they seriously said to me that all kids belong "in the box" and that gifted kids need to learn to fit in the box in order to function in society. and since school is a "system" gifted kids needed to learn to function in the system. am i wrong for thinking that a gifted kid, admitted to school a year early, with an IEP, who requires gifted services, compacted presentation of new material, who is reading 4 years above grade level and doing math 3 years above grade level does not need to "get in the box?" i am angry they would even suggest he needs to "learn" to sit in a desk and draw t's when he is capable of writing entire paragraphs with proper spelling and punctuation. go tell the inventors and brilliant scientists of the world to stop coming up with new ideas and get back in the box where they belong. GRRRRR....

btw.....i think if you manage to get a gifted kid "in the box", they will just come up with 18 new ways to get out of a box.

yup. btdt. i had a director tell me that my ds had to complete a series of about 4 workbooks (about 100 pages each) teacher phonics and letter awareness even though he is completely reading...as in can read the teachers manual for the workbooks themselves. they told us that he needs to learn that just because something is dull, does not mean you do not do it...even if its 400 pages of work and he is 5. they said he needs to work on "his work ethic." then they told us he has behavioral problems because he gets upset when he has to do it, and is fresh because he tells the teacher that it is boring.

its maddening, i know....

It's just ludicrous. You are absolutely right to be outraged. And you are right about finding 18 ways to get out of the box.

"He just needs to deal with not learning anything new; after all, he will have to deal with being bored when he goes out and gets a job!" was one of the administration comments (during an IEP meeting for a 5 year old) that lead to homeschooling for us.

I knew that, regardless of what the teacher did or didn't do, my boy would find a way to be interested in something in class, but that the ways he would come up with on his own to be interested probably wouldn't be ones the school would approve of. I knew that homeschooling would be easier than spending my life in the principal's office either continually advocating to get them to do the right thing or else continually dealing with the fallout from DS finding some way to make the classroom "interesting".

I second your AAAAAHHHH, momma2many!

But I have to say the analogy just makes no sense to me - obviously - but also in terms of what they were saying. Is there just one box? Is there a box for each grade level? Is there a separate box for SN and LDs? do we all have to wear the same shoe size too? Why can't DS go to the grade 4 box?

But seriously, if this is what they told you, considering he is is gifted with an IEP, how long do they think it will take him to learn how to sit at a desk. He could practice that, in a box, with the age mates, and then go learn in the right box??

And this was the director!!!!

The more i type the more annoyed I get so I can't imagine how irritated you are!!!

DeHe

LOL.... does this person know my spouse, by any chance??

HowlerKarma, now you know your spouse's superhero/supervillain secret alter-identity! The only thing left is to find the secret lair with the really cool car and the tacky costume...

ROFL!!

The, er.... SLUG-cave, as it were?

right? i think she thinks the box is ONE box that represents following lock step the path that all peers around you are following at any given time. because otherwise i would agree with what you say...if there are many boxes, then he just needs to find his place in another box. she talks like there is ONE box, or one right way, and gifted kids need to adjust to all of the other students in the class, rather than being allowed to...oh, i don't know....follow their IEP. i have asked before about him going to other grades for certain classes, and i have been told that he needs to learn to be with his grade level peers. i just want to shout WHY WHY WHY???? i have been told that he needs to learn to sit and do worksheets that are redundant because that is "real life", and that he wasn't allowed to have enrichment on the computer because "the other kids can't" (as in they don't know how to do the things DS knows how to do) and it might make them feel bad.

Oh yes ... get in the box. Wonder why we have such problems with our educational system? Perhaps because we have sold our children short with comments like that!

And I hope your comment about finding 18 new ways to get out of the box is true but lots of gifted children won't. I know my DD is the type that will sit quietly in that box and wait until someone opens it up for her and this is why we can never allow her to get into that box. We witnessed it first hand when we signed her up for a social preschool and is why we pulled her and went the academic route. She has to be challenged or she wilts. Even in her academic school where they are 2 years ahead of public she is still more advanced than the curriculum but she will patiently sit there and wait until the teacher offers up the curriculum and fly through it with no problems because she already knew it by age 2. We are doing everything in our power to ensure she doesn't sit in a box.

