug something 2007 issue of Time (maybe newsweek) - cover story on GT and obviously lots from the Davidsons... The author makes the following observation... we all don't think if we put out a hoop and practice hours on end that we will ever be Michael Jordon but when it comes to intellect and learning... we as a society are threatened and uncomfortable with the idea that we all aren't equal.

I am seriously considering a return to schooling myself for a doctorate in rhetoric. While it will have to fit the program/professors... I would LOVE to continue the research out their about our anti-intellectual culture. Specifically, if you even collect communications from schools and libraries how little there is in the way of praise for real accomplishments. The number of anti going back to school messages I've found this past week - even one in a public library one pager.

In the end, it isn't hopeless - I don't think much has changed in terms of gt dynamics in the last 30 years. one can only hope that a race for new energy or climate protection will be our sputnik (sp) and herald in a new time of rejoicing in another intellect. Until then, stay here. Who cares if new diapers make it possible for people not to potty train until their kids are 8 ;-)

That's a good point but I guess you won't be able to share it as the whole board now seems to be locked down there.

I figure the sentiment that gifted needs are elitist is always going to be there on MDC. It has always been there. I thought a peace had been reached with the separate forum but I should have known it would resurface again.

While stand alone boards like this are nice, I also recognize that many people will first reach out within a community they are already a part of. MDC has a lot of bright interesting parents and I hate to see the gifted forum go or be mutilated to the point where it no longer can function as a community.

Tolerance is only skin deep. Those who are different in fundamental ways are used as whipping boys to build group unity.

Its a deep part of many psyches. I think its built in to much of the gene pool.

Even in intellectually based cultures, such as medicine, the researcher or practitioner who finds a new and better way is frequently denigrated if not ostracized. Its a combination of individual rigidity, group reinforcement, and ostracism.

The treatment treatment of Ignaz Semmelwies is an excellent example.

I see the same kind of lockstep thinking in many of the clients I work for - the adherence to an idea when demonstrably better methods are available.

Another example is the Stanford Prison Experiment .

Gifties need to understand human individual and group dynamics in order to protect themselves. Just like one would not want to walk around at dark in certain areas, there are certain cultures one does not walk around in with your brain hanging out, either.

I've also been following the events over on MDC. It makes me very sad. I find it particularly sad that one poster who is very new to MDC seems to have a vendetta against the parents who post in the gifted-child forum there. I had to stop looking because the hostility from that one poster in particular and from the moderators there was making me feel ill.

I really don't understand why people who don't need the gifted-child forum there are so angry about it. I don't use many of the groups there, but I would never dream of questioning their right to exist.

In a way, it reminds me of our current national uproar over healthcare. The loudest--and quite often, the most irrational--voices drown out all of the logical, thoughtful comments from people on either side of the issue.

That kind of anger just makes me ill, whatever the context. I keep hoping to grow a thicker skin, but I never seem to quite be able to do so, and I'm always surprised anew when it erupts. The giftedness issues at MDC just hit particularly close to home for me.

In the past there has been quite a bit of the theme of "I was in the gifted program and it was a joke and it just made me feel like a freak other kids hated" sort of posts. It is like the entire validity of the idea and treatment of giftedness is summed up in what happened in somebody's probably not very well designed pullout program in 1980. This sort of thing has made me wonder if in some places and at some times actually more resentment about giftedness has resulted from programs that are mostly addressing upper middle class bright kids for special treatment.

Have you ever read The Trouble with Physics (Lee Smolin)? It's really two books in one. Most of the book is a great discussion about the current state of theoretical physics (TP). He discusses the dominance of string theory and the near-exclusion of other approaches in TP. He argues that progress in TP is being retarded by an unwillingness to allow different approaches.

The last 4-5 chapters are all about sociology and how it contributes to the problems described in the first part of the book. He also touches on the fact that these problems plague many other fields.

One of his major points is that intelligent, creative people face huge obstacles because:

1. Young researchers are pushed to follow the programs of senior researchers and are discouraged from pursuing their own ideas;

2. If you want to get an academic job in TP, see point number 1 for the correct course of action;

3. If you want to get a grant in TP, see point number 1 for the correct course of action;

4. If you want to get tenure in TP, see point number 1 for the correct course of action.

He talks about herd behavior and how it's having a serious negative impact on progress in his field. Simply put: individuals complain about the state of things in the field, but everyone seems to be powerless in the face of the group.

