My daughter (6.5yo) has recently made friends with a girl at school who is extremely competitive and controlling. I will call her Girl X. Girl X manipulates EVERY situation she can to ensure she gets what she wants (I'm not exaggerating). On the rare occasion she lets my daughter 'have a turn' she then insists on how dd completes it. In games Girl X will manipulate the situation (often through blatant cheating) to ensure she wins and encourages dd to loose if it looks like she is going to win. Girl X constantly talks over dd so that only her opinion is heard. If dd actually wins Girl X will tell her that she let dd win. If dd gets a new toy/piece of clothing etc, Girl X will tell dd that it's horrible or plain etc. She does this constantly (well, at least in my presence) and without fail.

Other mums have had the same experience and have also told me this girl is preventing other kids who want to play with dd from playing with her. Girl X plays tricks on the other girls who are trying to be part of the group and whenever my daughter starts to build a relationship with another girl I hear back from Girl X's mother that Girl X 'hates' whoever dd has been playing with.

Dd LOVES her. She mostly gives standing up for herself a good go, but almost always eventually backs down. Except for things that are really important to dd (for example Girl X is always trying to borrow dd's things before dd has had a chance to play with/read/use them) - in those cases dd will generally put her foot down and remain firm. This though, only occurs a tiny fraction of the time.

Because of this (the fact that dd is very happy in the relationship and because she does put her foot down when it really matters) I am uncertain whether or not it should bother me as much as it does. DD is grade skipped in to a class with a group of gifted kids, one of whom is Girl X, so this girl is a year older. I wonder whether if I continue to stress to dd that she should ensure she's getting heard and having a say, and giving her some tools to address this, perhaps it's just dd's immaturity that is allowing this to occur. But in reality dd is extremely socially astute. She is more mature than many of the girls 12 - 18 months older than her in the class. The mothers of those older girls are experiencing the same issues.

Girl X's parents are very permissive (by their own admission) and her mother is extremely judgmental; from what I have witnessed, sometimes to the point of cruelty - both to others (children and adults) and to her daughters (I don't know the father well, but I do know from the mother that when he does decide to discipline their girls he becomes quite extreme and harbors a grudge for some time). I know the mother is aware of Girl X's behaviors and she says they're 'working on them'. But the reality is the behaviors the parents model are also quite extreme. Ultimately I suspect Girl X is extremely anxious, has shifting boundaries, is lacking in self esteem and is just trying to control 'something' with the tools she has at her disposal. So I don't think she's a bad kid.

I'm not sure I am handling the situation particularly well. I call Girl X out on her cheating (in as friendly way as I can) and, when it starts to become ridiculous, on her insistence that everything is done her way. I have talked to dd about my concerns (and they are concerns shared by all the other mums who have anything to do with this girl) - that dd is not being treated respectfully, that Girl X is not treating others respectfully. I asked dd how she feels when Girl X is doing those things and she said she doesn't know, so I have asked her to think about it when they are next together.

I am unsure of where being controlling becomes bullying and certainly dd doesn't appear to feel bullied at the moment - but I am concerned Girl X is (not necessarily consciously) grooming dd for a bystander role and that this behavior might escalate over time.

If you have got this far (thanks!), any thoughts on how I should handle it?

I don't really have specific advice, but I think that you may want to look at Little Girls Can Be Mean, which has a lot of good advice about dealing with manipulative behavior and helping your DD learn to manage friendships. Good luck!

I was going to say the same. Interestingly enough, I've seen my more socially aware child fall into unpleasant relationships like this a lot more often than my other one. Possibly it is b/c she is more of an extrovert, but she seems more willing to trim herself to suit others and less willing to risk social ostracism by being assertive or blunt with others.

Mine has become more aware of her own willingness to overlook problems with her one friend who is a bit like this over the years, though, and will freely admit that she only hangs out with her b/c she is bored and has no one else with whom to hang out when she does choose to be around this other child. I think that some of seeing her be rude to dd's other friends has soured dd on the relationship over the years. She still seems to be able to tolerate being condescended to and other things that really tick me off, but she really doesn't care for things like the other child saying, "I don't like you; you should leave" to dd's other friends.

Been there, done that. Based on my experience, your bigger problem will eventually be Mom X. We spent a lot of time coaching our DD and Girl X in how to find common ground, and DD began asserting herself more, by increments.

