I was curious what everyone's experience or observation has been...Would you regard the number of Nat'l Merit Scholarship semifinalist/finalist a particular high school produces an indication of its general academic excellence? Or could it be a function of the school having a high concentration of high achievers from the start?

Our local paper recently published the names of the Natl Merit Scholarship semifinalists from our region and while most HS only produced 2-3, one HS had 15. Now, that particular HS with 15 is known to have a very rigorous IB program, so it attracts the high-achieving kids anyway from the tri-county area.

The reason why I ask, and I'm sure it really depends on the case...is that in couple years, my DD will have to make the decision of choosing to continue with her MYP IB and attend that "high achieving" IB high school, or attend our local HS with AP courses, a typical high school with 3-4 NMSP semifinalists.

She loves her current MS IB program and would like to attend the IB High School. She's grown up through a self-contained GATE class Elementary school and really shines most in creative problem-solving (in math) and creative projects (science, writing, drawing etc). While she needs the acceleration and challenge, she is not the serious,"hard-studying" type of kid though (at least not yet). She's a type of kid, loves to learn and have fun with it. Really hates the "studying drudgery".

I'm a big recent fan of Cal Newport, and I really would like my DDs HS experience to be intellectually challenging but also with enough free time to pursue real interests, especially since DD is a type of kid, who given the time, would come up with interesting and meaningful interests to pursue...I just hate for her to be so tied down to required IB classes, assignments and tests, vs having the flexibility to chose your courseload, which the AP route allows. (in fact in our area, since the State and the District also has graduation requirements, an IB student trying to fulfill the IB requirements have to take a 6-week PE classes during one of their summers! I find that not the best use of their summer mornings, but, perhaps its a necessary sacrifice if one chooses)

But, if indeed the IB HS is clearly the more enriching and intellectually challenging program that PRODUCES academic excellence (as indicated by the number of NMSP finalists), then I would certainly encourage her to attend there. In fact, I've poked around the IB HS teachers websites and I like the IB curriculum taught, from that distant vantage point...there is a lot of emphasis on deep thinking, active learning, and integration of knowledge.

As a side note, I have a colleague, whose son is now a Junior at the IB HS, has many good things to say about the IB program. Now his son may or may not have been GATE-identified earlier on, (I just don't know but he did not in the self-contained GATE program that our District offers), but attended the IB MS and now HS, likely is very hard-working, and recently scored high 700s in the SATs and SAT2 without any SAT prep courses etc, just studied on his own. My colleague attributes his son's success to the IB school. Other people have high opinion of the school, many others think that the IB kids over-work themselves, and few, I know even had to pull their kids out because it was downright too intense and stressful for their child with all the projects, tests, and general "competitive" environment.

My DDs would probably not be bothered with the "competitive" environment and can likely handle the difficulty, it is the matter of the workload, and how much free time would they have afterwards for anything else?

Its a big question in my mind...as one would wish one's child the best enriching, challenging but balanced option for HS...

Is it high achieving kids or a high achieving school? It's probably both. Since SAT scores (and I would assume PSATs) correlate to some extent with socioeconomic status, I would guess that the demographics of the school plays a role. The kids are ones taking the test, so obviously they get the credit for high scores, but I think there is an interaction between the two.

As for which school to choose - that's hard to know. I guess I would choose a school where the curriculum prepares them for college, but not where the kids compete against each other in a vicious way. That sounds too stressful for even really driven kids.

I've looked at the NMS breakdown for my community and not surprisingly it seems to be a reflection of the socioeconomic status of the neighborhood served by each school. The only exception is like you reported the stats from the highly competitive magnet and I'm sure that reflects the admission requirements to be admitted.

In California, there is something called API number which is commonly used for comparing schools. But at higher end, the API is not a good indicator due to ceiling effect.

Number of national merit semi-finalists that a school produces seems to be a good way to compare a good school with another good school. Since students can only take PSAT once (in Junior year) and most people normally don't prep for PSAT, it may be a btter indicator than average SAT score (people can prep SAT and take multiple times). NMS semi-finalist name list for each state is released each year. Every one can see it to make his own judegement.