One of his key points is that there are two kinds of scientist: the one who has creative, new ideas (a seer), and the one who's less creative but more technically adept and can work through the details of the new ideas and push them forward (the master craftsman). He argues that both types are needed but only the latter ones are tolerated now (well, in 2007 when the book was published).

Seems OT, but I think the hostility to the gifted forum on MDC might be related to this idea. I also think that people are mostly only allowed to be different if their differentness is more-or-less the same as everyone else's, if you see what I mean.



Val

Yep, I've seen that discussion. I'm mostly a lurker there so I didn't post anything but I sure did feel sick to my stomach reading a lot of the comments.

I also didn't get whole cutoff with child? Apparently we're supposed to turn a blind eye when toddlers and babies are clearly advanced and just wait until elementary school before we are allowed to realize they're gifted? Sigh...


I think this very well might be the case. I have a friend of mine who found an article about some school that started gifted programs in kindergarten. She was going on a rant about how "wrong" this was. Here's the kicker. She's gifted. She doesn't have any kids yet so I couldn't help but think just wait until you have kids and then you might very well be changing your tune... But I do agree. I know from my own experience, many time these half-hearted pull-out programs can do more harm than good.

Yep, I've read it... It's an interesting read and I think it is pretty applicable here. Although I do have to say Smolin is a bit biased because of the whole war between String Theory and Loop Quantum Gravity. ;-)

Hi Val, sounds like an interesting book, I just question the idea that there was a time where more 'creative' types with way out ideas have been/will be more well accepted...
does the book go that far?

True!

I think that there are many parents out there who find their personal self esteem by comparing their children to others. It is this type of parent who mucks up the water for the rest of us. They push their kids and love to play the one-up game.

We go to one of the best schools in our area so I see many of this type of parents. Once they found that my child was in the gifted program they wanted to know what math level she was on and how she scored on testing so they could compare their child's score to mine.
I just smile and say we did good and change the subject. I don't need to know what everyone else scored to be happy about my DD's results.

According to Smolin, the creative types were more tolerated until around 30-ish years ago. He wrote that there were always a few creative types banging around universities until then, but that their numbers have been progressively diminishing.

The main problem is that creative types can't publish 2 or 3 or more papers per year. So if you compare them to the master-craftsmen-types after 5 or even 10 years, the latter group will look much better. But he argued that if you leave the creative types alone, their contributions will eventually match or exceed those of the master craftsmen. A problem today is that everyone has to have grants coming in all the time, and you can't get grants if you don't publish a lot and so....

That said, he also cited Einstein's case and reminded the reader that he was working in the patent office because he couldn't get an academic job. But he also provided evidence that the climate was less hostile to the creative types back then.

Val

Before our youngest was born, DH and I would say "None of that academic stuff for our kids before they start school! Kids should be doing finger painting and playing and stuff like that up until they're 5!"

Fast forward through time: our 3 1/2 year old toddled up one day and looked at us with his big eyes and said, "Can you teach me to wead? I want to leawn how to wead." Turned out he already knew the sounds the letters make, what vowels were, etc. etc.

So we started reforming our opinions pretty quickly after that.

Val

I've never joined MDC, but have followed the PTGC forum for some time. I've been stunned by the tone of those who felt the PTGC was elitist... and was even more surprised by the reaction of the Mods. They seem to be making the changes without any complaints from regular PTGC participants.

That behavior is one of the main reasons I've long preferred this site. It's not an elitist issue in any respect, but simply a question of comfort & familiarity.

Too bad for them if they "shun" the GT community like that. Imagine the uproar if they all of a sudden decided to toss out the SN or "lactivism" forums. The fireworks would be impressive.

As it stands, any thread that dares to question the PTGC forum decision(s) is promptly closed from comments. Sad, very sad.

Many thanks again for this community and the spirited debates that flourish without any wounded egos!

I may not have been as clear as I could have been: he actually thinks very highly of master craftsmen. The top tier of this group are people who are brilliant at something technical (such as mathematics) and who are able to focus like crazy on an idea and and use their abilities to really really carry it through.