As DD started standing her ground and Girl X stopped getting her own way all the time, she started whining to Mom X, who decided to get personally involved by calling my wife and telling her how to be a proper parent. Not satisfied with this bad behavior, Mom X then decided to visit our neighbor (Mom Y) and try to sabotage DD's relationship with their kids by spouting a number of obvious lies, and enough bits of truth that Mom Y couldn't know from any other source that we knew when Mom Y shared the whole thing she was telling the truth. Finally, Mom X decided to try to work things out, but when confronted with her behavior with Mom Y, Mom X decided to try to lie and say Mom Y had made it all up. Strike three.

DD is no longer allowed to play at Girl X's house, and Girl X is no longer allowed in our house. If both girls happen to be at Mom Y's house at the same time, we don't argue, as we consider that neutral ground. What's important is that my child is not under the direct supervision of someone who would call her a brat, and my DW is not directly supervising a child whose mom will use that as an opportunity for offensive phone calls.

The X's has another child, and older boy. He has no friends. Girl X has lost other friendships due to her behavior, and like you, we were warned by other parents.

You've said your Mom X is judgemental, so she's probably already making (and may be reporting) negative judgements about you and your DD. You also said she's permissive, which makes sense, because kids who insist on getting their own way usually learn that behavior at home, where if they badger their parents enough, they appease. That's certainly the case with our X family.

I went through a similar situation with my daughter. First of all, I think it's wonderful that you don't see Girl X as a bad kid (at that age it's never their fault). I had to work hard at this with "Our Girl X" (let's call her OGX). My DD was 6/7 at the time (it was grade 2).

There are two ways to look at it. One is that less than desirable situations provide learning opportunities. This was my original approach - I would discuss "OGX's" behaviours with my DD, while trying to be compassionate towards OGX (keeping in mind that my DD loved this kid). The second way is to restrict your child's access to influences you you don't like, which is what I ended up doing. In the beginning, though, I tried talking my daughter through it.

For example, OGX was a liar (I caught her several times). DD and I would talk about lying and how it's wrong, and isn't it sad for OGX that she hasn't learned that yet. OGX was very rude as well, blatantly refusing to say "please" and "thank you" even when gently reminded. Again, this prompted conversations with my DD. OGX had less than desirable morals, as well: one day she and DD were picking up litter in the school ground... DD said her reward for this was helping the earth to be greener, and OGX said she wanted to be rewarded by being on TV.

Omgosh... AAND (I'm remembering more now, lol), OGX would purposefully chew with her mouth open because she knew it annoyed people, AND she used to brag about using a calculator to cheat in math. One day at our house we had a coin toss to see which girl would get the first turn on the computer and OGX lost the toss... she also lost her temper and started throwing stuffed animals at me.

(sigh)

It got to the point where I was SO tired of the "crisis management" conversations. The scales had tipped from "learning opportunities" to "excessive bad influence." When I noticed my DD starting to pick up on OGX's behaviours, I finally put my foot down and created distance between the girls: fewer and fewer play dates between the two of them, and proactive encouragement of other friendships.

Now the situation seems to be resolved - they both have other friends and they're both in different classes.

My advice would be to find your own balance between learning opportunity Vs. bad influence. Set up play dates with other kids, and be proactive about filling your DD's schedule so she doesn't have as much time to spend with Girl X.

Good luck

It sounds like you're handling the situation extremely well, as is your daughter. It's so difficult to know when to step in and when to stay out of children's business.

My 6-year-old son had a little girl in his class last year who was a very, strong personality. She was the "ring leader" of all the little girls. She controlled everything, much like you're saying. My son came home many days with hurt feelings. He didn't understand why he couldn't be a part of their "girl's club", which the teacher quickly put a ban on. He wanted to play with them. He sat next to one of the little girls in class, who wouldn't really talk to him because of her ring leader. My son is a sweet boy without a malicious bone in his body (He's impulsive, but it's not in his nature to be mean.) He didn't tolerate her bossiness and nonsense when he didn't feel like putting up with it, much like you said your daughter stands up for herself. He'd go head-to-head with her and stand up for himself. Eventually, he just started to play with other kids. He didn't like that she was always hurting his feelings, but he was certainly drawn to her anyway. She had some sort of magnetic personality that he really had trouble staying away from. It seems most of the kids (especially the girls) had trouble staying away from her.

It seems like you're doing this from what you said (and it's always so hard when you feel your child is being hurt), but remember that the other child is just a little girl. And you certainly have no control over her, but you do have control with your child. Just continue pointing out what the child does to others, and how she makes your daughter feel. Your daughter will eventually have her "aha" moment about it. Or the other little girl will grow out of her bossiness and need for control. (I certainly remember those girls from when I was a child! Luckily, most of them turned out to be very nice girls.)

