Our middle school offers French, Italian, and Spanish starting in 7th grade, with the same language being taken in 8th grade. Selective colleges expect several years of study of the same language, so a student is likely to persist with the same language in high school. The majority of students take Spanish, with the remainder about equally divided between French and Italian. An obvious reason for an American to learn Spanish is the large number of Spanish speakers in the country. What arguments could one make for studying French or Italian instead?
I studied French in school and could help him practice if he studied it. I wonder if this outweighs the practical advantages of Spanish. There are "language and culture" AP exams in all three languages, but only Spanish has an additional "literature and culture" exam.
Mandarin and Latin are offered only in high school.
Practically? To me, German is the #1 choice, French the #2. (And yes, I know that German was not on your list; it's "my" #1 choice for practicality)
German is the industrial language of Europe. My wife's aunt works for Zeiss, where German clearly offers advantages. This is also true in chemical engineering.
And France is still a major world power. My former partner's son (Princeton/Harvard) practices law in Paris. So, there's clearly opportunity there.
I deal with Spanish clients all the time. In order to deal with them we just hire an interpreter from the temp store, so from a "practical" standpoint, it's economic value is "$7.50 per hour."
My hispanic (libertarian - Ron Paul) Spanish-speaking assistant now refuses to translate because she's sick of doing it (meaning going to the courthouse), so it's up to the temps.
I guess you wanted input on Italian, too.
I would point out that Italy effectively isn't even a real country in Europe. It's a fun language that you take for fun and not for practicality.
I'd say it depends on your goals. Spanish and German have the practical advantages you and Jon mention. Travel and business aren't priorities for us. Instead, we chose French because (i) I speak it reasonably well and so can help more, (ii) reading French is an important academic skill (same case could be made for other languages, but French for what my dc is interested in is the best case), (iii) I always find it embarrassing when educated people mispronounce French (or German, actually, so dc will take both -- French and to a lesser extent, German, terms are ubiquitous in some fields). Probably you could make a similar case for many other languages, but given dc's status as a humanities kid focused on English and French literature and history, French and later German fit for him.
Not even a real country? What about the food????
Not even a real country? What about the food????
There are lots of real countries in what we today call "Italy."
Each has a different kind of yummy food!
Culturally, there are arguments for studying all the languages you mentioned; what matters will be where your son wants to live or work, and in what field. If he shows an interest in diplomacy, or senior levels of business requiring access to government officials, French has a stronger legacy than the other languages you mention. German is a widely spoken second language used for commerce. Likewise, if your son shows any entrepreneurial or social enterprise interest, Spanish would be a strong bet given that the global population base and growth rate of mother tongue Spanish speakers is considerably larger than the same for the European languages.
As an American, I'd pick Spanish or German, if your son shows any interest in working in Europe. As English is an indo-Germanic language, his rate of learning German will likely be faster than for a Romance language. However, Spanish is a relatively easy language to learn because it is so regular, which is important given his relatively late start.
As a practical consideration, I'd also consider what immersion opportunities your son would have available outside the class, as that's the way language is learned best. Are there second language clubs or cultural associations for the languages where you live? I'd assume a few hours a week-- maybe 5-- of immersion to become proficient.
My suggestion would be to find out who the teachers are, because if they're native English speakers, it may be a waste of time. I spent two years with a very good French teacher only to find myself unable to converse in it with anyone but her, on account of my ear was tuned to the language as spoken by one with a strong American accent. The native speaker sounds alien to me.
My Hispanic DW regularly translates/corrects movie dialog in Italian, and says she can do the same in Portuguese, so those three are basically interchangeable (French is the one Romantic language not interchangeable because its phonics are a train wreck). That and the fact that Spanish is spoken over a huge portion of the globe, and even here in the US, gives it amazing utility from a practical standpoint.
I endorse Jon's opinion of Italian. Apart from the fact that it would also help you converse in Spanish and Portuguese, it has no practical value. You don't even need it to visit Italy.
I vote for French. It is the language of diplomats, and all UN documents are produced in both French and English. While there are a lot of Spanish speakers in this country, I can't think of any academic pursuits that would require you to speak Spanish. While there are more Spanish speakers than French speakers worldwide, the French speakers are spread throughout the world, whereas Spanish speakers are mainly in Mexico, Central America and South America (and of course, Spain).
All three of mine were in a French immersion school from Pre-K through part of elementary. Eldest went on to take German in high school, while middle kid takes Spanish. They both took/take French in HS, but were placed at a high level due to their immersion experience.
Italian should be easy to learn if you know French and/or Spanish. My two older ones can "read" Italian well enough to get the main idea of a story. Another thing to watch with Italian - if your school cuts a language, it will be Italian. Our district did this a few years back.