He describes the creative types as being able to peer into the darkness and pull fantastic new ideas out of it.

The MC aren't always so great with the creative stuff and the Seers aren't always so great at the technical stuff. This is why he argues that both groups are absolutely essential. They can be suspicious of each other because they're so different, but the system has trouble when only one group dominates (which he argues is the case now in theoretical physics).

Val

Just wanted to say I'm going to back to re-read this thread. I'm glad I found out where you guys have been hanging out since the plug was temporarily pulled. What I can't figure out is why they had to turn off the forum while they figure things out. How long does it take to figure things out and ask people not to comment about the changes specifically until they do. Why close the forum?

I didn't think there was any big deal myself. Maybe there were a few questions about is my baby/toddler gifted. I thought we were all pretty darn tolerant of those types of posts. If it didn't bug us, why should it bug anyone else?

I am frustrated and a little offended that they are making a big deal out of something so small.

Oh, by the way, I'm Miss Information over there and I have a new username.

Hi Sciencemama, welcome!

I haven't been to MDC. Did they lock the whole site or just the gifted forum?

I haven't read the book, but I have to say, after hearing from some bloggers who were Ph.D. students in scientific fields, this is really true and even worse if you are female in your field. It seems that many academic science fields hasn't truly caught up with feminism.


It's not as bad on the clinical laboratory side of things - there's a bit more respect for women's contributions there (I used to work in clinical labs and was shocked to hear what goes on in academia).

I followed a blog of a woman working on her Ph.D in molecular biology, scraped by finally to get it after dealing for years of bs from her advisor, and now is doing something entirely different because she was totally disenchanted with the entire process.

Here's some real insight to grad school.

Should I go to grad school?

I will be looking for that book from the library.

They just locked the gifted forum and the thread in Q&S about the gifted forum rules. Apparently the mods have been moving a lot of threads out of PtGC (parenting the gifted child) into other parts of the boards -- books for my 4 y/o to the books forum, schools for my gifted child to learning at school, etc. There is also apparently some modification of the forum guidelines that indicates that threads about babies and toddlers should be posted in the age specific forums not the PtGC forum.

I don't know how important it is to know if your infant is gifted or whether one can tell for sure, but those types of threads didn't dominate the PtGC forum as far as I can tell. If a parents wants to discuss their gifted baby, it isn't an issue for me either and I imagine that it would get a much more receptive audience in PtGC than in the infants forum! It is a life long malady not one that starts in elementary school - lol!

Moving threads about book-suggestions-for-my-literate-preschooler from Gifted to Books seems a bit over-controlling to me.

From what I read, the responses against the movement of posts were reasoned and logical, and I didn't see the need for exerting so much control.

Perhaps something else is going on.

Val

I'm sure that there is something else going on. I've been on MDC for quite some time and there was a similar big long thread when the PtGC forum came into being separate from the special needs forum. I've really never liked that we are not allowed to discuss what constitutes gifted, either, and (as I posted on the Q&S thread), it seems odd and arbitrary to moderate based upon a definition of what is and isn't related to being gifted without sharing that definition with the forum participants.

Apparently some the posts have been deemed more relevant to books, schooling, or the age of the child than the fact that s/he is gifted. I tend toward a broader definition wherein the child's giftedness can impact all aspects of her social and other functioning in the world. For one of my kids that has definitely been the case.

As someone else mentioned here, I do think that a lot of the complaints have been coming from people who take issue with the term gifted, with labeling children (although apparently not other special needs kids like those with ASD), and/or who have issues related to their experiences in GT programs as kids. The GATE programming I was in as a child in no way was adequate nor prepared me to learn how to work, but it didn't scar me either, so I guess that I don't have that hang-up.

Another online community I was in (unrelated to giftedness) disintegrated after the Admins made some rather arbitrary changes. The members left en masse and reestablished the community on hyperboards (a free web-hosting service).

Could be an option...

ETA, I'm sure everyone is welcome here as well!

Well Hi. Count me is an another migrating MDC'er.

One kind MDC mama pointed me over here to advocacy and what did I see over on the right hand side but this thread.

There are definite communication issues going on over there. The hesitancy to actually answer questions about the changes is perplexing and the cryptic responses that are given are very questionable.