That said, have you spoken to her teachers about it? Not to complain about the child, but just for advice or help? They may have experience dealing with said child. They'll usually keep a watchful eye on things if you bring up your concerns. Most of the time, they see exactly what's going on.

I don't know if any of this helps, but I certainly know how you're feeling. Best of luck with the situation!

I have a 6.5 yo dd who had/has a frenemy like that, too. It made me so annoyed to witness the behavior! Fortunately, we switched schools, which prevented daily contact. But during the relationship a year ago, I would talk to my dd about what qualities were important in friends, and how she wanted her friends to act toward other people, including her. And that I'd ask whether this "friend" had those qualities. (My dd would say, '"Sadly, she doesn't." ) We also talked about what friends "don't " do, which I hoped would also plant a seed for my dd. This little girl also misbehaved at our house during playdates and would throw crazy tantrums when it was time to leave. That, too, was a good opportunity to talk about what kind of person my dd wanted to be and to be friends with.

Hopefully that helps!

Thank you so much for all your advice. I am torn between feeling like dd has a right to choose her friends and therefore not interfering, and using this window of time while she'll still listen to me to hopefully give her some insight in to how these kinds of relationships impact on her and others. I've been going with the latter and it's comforting to hear that that would be the approach others would take.


ElizabethN - Thank you for the book advice - I have ordered it.

Cricket3, I love your suggestion re showing how it impacts on others. Dd has quite solid self esteem and doesn't see her self as a victim at all. But I think she would respond to how Girl X's behavior might make others feel, especially kids who aren't so resilient.

Cricket2 - Your description of 'trimming herself down' is exactly right. Dd can slot herself in anywhere, she molds and trims and adds to herself so she can fit any size or shape of social hole. It's extraordinary. Other parents love her and without fail they tell me their children have never played better than with her. She just goes with the flow. In many ways this is a truly valuable quality, but in others - when you and/or your friends are not being treated respectfully, it is problematic. I'm so glad your daughter has grown to see her friend's behavior for what it is - I'll hold out hope!

Dude - I am fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it!) well versed in the ways of the Mother Xs of the world and was on to her potential to negatively impact on dd's and my relationships within the school from day one. She has indeed already enlisted a number of the strategies you mentioned (criticizing me to others, suddenly establishing friendships with the parents of kids dd is playing with - people that she 'despised' a day earlier, and so on). I have some tried and tested strategies to deal with such situations (which basically consist of not taking anything she says or does personally, cultivating friendships and, while indicating my disagreement on various issues, being unfaltering in my civility which gives her very little to use) - all of which you no doubt employed too - and while they don't guarantee that I'll avoid all out warfare, they have stood me in good stead so far! But you are spot on; she has the potential to make an unpleasant experience into an horrendous one. Re badgering the parents enough, this little girl has said to dd 'just have a tantrum if you don't get what you want - that's what I do, works every time' and Mother X has told me the same thing! Dd knows me well enough by now not to bother - tantrums don't fly with me, so she hasn't tried this particular tactic

CCN: Thank you, yes the learning opportunity vs bad experience is the line I am trying to walk at the moment. I was wondering if I was mad to be thinking about it as a learning experience, but there are plenty of Girl Xs in the world and to be able to identify them and manage them is a skill worth having. But not at the expense of your own self esteem. I have been forging friendships thick and fast with mums of other girls in the class (much effort for highly introverted me!) and had a couple of other kids over in recent weeks. They have provided a good chance to show dd the difference between being controlled and cooperative play.

KatieMama: Thanks for your kind words. I have raised it with the school, however Girl X has been bullied herself for much of her first two years of school and so they view it at the moment as her finally having a chance to learn social skills... They have assured me they'll keep an eye on it and that dd is playing with other kids too, but I will raise it from time to time and I plan to ask for dd to be placed in a different class next year if things don't change over the remainder of this year (we still have half the school year to go here).

syoblrig: Thanks for your story. It is wonderful that your daughter could see it for what it was. I will try asking dd the same kinds of questions - they give me a great way to frame the discussion (without those kinds of specifics I think dd's been finding my concerns all a bit nebulous).

