my daughter is in 2nd grade and scored in 99th percentile in her IQ and many other areas. We are meeting in 6 days for GIEP. I was hoping for her to have increased differtiatal instruction in her classrom and not only attend the gifted program. Ideas on how I should present that?

Hi PAmom,
Welcome!
Are you in Pennsylvania? Excellent news if you are - there are actually laws and systems in place to meet the needs of gifted children.

Here are my questions -
Do you have any idea of LOG (level of giftedness)? If you feel comfortable, post the subtest scores here, if not perhaps run them by Dottie in a PM (private message)
The basic question is this: 'Is she 'one of a handful' of 2nd graders, or is she like 'Thomas Jefferson dining alone?'

If she is one of a handful, then it's reasonable to ask that the handful be gotten together for various reading and math groups throughout the day for instruction that is faster and deeper than the other kids, but with differentiation there is often the built in hope that the kids who get the differentiation will somehow not learn anything that is planned to be presented to the next grade up, and yet their need to learn in their readiness level will somehow be satisfied. So that's why it's important to have an idea of what the readiness to learn level is in the first place.

Why differentiated instruction and not subject accelerations or whole grade skips? Differentiated instruction should be given to every student at every level in every grade, in fact the school probably think that they are already providing differentiated instruction because they appeal to various learning styles, or have extra homework sheets to do during math time if they 'finish their seatwork early' - parents call this the 'MOTS' approach, (More of the Same) - if the child can do two digit addition - that what about a page full of 3 digit addition problems? How about doing that for 8 weeks? Ug!

At some level the underlying problem often come down to this - gifted children often think abstractly at a younger than expected age. Teachers are trained to see children as only capable of learning concretely. I haven't figured out a way around this.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Hi Grinity

Yes we are in PA.

Her scores are full IQ 135 (99%) GAI 138 (99%) percentile. Verbal comprehension 134 (99%) Perceptual Reasoning 97% Working memory 86% Precessing Speed 97%. In Numerical operations she was 95%.

Thereason for the differentiated instuction is she has told me she is bored (why I asked she be tested) but also I had asked her 2nd grade teacher in October (before the testing) if my daughter can have harder reading assignments - to this date still none done

Can you give me direction? Our meeting is Monday at 8:15 but any help you can give before or after will be helpful.

Thanks
PAMOM

Is she old for her grade or young for her grade?
Can you get ahold of the Iowa Acceleration scale manal before the meeting?
Is there any standardized testing done for her age group so you can see if there is a peer group in her grade or if she needs a gradeskip ti get that?
Do you have family members who got grade skipped/ If so how did that turn out?
Do you have family members who did get gifted accomidations but needed them...if so how did that turn out?

How many hours a week is the gifted program? What grade does it st
How di you feel about the idea of asking for a grace skip? I fell that it isn't the ideal way to go but it is often the least worst option.

She is young - she is born August 23. (cut off Sept 1) - some people are 14-15 months ahead.

Do not know how to get the Iowa Acceleration scale manual - how will that help?

I do not think they have standarized test for her grade - think that starts in 3rd

GIft program in 1/2 day a week

My husband skipped a grade (but in India) - not crazy about the idea b/c she is already young for 2nd grade and also she is petite. Why are you thinking that?

PA Mom,

This is not a quick process. Unfortunately without getting into the specifics of your situation I probably will sound too vague. If you want to go into more detail, that's fine. You can PM me if you want. At this point I've very familiar with the PA process.

First thing is that I will tell you that there's a good chance your first meeting will be a bit of a let down. I'll make a few assumptions here, so correct me if I'm wrong. You probably made a the official "request" to get evaluated and triggered the testing. By law they have to give an IQ test. The second step of the process involves determining whether or not your child is considered gifted and whether or not their needs are being met by the current environment. (You can be gifted, but they can argue that your DC's needs are being met.) Then after being ID'ed you go through the IEP phase. Sometimes (as in our case) they'll combine those two steps although they're not really supposed to. If you just think about the fact that you're trying to get help for your DC then it doesn't really matter all that much.

Creating the IEP is supposed to be a collaborative process but I have not met a parent yet where that is really the case. You're on the team, and you're supposed to provide input. After reviewing the IEP you have a number of days to approve it or not approve it. Generally you can get some revisions in the IEP without having to escalate the process. (People go to mediation because they don't get a reasonable IEP or because the IEP does not get implemented properly). If your school has a G/T program they will probably discuss that with you, especially since your child meets the 130 cut off for PA.