I am testing the water by posting some threads in 'appropriate forums' while PTGC is down. I'm curious what would really happen if PTGC posters actually started posting elsewhere on MDC. I've been around long enough to know but am thinking that moderators and others have not.

The researcher in me is excited to see a direct comparison in responses to posts between forums if PTGC were to be re-opened.

In the meantime I enjoyed the wealth of information I perused here last night.

Exo

I am sorry but we are going to have to move your comment to tread about books. snicker snicker

I'm half tempted to go into other forums and start bragging up my dds, but that would be sinking to low levels. I don't even brag about them on PTGC. I sure appreciate the forum for what I did use it for.

One of them was asking about the Harry Potter book series for my first grader - whether or not I should let her continue with HP #4 - it's a 6th grade reading level. I don't know many first graders independently reading 6th grade books - which starts to get into dark topics. I didn't think to ask in books because I wanted the advice of other moms who's gifted kids could read independently. So yeah, I was one of the threads about books and independent young readers that got moved and I was a bit surprised about it.

Very strange indeed.

But I'm grateful for the two specifically gifted forums I have found. I think I'm going to be happy in both places.

Dd#1 started reading HP in 1st grade, too. I think that I responded on that thread of yours although I did let myself get sidetracked about the movies, too, so maybe I'm no better than the rest of the parents whose kids weren't reading 6th grade books in first grade .

I don't want to be a jerk either, but it does have some obnoxious appeal to start posting about my 10 y/o starting 7th grade next week in the preteen forum along with some bogus problem we are having and see what type of response I might get - lol!

Oh, Cricket2, I'll laugh so hard if you do that - except I think that maybe at 10, you should still post about her in Childhood Years!

And Sciencemama, for what it's worth, I let my DS (heading into first) finish the HP series. Did your daughter end up reading them all? How did it go? It didn't seem to bother my ds at all, but I think he may have just read more superficially when it was disturbing. He seemed most disturbed by Dolores Unbridge in one of the middle books. Actually, come to think of it, I think that was the most disturbing part for me as well!

Hey, my 9 y/o is starting 6th in a couple weeks. We can post at the same time. And as an added bonus, we have lots of bogus problems around here!

Val

That'll learn them for taking away the gifted board.
It would be funny.

Is the thought that the MDC gifted board is going to be returned? Anyone know if they've done this to any other boards? What seems odd about it to me is that prior to the threads being moved I was totally unaware there was any concern or problem.

I am guessing it's just closed until Heather B returns from vacation.

I can't say anything. I have two posts out there already.

Given the number of new people writing intelligent posts who've shown up here in the last 24 hours, MDC's loss is this board's gain!

Val

I think the trick is finding a good adviser. The most important advice I'd give any Ph.D in science is really, really, really think about who you want as an adviser before you sign on the dotted line. Talk to other students of theirs, see what kind of jobs they get afterwards, make sure you're interested in their field of interest etc. For the most part I've had a really positive experience in a large part due to my adviser.

In German they refer to the Ph.D adviser as the Doktorvater (doctor father). I think it's pretty much those most accurate description I've ever heard. It really is like a parent/child relationship and as like parenting you can have great parents or abusive parents. However this time around you actually get to choose who you want as a parent!!

I've got two things to say about this thread.

1st. Welcome to the new posters, this is a great place to talk about our kids, the good, the bad, and the ugly(usually all wrapped up in one!).

2nd. On the net, I've seen too much commentary regarding other forums devolve into feuding with posters on both forums('sides') attacking each other. This is a great forum, invite the people from elsewhere that need a place to post with likeminded parents; let the others resolve their own issues.

Oh Grandma - I think you are right about #2. I don't think any of us want to have toxicity follow us here, but really we had the rug pulled under us and are feeling a little hurt by it. It wasn't even a major thing that triggered it. The issues were very minor and no one who questioned what was happening was rude about it. But rather than asking us not to discuss the matter amongst ourselves, they closed that forum down. It made no sense.