A similar approach is to check the number of presidential scholar candidates that a school produces each year. That information is available publicly. To be a presidential scholar candidate, you have to get (at least in CA) perfect SAT score in reading and math (single setting). Most school don't even have one. If you see unusal concentration in one particular school, then you know.

I'm following this discussion with interest. We will be facing this same decision in a couple years. Our local high school is an IB high school that is one of the top public high schools in the state. It also has a disproportionate number of NMS. As the only IB school in the area for many years, it has stolen the highest achieving kids from other area schools. I think that it is a dramatic case of high achieving kids/families self-selecting for the program.

Talking to other folks, people either love or hate the IB program for their kids. Some people love the academic rigor and the skills needed to succeed. Other people hate the rigid structure, lack of ability to pursue passion areas and copious amounts of homework of marginal value. Some love that certain colleges (though definitely not all) give college credit for IB work. Others complained that their kids suffered burn out and needed to take a year or more off before contemplating college. Some love the language requirement while others have kids who just don't have the ear. My question is how do I figure out if my kid will thrive in this environment or grow to hate school. I've seen both happen in my extended family. I haven't seen a good tool for helping with this decision.

Just a note - it is becoming increasingly common for students to take the PSAT in 10th and even 9th grade. Yes, that would be as a practice for a practice exam! This is more common at more affluent public and private schools. Also, some students do now prepare for the PSAT in ways that go beyond taking practice tests in 9th and 10th grade.

To the original poster - I guess it depends on what you want to find out. If you want to find out if there are smart kids at the school the PSAT is probably a decent indicator. If you want to find out if the curriculum is good I don't think it tells you that much.

The debate of IB vs. AP comes up once in a while. The politically correct answer is that both are good but different. Which is true but kind of avoiding the hard question. Indeed, these two are very different programs. There are real consequences of which way you choose.

Here is a link that provides some more details.

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/harvard-university/242813-ib-vs-ap.html

Chenchuan - I waded through most of the posts on that link, and all I saw were opinions about the relative merits of each program. I don't see substantive differences - what am I missing?

I also looked quickly at websites from top universities. They all seem to treat AP and IB credit equally (one website said this explicitly).

Each college has different IB/AP policy. So make sure that you check school's website for the policy. More selected schools tend to treat both equally. The lesser ones don't know IB that well.

I stole this from a CC thread:

"Another consideration to keep in mind is that the more selective colleges often give college credit only for IB classes taken at the �Higher Level� (�HL� in IB lingo). IB students take three classes at that level and the rest at the Standard Level (�SL�). Some colleges give credit only for IB exam scores of 7 (the top); some for lower scores. Thus, even the most outstanding students may only get college credit in three areas, while AP students could end up with credit in many more subjects, depending on how many AP classes the student takes, how he fares on the exams, and what the college�s credit policy is. Some parents and students report that they have to jump through more hoops for IB credit than for AP credit, especially when students are not at the most selective colleges. In any case, once you start investigating AP and IB credit policies, you may feel like you need Cal Tech degree just to figure it all out. Each college seems to somehow manage to come up with an AP/IB credit-awarding system that is just a tad different than the next guy�s!"

As a former IB student, I second this. I did much better in school once I got to college. IB was way too much work to keep up with the timelines, the testing, the external expectations (and my internal perfectionism). I fell out of it in my Senior year, did practically nothing the whole year, and still needed a semester off before I started college.

My university classes were challenging, thought provoking, and fast paced, and all had the appropriate amount of work. I finally felt like I was learning once I hit college, instead of just "working."

That's just me and the IB program I went to (graduated in '96). Your situation could be different.

Thanks, chenchuan. That's helpful.

Mominsac- if I had to choose, I'd think about some other metrics
1) If they offer AP classes, how many do they offer, and do the classes fit my child's interests?
2) How do the students do on the AP exams -what percentage of the grades are "passing" (or better yet, what percentage are "5s")?
3) Does the school offer arts, sports, clubs, etc. that interest my child?
4) What is the average SAT score (or middle 50%)?
5) How do the students fare in college placement? How is their guidance/college counseling department?

Some of this info may be available on the school profile, which is often on the school's website. I've been able to find some data for basic comparisons in our area using just the schools' profiles. Good luck with the decision.

