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Posted By: Bostonian Stanford - 05/29/14 07:02 PM
I think this article draws some interesting contrasts between Stanford and Harvard.

Stanford's introductory CS course uses Javascript; Harvard's uses primarily C.
http://www.stanford.edu/class/cs101/
https://www.edx.org/course/harvardx/harvardx-cs50x-introduction-computer-1022#.U4eDyvldVHU

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/30/education/americas-it-school-look-west-harvard.html
America’s ‘It’ School? Look West, Harvard:
Riding Technology Wave, Stanford Rises to Top of Some Measures
By RICHARD PÉREZ-PEÑA
New York Times
MAY 29, 2014

Quote
But for students more attuned to technology, “there’s a sense that they have a direct pipeline to Silicon Valley and money that doesn’t exist here,” said Nicholas P. Fandos, the managing editor of The Harvard Crimson, who just finished his junior year.

About 5 percent of Harvard’s undergraduate degrees are awarded in computer science or engineering, compared with about 27 percent at Stanford. At Stanford, about 90 percent of undergraduate students take at least one computer programming class, compared with about half at Harvard.

The disparity has deep cultural roots at many liberal arts institutions: Anything that looked like practical career preparation was seen as something less than real undergraduate education. Stanford, which established an engineering school in the 1920s, was never like that. In fact, it has become one of many universities that worry about how far the pendulum has swung away from the humanities.

Harvard administrators have worked for years to expand offerings in computer science and engineering, but the going has been slow. Harvard created its School of Engineering and Applied Sciences in 2007, and it is planning a new campus across the Charles River, in the Allston neighborhood of Boston, largely for those studies.
Posted By: bluemagic Re: Stanford - 05/29/14 08:22 PM
And the point is? If you know what you are doing researching Engineering/computer science schools Harvard wouldn't be top of the list. Off the top of my head MIT, Princeton, and Stanford would certainly rank higher.

Learning C in this class probably does turns students not already planning to major in the subject off programing. 'C' has a longer learning curve than the newer scripting languages. You have to spend more time learning boring basics before you can write anything interesting, and more time debugging. A beginning C class is filled with lots of nitty gritty details. Another comparison point UC Berkley engineering use Python now but until last year used Scheme for this level class. Most of these classes are trying to teach concepts more than details of a computer language. And if a student has already taken a class like AP Computer Science, or have extensive programing experience already they quite likely won't be required to take this class.
Posted By: Dude Re: Stanford - 05/29/14 08:26 PM
Not coincidentally, Stanford grads go to work at Google and Apple, University of Washington grads go to work at Microsoft: http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_t...google_washington_to_microsoft_sjsu.html

Not surprising, because people tend to hire who they know, and students tend to target careers in the industries that they see succeeding around them.

Anyway, Harvard has a brand name that is associated with many things, but technology is not among them. A student in the Boston area who aspires to software engineering knows their time is far better served in MIT than Harvard.
Posted By: Leyla Re: Stanford - 05/29/14 09:26 PM
As a computer scientist at Microsoft (14+ years) who interviewed many, I would say that the most important part (over which good college you are from)is how much you know about the theory of computer science , coding algorithms etc.

Interview process at Microsoft is very through including 7-8 hours of interviewing at the white board answering many algorithm questions. Interviewers start with saying that answer to the coding problem can be implemented in any coding language chosen. So starting learning JavaScript vs C is irrelevant (though C is much more respected coding language than any scripting language)

In short, which college you are coming from is not that important as long as you prove your knowledge of coding at the interview. In the interview, nobody gets threated differently just because they are from Stanford vs MIT vs University of Washington etc.

Posted By: Bostonian Re: Stanford - 05/29/14 09:36 PM
Originally Posted by Leyla
In short, which college you are coming from is not that important as long as you prove your knowledge of coding at the interview. In the interview, nobody gets threated differently just because they are from Stanford vs MIT vs University of Washington etc.
Yes, but

(1) The least prestigious university you just listed is still a state flagship, and even admission to some state flagships has become pretty competitive.