Honestly I don't think it matters unless the child in question can be expected to find learning languages very hard. It just is not that difficult to learn any of those languages to a standard higher than is likely to be offered in school, so if any of the languages is needed for practical purposes later, it's fine to learn them later. Or do them all simultaneously now with help from the web (duolingo is nice for basics, and free). Picking one for school, I think I'd go for whichever seems likely to be taught best - what does the grapevine say? If that doesn't return an answer, pick whichever appeals; or maybe, whichever the child is *least* likely to learn later for practical purposes. That argues for Italian, which is a beautiful language...
Italian is useful if he likes opera.
I agree, your son could check out the teachers, and much depends on his ability to learn languages. My older DS opted for Latin in grade 5, although or perhaps because(!) I could help him with French and Spanish, but the Latin teacher was much more engaging than the other two were. All of his classmates had been taking Latin since 2nd grade, so he was a bit nervous. He caught up quickly with a teacher's support and did very well with it in middle school. Since then he's taken living language, but not faring as well as with Latin.
An obvious reason for an American to learn Spanish is the large number of Spanish speakers in the country. What arguments could one make for studying French or Italian instead?
French is a world language, useful for understanding not only Europe but also swaths of Africa and some of Asia's colonial history as well. Spanish (and Portuguese) likewise open vistas onto different parts of the world. You can't really make as powerful a case for Italian in this regard.
There are different things to *enjoy* with each language. Your child might want to dip into some French or Spanish lit in translation and see if there are writers appealing enough to want to read in the original. There is some wonderful poetry in French. Italian is beautiful and fun.
Having any of these languages, it is not tough to pick up the others in any case.
DD has simply picked up enough Italian to read reasonably well even with some limited exposure to Spanish and Portuguese as a younger child. I think it's the classical musical training, myself.
She's studied German-- which I've personally found more useful than French as a scientist-- and plans to study French, which she picked up with relative ease even in two weeks in Paris.
She may not be most kids, though, and would like to study either in French-speaking Canada and/or in France at some point in her future.
Agree that French/Spanish/Italian/Portuguese are more or less interchangeable in terms of learning demand and ease of conversion.
Dutch and German share enough similarities that those two are similarly interchangeable.
My answer, in summary:
STEM? German.
Humanities? French.
(I say that having minimal competence in either one-- I've used them both, but in very different domains in my life.)
I think that Spanish is a good first foreign language because it is so easy. Studying Spanish first will make it easier to study French or Italian or vice versa. However, most high schools only offer up to 4 years of a language so they will likely make a switch at some point. For my DD, she will take 4 years of French because she wants to work in art and design and has expressed an interest in living in France at some point. Personally, I favor French and Italian for the cultural and literary aspects.
My brother is a high energy physicist and regularly goes to Europe to CERN. In our very small high school the choices were Spanish and German and he took Spanish. He says he regrets it now and wishes he had taken German because it would have fit better with physics.
If your child is interested in pursuing a PhD in math from a top school, from the languages you listed I would go with French.
Interesting, thanks. My father earned a PhD in physics in the 1960s, for which a reading knowledge of German was required. There were no foreign language requirements when I got a physics PhD in the 1990s. But it appears that math is different.
Exactly-- the place where I went to grad school was pretty old-school, but there was no FORMAL requirement. Still, there were some seminal papers in neuroscience and electrochemistry in particular which had never been translated from German-- and I could read them. It's been handy in pharmacology, as well.
My DH, on the other hand, does not have literacy in anything but English, and in MatSci, it's been fine for him.
I lived/worked in the Former Soviet Union for 13 years and only spoke English when I left the US. My Russian is ok now (I am clearly not great with languages and Russian is quite difficult), my wife speaks 3 languages (Russian/English/Turkish). I was fortunate to travel extensively (visited 35 countries) during my time there and having English is key as you can get by in most places pretty easily with it.
My son's first language is English but he can read, write and speak Russian very well. He must choose between French or Spanish for next year and I will encourage Spanish because it will be easier for him to hear/speak it frequently and I think this is crucial if he is going to have any fluency in the language.
I think French could be useful if you are going to work as a diplomat or work in Africa. English is all one needs for Europe and if working there were your goal I would go with German before French as a second language. I am surprised French is still offered as a choice in schools. It should be German or Chinese, in addition to Spanish, I think.
Lol. Honestly, those language requirements for maths haven't changed since I was an undergraduate, and they were ridiculously outdated then. You can tell how vital it is to know any of these languages to be a mathematician from the fact that there isn't a single one of these languages that the schools agree you have to know. It's a hurdle that's useful for filtering doctoral candidates, that's all. [ETA we all like a nice mixed metaphor, right?] By the time you might, very occasionally, have a serious need to read mathematics that hasn't been published in English, you'll be working in a department that has native speakers of the language in question, and you'll ask them nicely to help you. (And they, in turn, will ask you nicely to proofread their papers written in English.)