That is such a beautiful description of my own dd. I am going to save it as inspiration next time I am wondering if I should just get over the fact that dd isn't being accommodated. Thanks

"Put the bunny back in the box!" LMAO!

I feel for you. I would have had to be pulled bodily off of the person who said that.

We just had the gifted school administrator say almost the same thing. Tell your son to wait. Tell him he has to learn self regulation. Tell him this is all he gets for now. A GIFTED "expert" saying this stuff hurts more than regular administrators or regular people ( or husbands ha ha). BLAH! Nan

The more I think about it, the more I think we parents need to stop trying to engage these people in discussion about why this is wrong, illogical, contrary to the known facts, cruel, etc. That just gives them the opportunity to obfuscate till we're exhausted.

I think we should stop the discussion cold with "That's not your job." My kid needs to learn a work ethic? Not your job. My kid needs to learn to deal with boredom? Not your job. Your job is to teach my child academics, full stop. What are you doing to teach her academics?

I agree with Meg, but that's usually when they counter with the "We teach to the whole child." I haven't figured out what to say next that is going to get the conversation back on track. I'm guessing that answering with, "Oh, I didn't realize my child was broken," is going to work out too well.

Interesting Meg. I'd love to know if anyone has tried this and what resulted from it.

My first thought is to respond with something about religion - so they will object (one would hope!) that they cannot teach anything of a spiritual or religious nature. With that, a parent can say, "right, that's MY job," and then segue to other aspects of "the whole child" that the school is not charged with addressing.

If these are public schools, have you looked into state policies for gifted students? Our school district was just found to be out of compliance with state policy following a complaint filed by a group of district parents. It is hoped that this ruling will have significant implications in our district (although in my experience, the "box" advocates, on an individual basis, have very deeply held beliefs that will not be swayed by this ruling).

If other options have run out, this sort of complaint is a strategy others may want to consider.

#1...katelyn's mom....i get it. most times ds would get out of the box....but there are times that he just spins his wheels doing what everyone else is doing because he doesn't feel like he can or is supposed to say something. he spends enough time "in the box" without really saying anything for himself....but then the school wants to know why he acts out, or dismisses himself to the cubby room to do something else. lol. um...maybe because he doesn't need to write t's! lol.

#2...."We teach to the whole child." yeah....ours says something similar. i'm not sure what that means exactly.....maybe next time i'll ask her to explain that. our school also says that advancement isn't always necessary because they also want to pull a child deeper. as in....even though he is reading at a 4th grade level we are still going to give him kindergarten books with few words to talk about things like plot and setting. um....because 4th grade books don't have those elements? i just feel like they are really great at coming up with excuses as to why they won't differentiate.

and yes....this is a public school. they are out of compliance with his IEP 100%. i don't really know what to do about it.

Momma, first step is probably to report to the principal (in writing, keep a copy) how and why they are out of compliance. If the principal ignores you, there should be a procedure through your state's dept. of ed. for filing a complaint-- just be sure of what is in the law before you write it up.

The Wrightslaw website is good on technicalities, and keyword-searchable...

DeeDee

YES.


Look for your copy of procedural safeguards, and begin letter-writing your way through the complaint process.

I like this. I also would add that "learning to deal with boredom" is best applied to tasks with a beneficial result, such as cleaning one's room or sweeping the kitchen floor. What is the benefit of doing academic work that isn't even remotely challenging? I suspect that forcing a child to do mindless work is not good for brain development.

And of course, what we're really talking about in a situation like this may be rooted in, "I don't want to do extra work."

This whole child stuff is bogosity. IMHO, it's just another way for edumacators to focus on fluff instead of substance.

I love the Meg's response to the "whole child" stuff! The same principal who told us too bad and to wait also used that line. She made it sound like her school was so unique in doing that (trying to develop the whole child) and I see from these other comments that she is just following the We Will Not Accelerate party line.

