I've read that many gifted people have difficulty with organization. DS7 has great difficulty with it, and I've always chalked it up to him being just like me. As mine always was, his desk at school is the messiest in class. He seems oblivious to the mess (will just walk over it in his playroom) and frequently forgets to bring things home from school, turn in his homework on time, etc.... Of course, if it's something he's interested in, he NEVER forgets. LOL

So, my question is whether this issue with organization is common to those who are gifted, or if it frequently represents other issues like ADHD?

Any experiences with this?

Thanks for your thoughts.
~S from MD

I liken DS to an "absent-minded" professor type... Typically forgetting things left and right. One week, DS left a lunchbox at school 3 days in a row so on the 4th day, took lunch in a paper sack and brought home 3 lunchboxes (I save the ones from previous years if they are in reasonable condition). DS forgets jackets, gloves, etc. Has the messiest desk at school, etc. Yes, if its something DS (just turned 8) is into, will typically remember.

Just to throw things off, DD5 remembers almost everything. DD's stuff and my stuff and DS and DHs! Excellent working memory for things...

A family friend of ours had the same issue with their DS20 who is away at Duke. Now that he is on his own, things have improved dramatically.

Could be a thing with boys and/or enabling Moms (come on, I have 3back-up lunchboxes)!

The issues are a bit different with our DS since he is still only 4:6. But there is certainly something in the area. Namely, he is often off - and I mean *way* off - in his own world. The teachers at school have mentioned it in an increasingly exasperated way. At our parent-teacher meeting in November they said that every day at recess when it is time to go in precisely 12 of the 13 kids are properly lined up and ready. Invariably it is DS who is off wandering somewhere. One day they spent half an hour combing the school and playground for him before someone finally found him happily hidden inside an enormous truck tire singing to himself and "letting" his hands talk to one another. I don't know if this is an organizational challenge, but it seems to be in the area. As with your DS's, though, when he is focused on something he can be laser-sharp. Do you both find the spaciness trait as well as the organizational challenge? It's too early for us to have much evidence of the second.

I am worried that the teacher is starting to think our DS has ADHD. She made some rather cryptic suggestion about that the other day. I think I've read here or elsewhere that this is a common mis-diagnosis for gifted kids (especially gifted boys?), but I don't have any memory where I saw that. Do you have a link, S from MD?

BB

LOL, I am amazed at all the backups. You must know your child well. : )

Our DS is 4.5 and is similarly spacey, off in his own world, and forgetful as well. He is very inconsistent though as he will often wake up in the morning and tell us what day it is, whose birthday it is, etc. He reminds me of everything and has and excellent memory. But he will lose and forget things, which I am fairly sure is part of his age. No one has ever mentioned ADHD with him yet, although I have thought that they would as he can be very engergetic and hyper at times. He does not at all have ADHD and I know that only because of my background in that area..but still I could see how gifted children could be misdiagnosed. DS is constantly moving and constantly thinking. I have found that days he is more mentally stimulated he is less physically active though. When I see him getting really antsy I can give him some sort of challenge and suddenly his back on task. But he falls off of his chair almost every day (this is seriously not an exageration) because he can't just sit and eat a meal...he has to do a million things and talk, etc. But if he is really into something using his brain he is much better at sitting (but still falls some). And I have also noticed that when he is spacey it is often because he is thinking of something, doing math equations in his head, listening to something else going on intently (like a tv in the background or a conversation, or music).

DS has always had a hard time paying attention to things that do not interest him. And, frankly, where a lunchbox is just isn't very interesting.

We have lost tons of stuff including a brand new $80 coat. Now DS wears only a sweatshirt because we are not buying him another coat. We gave him the option of going to a second-hand store so he could buy a replacement with his own money, but he decided to just be cold. This has been a painful lesson, but one I think he is learning, very gradually.

I will say that his organization has gotten much better with puberty. I believe that the exectutive function portion of the brain does go through a spurt around 12-13. So we are optimisitic. OTOH, DH does have ADD which was not diagnosed until adulthood. DS has not been diagnosed or treated for ADD, but we still keep the possibility on our radar.

I don't think GT kids are necessarily organizationally challenged. DS7 seems to have it pretty well in hand, considering he's only 7. I'm sure some kids are really bad, but I doubt the numbers are any worse than those for the general population. Just my sense from seeing GT kids...