(2) Interviewing is time-consuming and therefore costly for the employer, but filtering by school is quick, so the school attended may play a role in who is brought in for an interview.
Posted By: Dude Re: Stanford - 05/29/14 09:47 PM
Are you suggesting that a Microsoft hiring manager would turn away candidates because they graduated from Harvard?
Posted By: Aufilia Re: Stanford - 05/29/14 09:47 PM
Stanford is one of the college that has also been in the news lately for innovating its computer science program in ways that have greatly increased the number of women taking CS classes. It's clearly going to be much easier to produce more CS graduates qualified to work in technology fields when you develop attitudes and environments that more strongly appeal to both genders.
Posted By: Leyla Re: Stanford - 05/29/14 10:09 PM
Dude - I guess your question is not to my comment, because I am saying that noone is going to be rejected because they are from a certain college, they will be rejected if they don't have the necessary knowledge (even if they are from an Ivy).

Bostonian - I just put a few colleges, didn't think much about their ranking. As long as they are from decent colleges, that's fine. As far as filtering, it's not done by college. There are two other steps before inviting someone to campus interview. Hr. technical interview on the phone (30mins or so), computer scientist technical interview on the phone (about an hour).
Posted By: bluemagic Re: Stanford - 05/29/14 10:13 PM
Originally Posted by Leyla
As a computer scientist at Microsoft (14+ years) who interviewed many, I would say that the most important part (over which good college you are from)is how much you know about the theory of computer science , coding algorithms etc.

Interview process at Microsoft is very through including 7-8 hours of interviewing at the white board answering many algorithm questions. Interviewers start with saying that answer to the coding problem can be implemented in any coding language chosen. So starting learning JavaScript vs C is irrelevant (though C is much more respected coding language than any scripting language)

In short, which college you are coming from is not that important as long as you prove your knowledge of coding at the interview. In the interview, nobody gets threated differently just because they are from Stanford vs MIT vs University of Washington etc.
Every time people tell me about coding interviews it freaks me out that I am never getting back into this field. I worked as computer programmer for 15 years. Can code in C like the back of my hand. I have a math degree not a CS one and at the time getting jobs as a computer program did not require a CS degree at all. I Fell out of the job market when the combination of the place I was working going out of business, a health issue, and a family life that turned out to be way less stressful when I wasn't working. Never had to do a coding interview like that for any job I've held and it's kept me from even submitting my resume anywhere. Doesn't hurt that my husband has a good stable job.

BTW where you went to school can help GET the interview in the first place.
Posted By: bluemagic Re: Stanford - 05/29/14 10:26 PM
Originally Posted by Aufilia
Stanford is one of the college that has also been in the news lately for innovating its computer science program in ways that have greatly increased the number of women taking CS classes. It's clearly going to be much easier to produce more CS graduates qualified to work in technology fields when you develop attitudes and environments that more strongly appeal to both genders.
Harvey Mudd is another great school for women and engineering. Saw an article just a few days about about this. Harvey Mudd's President is awesome and really takes this seriously. Of course Mudd is even harder to get into than Standford.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechcon...e-College-Is-Closing-The-Tech-Gender-Gap
Posted By: Aufilia Re: Stanford - 05/29/14 11:28 PM
Originally Posted by bluemagic
BTW where you went to school can help GET the interview in the first place.


I would say this is the case with Microsoft & the UW. The geographical distance (< 10 miles) means it's easier to network, and students who are already familiar with the area are probably more likely to apply.

And FWIW, both Bill Gates and Paul Allen have strong family relationships with the University, and have donated a lot of money to the UW for various causes (and I can think of at least 4 buildings on campus named for a Gates or an Allen--and their family relationships go back to the 60s and 70s). So I wouldn't be surprised if there has historically been a tendency to look toward the UW for new recruits. There's a whole network of personal and community relationships at play.

On an aside, I would be interested in knowing how Amazon, which is also a major Seattle IT employer, compares.
Posted By: HowlerKarma Re: Stanford - 05/29/14 11:29 PM
Originally Posted by bluemagic
Originally Posted by Aufilia
Stanford is one of the college that has also been in the news lately for innovating its computer science program in ways that have greatly increased the number of women taking CS classes. It's clearly going to be much easier to produce more CS graduates qualified to work in technology fields when you develop attitudes and environments that more strongly appeal to both genders.
Harvey Mudd is another great school for women and engineering. Saw an article just a few days about about this. Harvey Mudd's President is awesome and really takes this seriously. Of course Mudd is even harder to get into than Standford.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechcon...e-College-Is-Closing-The-Tech-Gender-Gap

It's not, actually.

