I'm interested to hear about your opinions on class size and accomodations/acceleration in non-gifted schools. DD 8.5 is just finishing grade 3 at a small school. Her current class has 19 students. Though they have 'talked the talk', very little has been done in terms of acceleration or differentiation of work for her. The staff at the current school are lovely but it has been a disappointing year. Today, I went to the school in the area we have recently moved into and met with the principal. He is young and enthusiastic and very excited to meet her. He really wants her to transfer for the last month of school so they can get to know her. The kicker is that, based on current numbers, there will be one grade 4 class next year with 32 students. My stomach sunk when he told me this. I am taking her for a tour later this week.

On one hand, a friend teaches at this school and raves about it (her son is autistic and attends this school as well, so she has two different perpsectives). On the other, I cannot help but wonder what will happen to my unmotivated, inattentive ADD child who thinks school is just a waste of time anyway. Now we are second guessing our decision to move her. Or maybe we need to start checking out private schools. I mean, hey, my kid is worth selling a kidney for, right? Feeling a little frustrated right now. Thanks for listening.

This is what I am hoping to hear. Thank you for the question suggestions. I am taking her for a tour on Thursday and will get a chance to speak with the principal again then.

Thank you for asking this! We too are second guessing school placement for the fall based on class size. DS4.5 will be in K, with 24 students and no aide. It's not as big as your class, but still, 24 kindergarteners seems a little excessive, IMO. It's a gifted school, so I'm hoping the class size isn't too much of an issue.


I guess I don't have any advice, I just wanted to commiserate!

Class size is everything at our private, non-gifted school. DS6 had 9 total kids in his kindergarten class. This year he's in a class of 10 kids, who range in age from 6-9. Because there are so few kids in a class, the teachers are able to develop an individualized curriculum for each of them. Some kids are ahead, some are behind, and some are ahead in a few areas but at grade level in the rest, but the teachers manage to meet everyone at his/her level in both math and language arts. Anything close to this would be impossible at our local public school, where there are 24+ kids in a class. I can't imagine how any poor teacher would manage a class of 32.

Feeling your pain! DD7's 2nd grade class size is 31 at her public, non-gifted school. The only acceleration she gets is harder take-home spelling lists. She spends a lot of time sitting and waiting for other kids to finish tasks, during which she sneaks in reading a book.

We can't expect better from this school. The only teacher aides are parents who volunteer. But apparently there is another school in the district where many parents of gifted children send their children. Even though the classes are still large there, up to half of the class might be gifted which could help a great deal. We might look at that school but it would require moving, again.

I don't have any advice either, but will note that our biggest mistake was accepting at face value what our district and school websites said about their gifted and talented program. We later discovered it was outdated and largely untrue.

My dd10 had 19 kids in her 4th grade class. Due to budget cuts, they reduced from four classes to three this year and they added 10+ kids to the grade. That led to all of the 5th grade classes having btwn 30-32 students this year.

My dd, like yours, has ADD, is not highly motivated, and gets overlooked in large classes b/c she doesn't cause problems. However, she underachieves, but not enough to draw attention b/c, for her, underachievement is performing like an average - high average kid.

The only way this year was tenable was due to a GT teacher who is something like .6 FTE. She works only with the 4th and 5th graders and dd goes to her class every day for both math and reading. So, she is with a smaller group of about 15-20 kids for both of those subjects. It would take a really, really good teacher with some creative approaches and a lot of parent volunteers IMHO to make a mixed ability grouping of 30+ kids work for a 2e kid.

Some of classroom size has to do with the teacher.
My son's second grade class (public school) has 26 kids. The teacher is incredible, and she has excellent order in the class. She seems to have a very good handle on what each kid is doing. His (private school) kindergarten class had only 10 kids in it but the teacher was awful- disorganized, poor teaching, etc. So... It does vary too based on the teacher.
I do think at some point the class size can get too big and you will likely get more discipline issues, etc.
In my son's school in every class, they use something called Surround Sound. It's where the teacher wheres a clip-on microphone and it transmits her voice through overhead speakers in the class. It makes her voice a little louder. That way, she doesn't have to shout to get the kids' attention. Studies show that reading scores, etc. go up with that. It's good if the class is too big also.