My guess is that the problem is that many people expect GT kids to be better at it than they are. Something of the "If you're so smart, why can't you remember your lunchbox" kind of thinking. But 8yos often forget their lunchboxes. <shrug>

I guess I'm saying that I'd tend to blame it on asynchronous development. But I have no specific evidence for that. I may be way off...

Addendum: I'm re-reading this later and I want to be clear that I definitely think some GT kids are lousy about organization. I don't mean to sound like I think they're not. I just mean that there are some ND kids who are disorganized messes, too. I don't think GT kids are necessarily any worse or any better about this because of their GTness.

Certainly GT kids are not necessarily organizationally challenged. I have not data, but I do think that at least some, though, do have (or appear to have) significant problems in this are. DS has organizational issues and all his teachers say that he is the last kid into the class and the last one out because he can't remember what he needs and his stuff isn't organized.

But as I watch DS13, I am struck by how much more he has to organize than an ND child. Initially, this was because of his own brain; he was interested in so many more things than other kids--everything that was happening in the classroom was of interest (what was on the board, the books on the shelf, the extra material in the text), so the details of what to take on the bus just never made it onto his radar until he was already on the bus and had time to reflect. Because of his curiosity, he had to organize more material than other kids.

Now, the fact that he is HG forces him to take on more organizational challenge. He goes to more different classes than other kids his age. He signs up for all sorts of extra activities and the teachers give him extra projects. Since his schedule is unique, his teachers can't use the same systems for coaching him that they use with the other kids. So he has more to organanize than other kids and less help getting it organized.

The bottom line for us is that his executive functioning is average, but he has to run a lot more stuff through that part of his brain and sometimes he just can't keep up. This leads to organizational problems. I am sure he isn't the only gifted kid who has this problem.

I do agree that I don't think GT kids are worse than kids that are not identified as GT. Kids will be kids, but I do think that it is more noticeable at times. Almost daily when I see my son do something stupid I have a thought in my head that goes a little something like this "why in the world would you ever do something like that? Oh yeah, you are 4 that's why"

Yup, acs. I hope my addendum clarifies what I meant. I totally believe your DS has greater problems with organization than most kids, and I didn't mean to suggest he (or anyone) didn't. I just meant that I don't think GTness guarantees organizational problems, as Mama22Gs was asking about.

Sorry. It may be an early bedtime for me tonight. I'm not saying what I mean very well today...

Coincidentally, I just listened to a long voicemail message from DS6's teacher. I had sent in a note asking her if we could come up with a plan to help his organization since he has been forgetting to bring home assignments and losing things. In her message, she said that "organizational problems are really common in bright children". Sounds like, if there's no evidence of this, there's a myth floating around. I've heard the same thing said about smart people and bad handwriting (I do hope this is true, since my handwriting is dreadful... )

I don't think anyone would say that GTness guarantees organzitional problems. But I am still leaning toward there being a correlation of some kind.

Here is my thinking (and to be honest, I am totally making this up!). DS has average executive functioning (per WISC), but he is the least organized child in his class. Based on his scores, his skills should be average, but they are clearly below average. I chalk this up to the discrepancy between his executive funtion and his other brain functions. The executive function cannot keep up, not because there is anything wrong with it, but just that it is the wrong size for the rest of his brain. Sort of like putting a jet engine on a Toyota. Nothing wrong with the jet engine; nothing wrong with the Toyota; they just aren't proportioned right to fit together.

So kids who have a jet engine on a jet or a Toyota engine in a Toyota aren't going to show the same kinds of problems. But if you look at the norming samples on GT kids, it does look like the executive function often runs lower than the other areas. It seems like these kids are at risk for some level of mismatch in ability that could manifest as organizational challenge. And this may be where we get the "absent minded professor" stereotype.

So that's my theory.

I am not sure that forgetfulness is related to GT but I do agree that WYSI NOT WYG with these kids. In other words, they have lots of thoughts swirling through their heads and can't always focus on the task at hand.