The advice that I would give you is:

1) They are supposed to provide the solution(s). You approve or not. If they haven't addressed the issue to your satisfaction then tell them so (politely). We have made some suggestions on what our DS was ready for be we let them come up with solutions and it has worked very well for us.

2) Be patient. It's going to take time if you're going outside the normal G/T program.

3) You don't have to sign off on the IEP right there although you may be asked to. Take your time. You have something like 5 or 10 days (I forget--they will tell you).

4) Focus on the one area at a time. If you want enrichment in the G/T program, see if that is what they are presenting. If you think your child needs more in math or maybe in reading, ask about that.

Good luck! PA is good in that there is a framework in place but unfortunately it's not entirely a benign procedure!

JB

Thanks JBDAD - your info was helpful. Suggestions on how to approach outside the gifted program? How do I know what grade level she is working at?
Would it be reasonable to show some worksheets outside of class & ask what grade level they teach that.
I saw in 1 of your blog you were able to have your son tested in math in 3rd and 4th grade level- how did you do that?

I think bringing in some work sheets in math and reading is a good idea.
You should be able to ask the school to give end of year type tests so they can see where she is.
I am asking about subject accelerations because teachers are human and overworkred...what makes more sence to you...asking a teacher to write a whole seperate curriculum for one child or moving the child to a room where that curriculum is being taught?
On the other hand if there truly are a handful of other kids who are ready for advanced work and she can do that work with the others with some guidance from the teacher then maybe differentiation is worth persuing.

Your daughters scores are quite high so it varys widely from district to distric if she might have peers in her current grade.

You might have IAS Manual in your local library or school library or the gifted coordinator might have one. I recommend reading it because it is a research supported way to decide if a skip is a good idea and has lots of interesting info. The problem you may run into is that the school folks may not have enough Math backround to understand the results of the IQ test and think that she has reasonable peers when she doesn't.

I am not at all worried that she is young to start with and petite. I worry more that a single skip might not be enough and shell need some additional subject accelerations. You didn't mention if she is socially happy with her current grade but she might be even happier with kids who are in the next grade up necause they have a better chance of getting her jokes.

Love and more love
Grinity

The most important thing about your IEP is establishing the PLEP which is what you are asking. PLEP: Present Level of Education Performance. Until that that is established you don't really know where your DC is at. That is what we did (along with some strong urging to do out of level testing to establish the PLEP). You cannot get a PLEP from current grades. Ask lots of questions until you are satisfied that you have a good understanding of your DC's PLEP.

Google for PA Gifted, PLEP, IEP, and you will likely find other resources that will be helpful. And continue to ask questions.

Our journey was a three year one. We are very happy with where we ended up (just this year) but unfortunately our experience is not typical. Our son eventually was radically subject accelerated (he is a DYS). Our solution is not necessarily the right solution for everyone. We're just familiar with the process.

JB

This is very true. We had one super star teacher that made real differentiation work. But she was a super star (and even then it didn't work every day... *AND* her peers were not always supportive). Subject acceleration IMO is a better option. But also you DC may benefit from G/T enrichment. This first meeting is going to be a lot of seeing what they have to offer.

JB

How did it go?

JB

It went ok. I decided to follow your advice and just listen. The gifted teacher is very nice and seems knowledgeable (and excited) They did listen to us. They also pointed out that while my daughter scorred 99% percentile in IQ- she scored 97% and 95% (in reading and math) and that she would still benefit from schoolwork in class( no acceleration) because she falls in above average and not superior range.

They do have some personalized instruction set out. While that was not typed out we did sign the PIEP b/c we did want her to get started. I think I will observe the next couple of months and know next grade to push her teacher and then ask to redo her PIEP. I will also ask for subject evaluation in her third grade. Did not wnat to be too pushy the first time around

Thanks for the advice!
Also since you are in PA - is there any pther websites you find useful ?

They did numerical operations only. Can I ask for "math reasoning" - can I ahve her rested next year? She is already in gifted program but they do not do any accelerated math with her.

THANKS
pamom

Thanks Dottie

So the original problem was that she was bored. I would monitor this on a weekly basis and see if the problem is solved 'enough.' I think you need to keep the teacher in the loop so that after about a month, she has some idea if it's working. Of course, perhaps it will work and wouldn't that be wonderful, but I wouldn't delay to report if it isn't working. Try to get into your mind that you aren't being 'pushy' you are helping the school to fulfill it's mission by doing your duty as a parent - which is to close the feedback loop.

It's wonderful if a child is able to behave well and make the best of things even while being unchallenged, but that child shouldn't be penalized for their good behavior - which is why parents have a duty to 'close the feedback loop' and keep their children's school informed if things are actually working or not.

Love and More Love,
Grinity