I don't know about the mathematics department at Chicago. But I am pretty sure Math can serve as the foreign language requirement in many other departments in University of Chicago.
I don't know about the mathematics department at Chicago. But I am pretty sure Math can serve as the foreign language requirement in many other departments in University of Chicago.
Do you plan to have your ds do Latin in high school or to just continue with the language chosen in middle school?
I am a bit jealous of your language options. In our public schools, there is no foreign language in middle school unless you are continuing in an immersion program, and there is no Latin in any public high school - only a few of the more competitive private schools and of course the Jesuit schools still have it.
Are you interested or able to travel to any of the countries where the language is spoken, or do you see your ds choosing to study abroad in one of those countries?
Thanks to everyone who replied. He chose French. The fact that many people thought French was a reasonable choice gave my son and me confidence to choose French. I had him read the thread yesterday -- he was surprised and amused by a few comments ("Italy is not a real country"). Since he likes math, the fact that several PhD programs consider French a relevant foreign language (a fact mentioned in the thread) interested him.
Late to the party, but here are a few more thoughts:
- The value of Spanish in the U.S. goes way beyond dollar value. Increasingly there is social currency in being able to chat in Spanish, which has intangible value for your employer as well as you personally.
- Because English shares its grammatical structure with German, but its advanced vocabulary with French, German is easier to start with, but becomes more difficult, while French is the other way around.
- French is harder for an English speaker to hear. This is because (to a first approximation) English, German, Spanish and Italian are stress-timed languages, while French is a syllable-timed language. The rhythm is really different.
- Of the romance languages, Italian is the most regular. I've heard it said that if you know English, French, and Spanish, you get Italian for free. Just learn a few rules about word endings, and you can fake it.
Thanks for the interesting comparisons of languages. There are books such as "Concepts of Programming Languages" that don't try to teach how to program in any language but which explain (to experienced programmers) how programming languages differ. I wonder if similar books about human languages exist.
Thanks for the interesting comparisons of languages. There are books such as "Concepts of Programming Languages" that don't try to teach how to program in any language but which explain (to experienced programmers) how programming languages differ. I wonder if similar books about human languages exist.
Isn't that what linguistics is? The study of languages? Lots of linguistics texts out there.
Isn't that what linguistics is?
Yeah. Getting up to speed is kind of a multi-year project.
Isn't that what linguistics is?
Yeah. Getting up to speed is kind of a multi-year project.
Well, the important thing is that we now all agree that Italy isn't a real country.
Linguistics is really a secondary concern here.
Spanish, French and Italian are closely related, so if your child wants to learn multiple languages, any of the three would be helpful toward the others. I agree that French pronunciation is more difficult, but so many words in English come from French that vocabulary is relatively easy.
Regarding JonLaw's comments on Spanish, I couldn't agree more as far as its ability to increase your income, at least in general. I did get my first two jobs as a result of my bilingual abilities, the second of which was in the financial sector and paid quite well (this is probably an exception which confirms the rule). However, I now translate documents for my church, kids' school and pretty much whoever asks on a volunteer basis.
That said, living in the SW US, I use my Spanish almost daily, with the housekeeper, the lawn guys, the employees of our contractor, the lady who sells balloons at the grocery store. I may not any money this way, but I'm sure I've saved a fortune just by being able to communicate with the people who are actually doing the work, thus cutting down on mistakes and misunderstandings.
With my own children, we are starting with Spanish (but this is because we're already a bilingual household) and will add French when they are a little older, so they will be able to order in our favorite restaurant.
My son is taking Spanish and my daughter took Latin. I let them make an their own own informed decision. My son wants to learn Japanese but it isn't taught at any local high school. I looked into it last year and decided the best option was to wait till he could start taking it from the community college. (Next summer if he is still interested.) Spanish is very useful where I live and I figure he can't go too wrong with it. Spanish, Latin, Chinese, French and Sign Language are the only options at our High School. It is more options than at post local public schools, although Korean is also taught in my district.
A 2002 study "The returns to speaking a second language" by Saiz and Zoido
http://www.phil.frb.org/research-and-data/publications/working-papers/2002/wp02-16.pdf found that learning German boosts earnings more than learning French or Spanish, because the supply of people who know German is small relative to the demand for them.
http://www.economist.com/blogs/prospero/2014/03/language-studyJohnson: What is a foreign language worth?
The Economist
Mar 11th 2014
Second, Albert Saiz, the MIT economist who calculated the 2% premium, found quite different premiums for different languages: just 1.5% for Spanish, 2.3% for French and 3.8% for German. This translates into big differences in the language account: your Spanish is worth $51,000, but French, $77,000, and German, $128,000. Humans are famously bad at weighting the future against the present, but if you dangled even a post-dated $128,000 cheque in front of the average 14-year-old, Goethe and Schiller would be hotter than Facebook.