Thanks again

Hi Giftodd - When my oldest DD was about that age she to had a similar friend. They even shared the same birthday.. The child would come to our house and actually steal from DD. I would make her empty her pockets before she left. My DD was so happy to have a friend specially one born on the same day...a sister... Oh my. Anyways I decided the best way to play it was to go fully for it. I never let my kiddo go to her house without me and for only short times but the child came to mine whenever I could. I feel for children that are in this kind of predicament and I did not think DD was going to keep her distance. I taught the child boundaries, discipline while at my house, proper manners etc. I am rather strict and the threat of being taken home or separated, both kids knowing I meant it, really changed the child in our presence. I do believe at that young they are very moldable. I figure a child living with a parent like the one you are describing, lives with someone who has no concept of self-esteem and has to bring the child down as well. It is not a loving action to role model for children poor social relations. I guess it was the old if you can't beat em join em...but be the leader and the good example and they can learn quickly.

When DD was in 7th grade she made friends with an older girl who was a bit similar as the original girl..She came over for a sleep over and both girls were rude to me. I told the girl right there she had to stop talking to me and to hold her tongue. My DD had to write a report about rudeness especially to elders and parents. She, true to form, wrote a thesis including history etc. It was pretty interesting to read and did the trick for getting the girl out of our lives. Not because of the fear of punishment but DD learned about why rudeness does not work and the rightful place of eldership, respect, and just human kindness for another being. Just for future reference.

Good luck

That is a perfect description of my dd11 as well. I call her a social chameleon. It is a somewhat unfortunate quality in terms of being recognized as gifted in school, though, b/c she doesn't stand out as "different" the way her older sister does and that makes it much less likely that teachers are going to recognize different needs.

I must admit that I've had a much harder time having positive feelings toward our girl x than you have yours. I probably already have a chip on my shoulder about my dd being overlooked for how special she is at school often and I have a really hard time not only with the rudeness and arrogance of our girl x, but also with how she talks down to my dd and acts as if she is stupid. While my dd recognizes the rudeness, she still takes it and doesn't call her out on it. She does, however, complain to me later so I know that she's seeing it. They, fortunately, see a lot less of each other than they did when they were younger.

We, like a pp, no longer have kids at the same schools so I do think that has helped as well. If your girls will be attending the same school long term, it might take a bit longer. We found that having social opportunities where our girl x was not part of the social scene also helped dd make good friends and see how good friends treated her and others. It made the contrast very evident when she'd then be at our girl x's house and seeing girl x hold court with her group of friends and dd.

Do you have any opportunities for your dd to do extracurriculars where she might form some bonds with the other kids and without girl x there?

Wow, Flower! How amazingly patient you were! Kids are not bad seeds...but they learn quickly what they have to get what they need in life, and sometimes that means manipulation, becoming the aggressor, and shutting out vulnerable feelings. You helped her learn there is a different way. I grew up in a very adversarial household where weaknes was exploited. Adults outside of my family taught me that I didn't always need to be so prickly.

I like the idea of explaining the different ways to handle conflict to kids: passive (doing nothing), aggressive (attempting to hurt others physically or emotionally), passive-aggressive (being hurtful in an underhanded way), and assertive (seeking to get your needs met openly but not hurtfully). Sometimes
we have to use differing styles based on conflict (principal confronts you: passive, someone tries to kidnap you: aggressive, etc). I see that 'mean girls' are masters of passive-aggression. The best way to shut town someone who's
using this sharp little tool is to call the aggression out. "I REALLY like your hair (smirk) ." Call out: "The way you said that makes me think you don't. See ya." I practice assertive comebacks with my clients who are dealing with mean girls.

I also think it's fair to recognize most kids play both sides with different friendships. I get really annoyed with anti-bullying programs that tend to
demonify bullies instead of helping us to see we are all potential bullies.

Our efforts with our Girl X weren't really effective, because while she did learn that certain behaviors wouldn't work with us, she decided to focus on manipulating DD into going over to her own house, where our rules did not apply and Girl X had all the power. Once there, GX limited them to only two activities, didn't let DD play with any of her toys, and Mom X involved herself in every argument, where apparently she sided with GX every time. Needless to say, DD didn't like going there.

So that's something to watch out for.

Good! I actually went home and reread half of it last night, thinking about your problem. I think you have what they call a "yo-yo friendship," where X is reveling in her power over your DD. The fact that X has been bullied by others probably makes this extra-delicious for her.

The four steps that they recommend that you apply to every problem are: (1) Observe (2) Connect, (3) Guide (working together to think of possible solutions, and discuss how they might work or not work), and (4) Support to take action.