DS8 has been a nightmare at dinner for the past few years. He can't sit still, can't sit up straight, slouches, slumps, eats a bite then gets up and runs around seeking something, etc. This often occurs outside of the home too at restaurants or other people's houses. I wish I could say he's getting better but... We have learned that eating just isn't that important to him. He'd rather be doing a million other things. Interestingly (yes, sometimes the enabling occurs but it is DH more than me: I refuse to hand feed him hence the 60-75 minute dinners), he loves to read and would eat almost anything while reading if we feed him! He's had some food texture issues in the past as well as dislike of getting his hands dirty (almost all have been overcome) so sometimes, we do give in and feed him.

I can see how some of his behaviors could be misconstrued as ADHD. We certainly had a few sensory issues when he was younger which thankfully have diminished as he's aged. I don't know if his inherent restlessness is due to GT or he's just programmed that way. My Mom recently commented that she's observed other people's kids behaving perfectly but rarely sees mine sitting still. Don't know how to take that one...

Thanks for letting me share

I can somewhat relate as DS4 is so active at meals. He used to leave the room more, but we have told him that he gets a warning and if he gets up again his meal is over. He does typically sit at the table, but he sits half on the chair so he always falls off. Sometimes he kind of stands to eat. He does great in restaurants though and even at other houses for the most part. He will do a little better if actively engaged in a conversation. He is a pretty messy eater, unlike your DS he often uses his hands and we have to remind him all the time to use utensils. Anyhow, I get the texture issues as my son has them at times (although not with food because he LOVES all food and eats plenty). But I would try not to give in and feed him even though he has those texture issues. The more sensitive children are to that, the more exposure they need. for example my DS doesn't like the feel of shaving cream that much...but enjoys playing with it. So we try to do it more and use it in the bath so at least he can rinse his hands off. He also has sound sensitivity and used to try to get us to flush toilets when he wasn't sure how loud they would be. Now he uses his elbow. It's good to get them to practice it so they can be more comfortable with things. I am not an expert at all. We try all sorts of things with our DS, sometime successful and sometimes not. It's tough to hear comments like the one your mom gave. I have heard my share of comments as well. It is tough to distinguish whether issues are just kids being kids, or whether there is more of an issue that needs addressed.

Shellymos: You have just described my DS4 to an uncanny degree.

BB

The texture issues for eating still remain, somewhat but the getting hands dirty has progressed to where we were able to enroll him in a pottery class! This was the child who would never fingerpaint...

And, liked I mentioned earlier, still falls off his chair with alarming frequency. For about 9 months, he would invariably spill his drink at dinner - every night! Now, it only happens once a month or less...

I wish I had more guidance other than hang in there...As we are doing

I don't think of DS4 as being organizationally challenged (yet), though he hates to clean his room. But the stories of falling off chairs for no reason and being sensitive to the feel of things hits home.

Hmmm...Maybe I need to rethink!

He's also the child I'm not sure is GT. Not sure if all these things point to a processing problem and thus explain why he doesn't look GT or if he may just be an example of a child not GT who has organizational challenges.

Interesting discussion!

Per one of DS's teachers, "spontaneous fall-off's don't really stop until about 4th grade". Kids (boys especially) are well-known in elementary school to be prone fallinig out of the chair for no clear reason.

Good to know. Thanks, acs!

DS7 just never really fell out of his chair. I can't remember his ever doing it. I just checked with DH, and he can't remember it ever happening either. So it probably seems more odd to me than it should that DS4 (and a half) is falling out of his chair at dinner pretty regularly and for no apparent reason.

The first one has set the bar, and his bar isn't always set in a normal place...

Nice to see there are other kids out there. Does your DS have some of the sound sensitivity as well? Or just the falling off chairs and messy eating habits? LOL. We had friends over the other night and DS4 fell off his chair and they were like "are you allright?" He was fine and got right back up. DH replied "we don't typically react, it's not that we don't care but it is a daily occurance in our house."

Absolutely. A lot of it. He used to cry inconsolably when I laughed, because it "hurt his ears". Also, like your DS, ours eats pretty much everything, and eats a lot of it. And messily. While walking.

BB

DS4 is also very sound sensitive. He's touch sensitive, too, and in weird ways sometimes. He's the kid who complained that his sweats were "too soft." (What does that even mean?!?) But he also doesn't like wrinkled socks or tags or that sort of thing. He is emotionally sensitive, too.