(Harder to get into, I mean)

Stanford's acceptances were lower this year than (gulp) MIT's.

Mudd runs about 15-20% acceptance, which is easily double what Stanford and MIT accept.
Posted By: intparent Re: Stanford - 05/30/14 12:27 AM
I think Mudd accepted 13% this year (D2 just finished a fantastic freshman year there). Stanford accepted 5.02% this year. Howlerkarma is correct. I have to say, she wouldn't trade for Stanford or any other school in the country, it is perfect for her.
Posted By: 22B Re: Stanford - 05/30/14 12:38 AM
Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
Originally Posted by bluemagic
Originally Posted by Aufilia
Stanford is one of the college that has also been in the news lately for innovating its computer science program in ways that have greatly increased the number of women taking CS classes. It's clearly going to be much easier to produce more CS graduates qualified to work in technology fields when you develop attitudes and environments that more strongly appeal to both genders.
Harvey Mudd is another great school for women and engineering. Saw an article just a few days about about this. Harvey Mudd's President is awesome and really takes this seriously. Of course Mudd is even harder to get into than Standford.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechcon...e-College-Is-Closing-The-Tech-Gender-Gap

It's not, actually.

(Harder to get into, I mean)

Stanford's acceptances were lower this year than (gulp) MIT's.

Mudd runs about 15-20% acceptance, which is easily double what Stanford and MIT accept.
Doesn't Harvey Mudd have slightly higher SAT and ACT scores for accepted students than Stanford?


Maybe prospective Stanford applicants should exercise better self-selection.


Posted By: Zen Scanner Re: Stanford - 05/30/14 12:38 AM
And Forbes had an article that had a computer science major from Carnegie-Mellon having the best average starting income of anywhere in any field (btw, they use Java for their intro class, or Java plus Alice for the non majors; it was Pascal when I went.) And for the full range, worth mentioning that MIT uses Python.

Oddly enough my son was asking about the best math undergrad schools at dinner today, I guessed Harvard and Cambridge. Time to search around and see if I'll need pedaoralectomy for my guess.
Posted By: bluemagic Re: Stanford - 05/30/14 12:46 AM
Did you mean MIT for Cambridge? Both Harvard and MIT are in Cambridge and so are a number of other universities.

Off the top of my head for math Princeton, UC Berkley, Stanford, Columbia. Again I'm not sure I'd put Harvard at the top of the list. Another good school for Computer Science is U. of Illinois Champagne/Urbana. What I think of Harvard as being the best for is subjects like Politics.

Edited to add.. Just looked up a list for math. OK Harvard & MIT are both near the top. And I forgot Carnegie Mellon, Yale, UCLA and Cal Tech.
Posted By: Zen Scanner Re: Stanford - 05/30/14 01:00 AM
Cambridge, as in University of Cambridge across the pond.

Funny the lists haven't much changed in thirty years. U of I for CS was my second pick.
Posted By: HowlerKarma Re: Stanford - 05/30/14 01:14 AM
I was surprised when I went looking at top math schools, actually-- Princeton and UCB, of course, I expected. Cambridge, naturally...

I didn't expect schools like UW and UBC to crack the top 25 internationally, though.
Posted By: bluemagic Re: Stanford - 05/30/14 02:33 AM
I was thinking in the U.S. Of course Cambridge, what was I thinking. University of Chicago for math as well. Asked my DH and he said Harvard is one of the top places for math, and in the top for CS but not top 5.
Posted By: Bostonian Re: Stanford - 05/30/14 12:48 PM
Originally Posted by bluemagic
BTW where you went to school can help GET the interview in the first place.
Where a company recruits may indicate what schools it values most. When I look up where Microsoft has recruiting events in Massachusetts http://careers.microsoft.com/careers/en/us/recruiting-events.aspx I see Harvard, Olin, and MIT, all highly selective. Nothing at UMass Amherst, the state flagship. In California it has events at many schools, including some less prestigious ones. Maybe a "name" school helps you get noticed by companies that are far away. I understand that the lack of on-campus recruiting is a surmountable hurdle and am sure that there are UMass Amherst graduates at Microsoft.
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