Bogosity indeed!

i clearly I haven't faced this level of crazy yet (DS is just 5) but could someone explain how you could be "teaching the whole child" by IGNORING a rather large part of the whole child?

So if our DCs are pie charts - what percentage are they allocating to learning stuff they don't yet know, is it bigger than the "sit at desk" slice? I am still stunned by that - do we grade on how well one sits at desk? The idea of prioritizing sitting, standing, being quiet to the degree that learning is dismissed out of hand, just makes me crazy - and no one has said it to me yet!!!

Although, truthfully I do often think at dinner time as DS slides out of his chair for the 4000000 time, that perhaps a lesson on how to stay in it might be helpful LOL - but this is like saying I shouldn't give him dinner until he learns to do it perfectly!!

I wonder if this is ultimately an effort to deny asynchrony. Basically all kids develop at the same rate but are not equally good so Johnny needs more work on sitting while Jane needs confidence and Sam needs to improve in math. But Johnny is not "ahead" of Sam in math despite being able to do grade levels ahead?

DeHe

Honestly, and this is just one person's opinion, I'm not sure that people who say this kind of stuff have really thought anything through in any depth or even at all. My guess is that these statements could just be an excuse to ignore something while also avoiding having to deal with a difficult problem. They could be akin to that way of meaning "No" when saying "I'll keep your idea under advisement."



Val

Yes, I think it is just a platitude, albeit one that the speaker may actually subscribe to on some level.

Teachers are grossly underpaid and overworked-- no doubt. Schools are asked to expand their basic mission CONSTANTLY, and to be more and more inclusive in doing so.

It's not a surprise to me that drinking the Kool-Aid is a self-preservationist tactic among many school teachers and administrators as a result.

its probably just me but I would much rather hear - "I'll keep your idea under advisement." but I really mean no, rather than spouting stuff that if practiced is harmful IMO. And I bet the next platitude will be something about working up to your full potential - I always hated that one!

DeHe

Or maybe "the system" is made for people who need a system in order to function in society.

Yes. Since dd is at a girls school, I have started calling this the "Which American Girl Doll Are You?" syndrome.

I did. It resulted in homeschooling-LOL! Warning, rant:

My DD's 10th grade English teacher stated that my daughter needed to "learn a work ethic in order to survive in the real world, because after all in the real world you have to do boring work to keep your job".

This teacher informed me that it was her job to teach my DD this, since I was clearly was failing to do so. (This teacher actually twisted the rules in order to fail my DD so she could "teach" my DD and the rest of the class the importance of "work ethic")*

It resulted in Twilight-Zone sort of meeting with the Assistant Principal, the counselor and the teacher (who was so busy she could only stop in for a moment). The teacher turned red and was actually spitting. After she left, the other school officials nodded indicating that they agreed the teacher was out of line but said it would just be easier for everyone if we just accepted it and allowed the teacher to fail my DD, assuring me that my DD could breeze through the self-paced summer school make-up class in one day...so no harm done!

Ultimately it resulted in my withdrawing my daughter from school and homeschooling via community college classes.

*long story, but the ISD policy stated no more than 20% of the course grade could be based on homework and my DD made 100's on all in-class work and tests. My DD was also the only student in the class to score higher than 63% on the pre-AP practice exam (she scored 97%), this did not sit well with the teacher who stated that it was unfair and sent the wrong message to the "hard-working students" in her class. She then stated that "tests are really not a good measure of what students know".

This teacher also claimed that because my DD had not turned in any homework, she really didn't know if my DD understood the material and had concerns that my DD might not. I suggested that my DD stay after school to work one-on-one with the teacher until the teacher was satisfied . The teacher then said this was not necessary, she knew that my DD clearly got the material but that wasn't enough, she needed to get with the program. AAAAHHHHHHHRRRGGGHHHHH

Wow Nik, that is just horrendous!!! I am just flabbergasted that a teacher would get that personal with a student (except I am not), but it just seems so over the top. And then to actually have some higher authority say just accept it and do summer school - why should your dd have an F, that is ludicrous. I wonder if the teacher was actually afraid your dd knew more than she did. This story is really worthy of that red faced guy - which is a really startling icon!!!