He's not a very messy eater though. At least, not abnormally so for a 4yo. He eats with his fingers less than his big brother does. <eye roll>

Does all this go together in some way? Or is this just coincidence?

I feel like I am late to the party, but this thread is interesting. My child is too young to really fit into this conversation but she does have sensory issues. At least I think she does. We still have issues getting her to eat certain foods and yes we could chalk it up to the toddler stage but there is a pattern there. One day while at a restaurant I ordered a chocolate shake which came with sprinkles and shared it with her. The sprinkles are so minor I don't even notice them and she loves milk shakes but every step of the way she spit out the sprinkles. I swear she didn't miss a single one as she drank and I hardly noticed them as I drank my part of the shake even when trying to see how much texture was in each swallow. She will eat beans so long as they are refried but will not eat a whole bean b/c of the texture. She is also the kid that can not stand to have her hands dirty and was afraid to walk in the grass when she was younger. If she felt the blade on her leg she would stop and have to be picked up. She is over this now but it took a lot of patience from me. And she will now play in the dirt to some extent but always to have to wash her hands immediately after. I say it is baby steps with the kiddo. So I guess I am asking is the above sensory or just typical toddlerhood?

eating + walking/jumping = mess.

Last 4th of July DS was almost 4yo and we decided to see fireworks (from a distance at a relatives lakehouse). We put earplugs in his ears and thought that would help. He seemed to be enjoying it some and we were proud that he was willing to try it. A really pretty firework display went up and DS exclaimed "WOW!!! (pause) These ear plugs REALLY don't work" It was hilarious. He totally seemed excited about the fireworks in the way he said it. I am hopeful that he will grow out of some of the sound stuff. He has already gotten better in many ways.

LOL, I have no idea what that means...but it sounds like something my DS would say.

DS was sound sensitive as an infant. He would cry when my best friend came over and laughed because she laughed too loud. DS is sometimes texture sensitive, but not too much. I have tried doing more sensory diet things with him to get him used to it more. I would think if you were texture sensitive you wouldn't eat with your hands much.

I have read all about Dabrowski's overexcitabilities in gifted children and I totally think that fits with my son. I do see a correlation.

It's hard to tell, because I see sensory stuff already in my DD18mo, I don't think it is too early to tell in some areas, but I would guess/hope they will grow out of a lot of these things. DD18 mo. has major texture things, I can tell already. First of all she never eats barely anything, and if she gets something on her finger she shakes it in the air and freaks out. She has to eat yogurt with not one little chunk it it or she spits it out. She will get a hair in her mouth and will spit and spit until she can get it out. But she loves the water and doesn't even care if it gets in her face. She is unaffected by sounds as well. So only time will tell, I know some pickiness is part of being a toddler, but for me I think because of the pattern it is somewhat sensory. And she tries to get her clothes off sometimes. She pulls on her sleeves as if they are annoying her, and she loves to take off or put on her socks and shoes...depending on her mood I guess.

The yogurt problem put a smile on my face. That is my DD. She loves yogurt but if it has any chunks in it she won't eat it. And we have had problems with clothes if there is a tag in the back. It doesn't happen all the time but sometimes she is distressed if there is a tag on the back of her shirt. At least she doesn't seem to be bothered by seams on the socks. (See I can find a silver lining in the cloud.) But I have to admit that as she ages her textural issues seem to get better. She can now play in the grass and play with leaves. She can not, however, go down the slide if there is a bug on it. Not really textural but more girly. I just wish she could get over the food texture issue. She has no problem eating fresh boiled okra which is suppose to be odd for kids to like but is so picky when it comes to things such as beans. I just keep trying and hoping one day she will get over it.

Ah, your "drama queen" gives me hope, Dottie! I figure if you've survived, then maybe I can, too.

At least until he's 11...

DS7 has the organizational problems I mentioned, and also has sensory issues as well as difficulty sitting still and/or paying attention -- when he's not interested.

I've been really proud of him with dealing with sensory issues. He wears a uniform to school and as of a certain date of the school year must wear uniform pants instead of shorts. It is SOOOOOO hard for him to wear pants, but he is now able to talk himself through it to a certain extent -- he can make it through the school day in pants. He's a hoot when he gets home. He literally rips off his pants as soon as he's through the door, and races to put shorts on instead. Nobody had better get in the way, or they'll be run over. lol