I think you're doing a fabulous job on observing, because it sounds like you have a really good handle on how everyone is acting and why. It's important to recognize that you cannot change X's behavior, and again, I think you have a good handle on that. It also sounds like you are connecting with your daughter on how she feels about this, although you really can never do too much of that. Try just restating what she tells you without adding judgment or advice. "OK, so you're upset because X tried to take your toy when you haven't played with it yourself yet. What did you say when she said that?" It also helps if you can tell her a story about how you have faced this kind of problem, as long as you don't "steal the focus" away from her problem too much. "When I was a little girl, there was a girl named Marcie who used to sneak stuff out of my lunch bag when I wasn't looking. It made me so mad!" The idea is to reinforce the emotional connection with your daughter, not to tell her to deal with the problem the same way you dealt with Marcie. Work conflicts that you have now can also be good for reinforcing connections, if you can explain them simply. "I worked really hard on a presentation for Friday, and then Justin took some of my slides and used them on Thursday! He made it look like he had done the work, when it was really all mine, and my presentation looked like an anticlimax. I am so mad at him!"

At this point, you and your DD need to go to step 3: work together to think of possible solutions, and talk through whether they would work and how to implement them. Try to get her to supply as many ideas as possible, and you can also slip some into the list. Try to get her to tell you the pros and cons of each idea as much as possible, and try to use her ideas, even if they seem to you like they won't help.

To support her to take action, you need to select one or a few of the ideas you've brainstormed, and then talk about how to put them into effect. Do you need to set up playdates with some different girls? (Have her make the call to invite someone over, even if you have to pick up the extension to confirm it with the other parent.) Do you need to hide stuff before X comes over, or have their playdates at a park or something where there's no personal belongings to fight over? Should you set up some more structured activities for them to do together? You may need to do things like role-play scenarios that you guys have thought up where X acts inappropriately, and help her figure out things to say that will defuse the situation.

Another thing that was mentioned is that you should really try not to let two girls get into a best-friends relationship where they have no other friends, as it gives them too much power over one another. You can talk to the school about putting them in separate classes next year if possible, and try to encourage other friendships. Even if it's too late to affect class assignment for next year, it would be good to be sure that their teacher knows about the dynamic between them, so she can allow for it.

Good luck, and let us know how it's going!

I agree 100%. You don't have to cut off all out-of-school contact (like I did with my DD & her Girl X), but if you "water down" the influence and power of your DD's Girl X with other friendships, it will really help.

We've had experience with a Girl X.

When I started seeing much of the same behaviors as detailed above, I pointed them out to DD (now 11, but we noticed it when she was around 9 and had just met this friend).

I asked DD "do you think she's being a good friend when she does stuf like that?" or "are you happy when you never get to win and she changes the rules?"

I didn't think it would be very helpful to play the mommy card and just cut off contact with the other kid, so I worked on showing my kid that it wasn't a healthy friendship, and curbing contact where it wasn't noticeable.

The more aware DD became of the inequalities, the more she started putting her foot down. I don't think kids are born knowing what's a healthy friendship and what's not-they have to learn both from the positive ones and the negative ones.

Of course, the more she put her foot down, the less friendly the other kid became. My kid was sad, because she could sense the loss of attention from the other kid, and I was sort of like, well, she's not really looking for a friend, she's looking for a minion. Do you really want to be her minion?

The good thing is, the more confidence DD gains in herself, the less interested she is in hanging with Girl X.

So now they're "friendly" but not "friends" anymore, and DD has moved on to other friendships.

We've also got a Girl X! She enjoys rejecting her friends to make herself feel powerful. Weirdly, the parents are not particularly dysfunctional, other than being a bit spineless. I suspect that Girl X learned it from her older sister, who learned it at public school, and the parents have never effectively intervened.

Worse, my daughter (Hanni) and Girl X are only 4. They are at a small preschool together so there is no way for them to be kept apart. And Hanni is too young to have any perspective on the situation. Even if she agrees logically that friends shouldn't be mean, the emotional pull of wanting to be loved by this girl is just too strong.

Girl X is away for two months, and it's a huge relief, but I'm dreading when she comes back. Hanni has other friends, but nothing like the intensity she feels for Girl X. She continues to talk about Girl X and call her her "best friend." And Girl X's time away from the group will probably just intensify her need for emotional control.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

I checked out some books from the library yesterday. They didn't have the one mentioned above (Little Girls Can Be Mean), but I'm reading Odd Girl Out. And I have to say, IT'S NOT HELPING. It's just making me angry.