I hope things are better and this hasn't stuck too much with your dd - I hope the only lesson learned is that you back away slowly and calmly from rabid animals (particularly when spitting!)

DeHe

Yikes! I would be homeschooling too after that kind of experience.

Don't you sometimes wish that folks would just say:" I don't like your child and you can't make me treat her fairly" Instead of going through all this headspinning verbiage?

The teacher made it clear that she felt the other children were being harmed in some way by seeing that your DD didn't have to work to handle the material much better than they do. Perhaps she is right, and this is just one more reason that kids who need to work at a 'higher than age predicted' level need to be placed in classrooms where kids who are at the same 'ready to learn' level are already sitting. My guess is that you would have had to actually change buildings to find these kids - and that that is exactly what you did.

Do I think that 10th grade students are still too young to maturely understand that 'everyone has different strengths and weaknesses and it's ok to have different strengths and weaknesses than the person sitting next to you as long as you keep working to develop yourself?'

I wouldn't be suprised if 10th grade students are too young for this - but I hope not by very much.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

LOL, I was surprised at my own restraint for letting that woman live.

Actually, this whole experience really turned my DD's life around for the better because it finally opened my eyes to just how bad things were for her at school. For way too long I just assumed she was just a bit bored and lazy but getting by without complaint.



YEP!

All's well that ends well though: DD is heading to her dream college this fall with a renewed self confidence and enthusiasm for learning.

Ack! I just had a flashback to 10th grade math!

The teacher didn't seem to me to put that much emphasis on the homework because it wasn't checked daily or graded, you were just supposed to put it in a folder and then you got credit for turning it in. So I didn't see much reason to do it. Toward the end of the semester she called me aside and told me that she noticed I hadn't turned in any of the assignments and that I needed to complete them or it would count against my grade. You'd think logic would work on the math teacher, but for some reason the fact that I had 99% on the tests without doing one of the hundreds of problems she'd assigned didn't show that I had mastery of the material, instead it just really irritated her. I remember at some point asking if I could move into a higher math class (which is weird in retrospect because I don't like math) and she told me that she couldn't do that for someone who didn't do the homework.

These must be techniques that they learn in "How to teach 10th Grade"

ROFL...


Painfully true.

If my mom were alive, perhaps I could ask her. I had a math teacher say that very thing to my mother and me (yes, I was actually PRESENT, so I know what was said) at a tenth grade conference. "Well, I just don't like Howler much. <shrug> What can you do, right?" No, I'm not kidding. (My mother was a career public school teaher in another district. She was speechless, since she had, until that moment, really thought that I was "the problem" in that class. She asked 'what the problem was' in the class that I seemed to be flirting with a D grade even though I knew the material well); well, he told her.

Points for honesty, I suppose. At least my mom apologized to me-- which was a first, and one of the only times.



Kind of sucked that he was the only instructor that taught math beyond trig at my high school, but my mother did at least find a way to get me OUT of having to take another class from him-- ever. He was a total tool.

So I'm not sure that's any better than the passive-aggressive nastiness, fwiw. LOL.


ETA: Huh... 10th grade Curiouser and curiouser.
__________________________


I agree entirely that this alone is a good reason for ability grouping, too. I can definitely appreciate that it is pretty demoralizing to have to work really really hard and sit next to someone who is obviously bored and still acing the class.

What do you call a nerd when they are forty?

Boss!!



LOL..could not resist.

http://www.clipartguide.com/_pages/0060-0807-1604-4019.html


Seriously, you should ask this woman when her family stopped burning witches...

And hopefully DD has learned that she can go to adults for help when things are 'too much' and be heard and helped. Not a bad way to prepare for college life. I'm so glad to hear that things turned out well. I've learned to be very grateful for some very difficult experiences.

Yippee!
Grinity