A similar thing happened at SENG - there was a great thing going and boom the powers that be pulled the plug (at least they gave us advance warning there so those who wanted to find a new place to go and bring their friends with could do so). Many people were displaced and the hardest thing was finding somewhere to go. I feel badly for those who only lurked and we don't know who they are so they can't be contacted to be told about this place. I emailed 15 posters about another gifted message board (for adults and children called My Gifted Life that was one that was created after SENG shut down). And that's how I found out about this forum. I imagine there were many more who lurked and I can't contact to let them know about either.

School is starting this week or next for many kids...I'm almost certain there's going to be a spike in questions as the kids adjust to the new year and good news and disappointments to share about the accomodations that may or may not happen.

That's good to know. I know that I had a mentor at the forensic career I had and it was very much like a Doktorvater situation. I had such a great relationship with him that we still keep in touch even though it's been 10 years since I worked there. I will have to keep this in mind if I ever go get to grad school (which I've been thinking about).

So I'm guessing that starting an "Ultimate Brag Thread" @ MDC would be out of the question? (I suspect heads might explode.)

For me, both forums have provided valuable insight and I will be disappointed should we lose one of them.

I have heard about it and would agree with it.

Many fields are being "socialized," ie subordinated to norms based on social objectives rather than purely objective criteria. In Physics much of the problem is due to the single-payer nature of funding. Once a particular fad captures the funding process, its very hard to break.

Another example is the requirement in most humanities programs to cite "Social Justice" in ones' work. I know an Ivy League professor in Literature who sends me some interesting emails she gets from others in her field. The lockstep conformity is very oppressive.

Fortunately, the internet is breaking up the monopoly on publishing information and gathering of like minds. The funding issue is a big one, still. But the open nature of publishing of data allows for enterprising minds to use the data in ways not intended.

This is a good point.

Quite true.

Von Neumann's biographer put Johnny in the Craftsman category. Someone would have the insight and Johnny would make it whole.

Add male misogyny into the mix. If you poke around a bit, you can find that many women who do science blogs will have one or more academic "stalkers" who do really weird things to sabotage them. Add to this the real world colleagues who do the same thing.

Lee Smolin touched on sexism, too. He said that it's particularly bad in physics and that as someone who'd sat on hiring committees over the years, he was willing to vouch for some of the nasty things done behind closed doors.

Val

I've read about universities ranking scientists and candidates based on the journals their stuff is published in and the types of grants they get. So this could mean (my numbers here) you would get a 10 for a Nature paper and a 0.5 for a paper in, say, the Western Grafton County Journal of Biology. The content is irrelevent: even if the Grafton County paper provides useful information and the Nature paper is later found to be kind of close, but not actually right, it doesn't matter.

I look at this stuff and think, "No wonder people fabricate results."

Plus there's the whole thing about getting along with the senior people....

Painful.

Val

This is one of the most significant discoveries - small science, but stunning. And virtually unknown.

http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/comets/smallcomets.html

I, myself, have never been to the MDC board but sad to read all that is going on over there. Their lose is our gain: Welcome to all our new members!

This board is great and you don't get all the bickering that you would in the more generic boards, probably because this one specializes in gifted, period. But, I too, have wants and needs to reach out to the general public and have another board I use. Though I am a moderator on that board, I have mixed feeling about it because it has many groups on it including gifted but with the fact that it attracts so many types of people you don't get the deep topics that you find on this board and with that is a guarantee of some hostility of people that stumble on the gifted group. Typically they get a warning about their bashing and if it continues they get kicked from the group. It is one thing to have constructive criticism but another to be attacking someone for the idea of gifted.

I wasn't referring to impact factor of journals: I meant that it's applied to individual scientists.

That said, though, I'm not convinced that impact factors are as straightforward as they seem to be on the surface. For example, publication in a certain journal or lots of citations can be a reflection of trendiness as much as anything else. I can cite one example of groundbreaking work in theoretical physics in a low-circulation journal. Ernest Stu(e)ckelberg did Nobel-worthy work but published in French in relatively obscure journals (eg Helvetica Physica Acta). His choice of venue may have been unfortunate, but it didn't make his work any less meaningful

Val

Wow. Comets as a major player in the origin of life! Coo-ol! Thanks for posting that. Wait'll I tell my kids...

Val

That is interesting. I recall having read once the there was a hypothesis that some of the major epidemics of illness (such as the black plague) were brought about by bacteria or viruses carried to earth through meteor showers.