I agree with what the others have said about the teacher making the difference. I would also say that the relative LOGs of the other kids makes a difference. If there is a huge range, it is more work for the teacher. My DS7 transferred midyear from a local nonGT school with 22 kids to a school for HG kids, where he makes the 29th. My DS is thriving at the new school, but probably most of it has to do with a teacher who was willing to take on another kid, who really gets HG kids, and who groups kids by ability. In our school within a school, a planned extra class in I think 4th didn't happen, so that classroom has 34 kids! I visited the classroom, and that teacher also seemed amazing. So for us, there has been no downside to the big class size, since everything else has been so positive (learning with intellectual peers, getting in reading groups at his level with peers, learning appropriate math, etc., etc.).

I recommend asking lots of questions on the tour. Ask the students too, "What's it like being in such a big class? Is there anything you miss?"

And this is why I am afraid for DD. She sounds quite a bit like your DD. Unfortunately, there are no gifted programs/teachers she can access. Any acceleration is at the discretion of the teacher.

We have been tossing around the idea of trying to homeschool. It is difficult to know if I could swing it due to my work schedule. I work full-time hours but the shifts vary from 9-24 hrs so I often have many days off in a row. My suspicion is that I could homeschool her part-time and she would still get more out of it than in a large class. Not sure I could handle all the work involved or that I want to risk the head-butting involved (the two of us do not work well together). I guess I am going to have to be the over-eager classroom volunteer to start off with.

I'm sorry - I read too fast and didn't see your original question was about non-GT schools. My posting is totally irrelevant! Sorry. I can say that the local nonGT school did finally do a lot for my kid, after a lot of advocacy, but it was a lot more work and stress than lucking into a spot at the GT school.

You say your DD feels that school is a waste of time. I know you've posted here before, but I can't remember - has your DD skipped a grade? Is that a possibility, or subject acceleration maybe? Once my DS got more appropriate levels of work at the local nonGT school, I heard less of the "I hate schools." (and even less now at the GT school).

I would keep investigating the PT homeschooling, but you might also consider some PT options within the classroom. Are there particular subjects she's very advanced in? Could she do some online work? Or could someone come in and tutor her in a subject?

Good luck with the decision making. I know it's hard.

I do think that a big class size can work well. In our very highly-rated public school system, all four of my kids have been in bigger and smaller classrooms (and yes, over 30). My two oldest are in college now, and honestly, what has made the difference more than class size OR teacher is the principal. Having a principal who advocates for differentiation and acceleration has been key. That way, it works EVERY year, not just the year you get a small class or a good teacher. My PG dd20 got little-to-no differentiation. My ds9 is in 3rd grade and is working out of the 6th grade math book, after being put into the 5th grade regular math class and finishing the work. The principal worked with the gifted coordinator and the classroom teacher and came up with a plan from "Developing Math Talent" to help our youngest grow in math. That made more of a difference than a small class!

Here are my thoughts about what you need to know:
1) what is the state cutoff for class size. What happens if they go over in November? Will they split the classes, add an aide, etc??
2) How welcome are parent volunteers? My ds11's 4th grade class had 32 kids but the teacher had tons of differentiation and parent volunteers every single day for core subjects.
3) Can your dd subject accelerate to a different grade for any subjects?
4) With only one class, how is differentiation handled? Can your dd do independent projects? Can she have a mentor? Can she get *different*-not extra- work?
5) if your dd is on a 504/IEP plan, can you meet the case manager? How are special needs handled? Can you talk to the potential teacher to get his/her take on things?
6) If your dd thinks that school is a waste of time, also check things like homework policy, "busy" work, etc... One of the things my boys love about our current school is that homework is limited and rarely busywork. If you do well on spelling, there are no "packets" of work (if you start to fail, then there are). If you know the math, it's okay to say, "this was really easy, so I just did the first three problems, and then I felt like I knew it." There's a lot of latitude for good students.