Why do the languages offer such different returns? It has nothing to do with the inherent qualities of Spanish, of course. The obvious answer is the interplay of supply and demand. This chart reckons that Spanish-speakers account for a bit more of world GDP than German-speakers do. But an important factor is economic openness. Germany is a trade powerhouse, so its language will be more economically valuable for an outsider than the language of a relatively more closed economy.
But in American context (the one Mr Saiz studied), the more important factor is probably supply, not demand, of speakers of a given language. Non-Latino Americans might study Spanish because they hear and see so much of it spoken in their country. But that might be the best reason not to study the language, from a purely economic point of view. A non-native learner of Spanish will have a hard time competing with a fluent native bilingual for a job requiring both languages. Indeed, Mr Saiz found worse returns for Spanish study in states with a larger share of Hispanics. Better to learn a language in high demand, but short supply—one reason, no doubt, ambitious American parents are steering their children towards Mandarin. The drop-off in recent years in the American study of German might be another reason for young people to hit the Bücher.
Goethe and Schiller would be hotter than Facebook
Sadly,this particular calculus doesn't even seem to be true for MY fourteen-year-old. And she's pretty fond of Goethe, all things considered.
learning German boosts earnings more than learning French or Spanish
This may be true overall, but it doesn't take into account how language will affect earnings
by field. They averaged everything together. In the world of finance or international trade, German might boost your earnings. But if you want to go into anything human-services related, Spanish (in the U.S.) will make you a much more desirable hire, while German will get you squat.
The paper attempted to control for this, but failed in two ways. First (and less serious), they used college major as a proxy for career choice, which is a very inaccurate measure. Second and more important, they merely used that information to adjust the statistics to eliminate it as a source of bias in their results, but they still were lumping everyone together. When you average everyone together, German is buying
somebody enough more that it pulls the whole statistic in favor of German.
Instead, they should have been looking by career category. (In the language of my biz, they should have been looking for simple effects instead of a main effect, because there are probably some serious cross-over interactions going on here.)
TL;DR -- If you want to practice medicine in New Mexico, take Spanish not German.
learning German boosts earnings more than learning French or Spanish
This may be true overall, but it doesn't take into account how language will affect earnings
by field. They averaged everything together. In the world of finance or international trade, German might boost your earnings. But if you want to go into anything human-services related, Spanish (in the U.S.) will make you a much more desirable hire, while German will get you squat.
The paper attempted to control for this, but failed in two ways. First (and less serious), they used college major as a proxy for career choice, which is a very inaccurate measure. Second and more important, they merely used that information to adjust the statistics to eliminate it as a source of bias in their results, but they still were lumping everyone together. When you average everyone together, German is buying
somebody enough more that it pulls the whole statistic in favor of German.
Instead, they should have been looking by career category. (In the language of my biz, they should have been looking for simple effects instead of a main effect, because there are probably some serious cross-over interactions going on here.)
TL;DR -- If you want to practice medicine in New Mexico, take Spanish not German.
TL;DR -- I think you are just jealous of my previously demonstrated profound giftedness in the (admittedly narrow) field of European language economics.
Broad studies are useless in determining individual outcomes.
Broad studies are useless in determining individual outcomes.
You are harshing my mellow here.
Broad studies are useless in determining individual outcomes.
You are harshing my mellow here.
If you can say that in German, you get $128k.
You get it in the form of a "cheque," whatever that is. I'm not familiar with that particular language.
It's like a gift.
Well, like a gift in English, anyway. Not so much like das gift would be in Deutsch. Though I suppose that it's fair to note that there could be some interesting metaphorical dimension to that particular pseudo-cognate pair...
Falsche Freunde indeed.
Being from Canada, I took French. I went to Wall Street and traveled around the world. Japanese would have been particularly useful. The only time I used French in France was to yell at my limo driver when he got lost on the way to Renault and asked him for the map. When I was traveling around S America talking to investors, they all spoke English, but Spanish would have good to know.
German is always good, if you need to look at documents. Germans speak English. French is good to read a menu in an expensive restaurant.
My view is what do you want to do with it? If business is the end goal, Spanish covers a lot of countries. German because most of Europe may collapse before we get through this mess. French because you can be pretentious.
This is from someone who took French and wishes they had not.
If it was me, I'd take Spanish in middle school, because it's likely to be the most useful in the US so it wouldn't hurt to have some basics.
And then I'd switch to Latin or Mandarin in high school. They're both hard language, and if you're going to learn a hard language, you're better off doing it as young as you can. I'd go with Mandarin over Latin because it's so very different from English in so many ways, plus, you're likely to pick up a better accept starting younger. (Does anybody care about accents in Latin?)
But, really, what does your son want to take?
My junior high offered Spanish and Mandarin. I picked Mandarin primarily to be obstinate (someone told me it was too hard) and ended up with a master's degree in China area studies.