As far as homeschooling, I do think it can work wonders, but I wouldn't do it just because you feel you have to. Your dd can go to school and do a very minimal amount of "extra" at home and still come away with a lot. Some days my sons get socialization, listening and orchestra out of the day, but that's okay (most days they do learn :)). I honestly know it wouldn't work for me to homeschool and I think we'd all kill each other... well, no, my kids are better-natured than me. I'd be the screaming lunatic.

Hang in there and go to the tour with an open mind. I know class size is important, but it's not all there is. A good school with bigger classes might trump a smaller disinterested school.
Good luck- Theresa

I'm with you. It will never be my first choice, just keeping the option open if all else fails. We live in Canada and in our province there are only class size caps on grades P-3. At this school, the current grade 3 class is split into a 2/3 class and a 3/4 class. Once the cap ends, they all get shoved together. I have never heard of a class that size in our area... EVER! Thank you for the questions suggestions, as well. She has ADHD accomodations but not a formal IEP because it was deemed that she didn't 'need' one.

This new principal seems very eager and excited to find a way to motivate her. Crossing fingers that the feeling lasts. I am discovering that very few people want to help the underachieving smart child. Grade skipping is not an option because all of her achievement scores (except reading and math reasoning) are only slightly better than average. Frustratingly, she just won't show what she knows. I will ask to meet with her teacher for next year and try to get a sense as to what life for a 2E in a large class will be like for DD.

My DD is in a class of 11 and has received almost no differentiation at all. You'd think that small class size would help, but it appears not to.

My kids are in a school that has 32 kids in a class. The limit is supposed to be 30 but there are classes that have 32. There is a teacher and an aide though in the lower grades. It's not the class size you need to worry about, it's how well the teacher is with that class size. My one child's teacher is phenomenal and what she can do with a class this size amazes me! Every child has differentiated curriculum. I don't know how she does it. The other classes work well also. I also am in one of these classes all week and it's not an issue. The ones that need help, get it, the ones that don't, get work more at their level. Don't let it worry you too much.

Around here, the class sizes may go up to the mid 20s or so, but they would have an aide for the earlier grades. I think that a class size over 30, with a single teacher, would decrease the likelihood of providing certain types of differentiation, e.g. curriculum compacting, but might not affect others so much.

My worries, exactly. School tour is tomorrow morning. Crossing my fingers that the new teacher is enthusiastic, organized and flexible.

The tour went well today. DD's anxiety was pretty high, but the principal and vice-principal were great with her. They arranged a for a group of girls in her grade to give her a tour of the school. She got to meet her teacher for next year and she seems really nice (so far anyway!).

My friend, who teaches at the school and has an autistic son in the same grade, pulled me aside to talk about the class size. She said to keep voicing our displeasure because she thinks they are reconsidering having just the one class now that DD will be joining. It may be 'too much' for one teacher with DD and her son in a class of that size. We silently high-fived for having high-needs kids. Here's hoping!

On another note, the principal managed to convince DD to switch to the new school for the last three weeks of school (but return to old school on last day for report card). She REALLY needs to just go to the school so she can stop stressing about it. I think they want to get a feel for her for next year, which is a-okay by me.

Just a quick update. DD loves her new school. She was put in a 3/4 split for the last three weeks and she is really enjoying it. The teacher is young and keen and when I spoke with her said that DD could do any of the grade 4 work she felt like. She also arranged to have an extra keyboard made available to DD so she could type whatever she needed to. Something to be said for the flexibility that occurs at the end of the school year. Let's just hope it extends to the new year!

On an 'I'm getting grey hair' note, DD is very excited to finally be taking a school bus... and more so because there is a 'super cute' grade 4 boy who sits next to her and chats her up.