Assuming demographics are fairly equal...

I think it has to do with what the kids come in with. So in a district where there are a lot at one high school and less at others, a lot of National Merit semifinalists/finalists probably means there is some draw for the gifted/high ability/highly motivated students.

In a district with only one high school, in my opinion, a lot of National Merit semifinalists/finalists means that the district is doing a good job with it's gifted/high ability/highly motivated students *before* they get to high school.

A case in point: We live in one of two top ranked districts (in terms of state test scores) in our state. The two districts have almost identical demographics, including number of students in the high school (each district has a single high school). One district consistently has 10-15 National Merit semifinalists/finalists and the other has less than five. Last year there was one. The district with the 10-15 National Merit semifinalists/finalists just happens to have a gifted program that starts in elementary school. The other district not only doesn't have a gifted program, it actively stonewalls any attempt at acceleration.

When my older daughter was about to enter high school, we have a choice of IB or AP school. I did a lot work to try to compare them with pros and cons, etc. I was not able to arrive a clear cut winner.

My daughter then 'shadowed' in both schools, following a HS senior for one day to various classes. Her decision came quickly after that. Not so much because of IB or AP. One has newer campus, shadow program was well organized and it was sunny day. The other one has an older campus, shadow program was a mess and it was a raining, miserable day. So guess what her choice is.

I finally had a chance to check online...thank you, everyone, for sharing your thoughts and observations! My OP had many issues embedded - NMSP as indicator, IB vs. AP, gifted vs high achievement � so I appreciate the various thoughts.

Twomoose, thanks for offering some key questions for me to consider:

Of the two local HSs we would consider both in same district, HS w/AP (12 offered), HS w/IB:

1) IB school has clearly higher average SATs, but again, as with the NMSP finalists, this may be more a function of its magnate status attracting the area higher achieving kids.
2) Socioeconomically, the IB school is more diverse, as it offers plenty of non-IB programs that may be considered lower end of the academic spectrum, the neighborhood is very mixed, and the IB is a magnate attracting high-achievers from wide tri-county area.
3) I should look at the AP scores, and better understand the college placements for both HSs (are such info public?). I only know anecdotally: �colleges only choose certain number of kids from each HS, so harder to get into choice colleges if one attended IB HS with its concentration of highly motivated achievers�, �despite all the work, xyz student doing IB didn�t get into any choice schools�, �xyz student at the AP school still got into some top schools etc so didn�t matter if he/she didn�t go the IB route� etc etc....

In addition:
1) I�ve been on the e-mail distributions for both HSs monthly newsletter, to get a �pulse� of what goes on in both high schools � the IB HS seems more active in offering additional academic services, related to college, etc....
2) The IB HS has more academic club offerings (debate, science olympiad, sci Bowl, History Bowl, etc etc the list goes on.) The AP HS, unfortunately, not as many.
3) The AP HS (for that matter other HSs in the area including privates in the area), with its more homogenous and advantaged student population, has more team sport offerings, but the two sports of our interests, swimming and tennis, the IB HS has decent teams. (both DDs swim year-around at club level, so not sure if it will matter to them greatly or not whether the HS team is good or not...)
4) IB HS has a far superior arts/studio arts program (which is one of my DDs passion), but IB Art seems like a LOT of work. (great if you don�t have the other courseload!) From what I gather, the AP HS has very little Art offering.
5) I�ve also heard that the IB curriculum is more humanistic and less science/math oriented, but in our �Local� region, the IB HS has the stronger science/math program producing the science award-winning type students. In fact, I called the AP HS to inquire about their math program since I noted they had no math offerings beyond Calculus BC, and my DDs would be on track to complete that by their Junior year.....I was told by the guidance counselor that they highly recommended students to re-take Algebra 2 in HS (!)

So, these are the information specific to our local HSs that I�m grappling with right now....that's why I was interested in hearing others observation about the correlation between the HS programs and NMSP finalists, knowing that, of course, specifics of the situation will impact the outcome...

I welcome any other correlation observations. thanks!

Kai, this is very interesting showing some correlation between gifted education and NMSP results..Our District has a very good gifted program, identifying the top students starting in 2nd and offering self-contained GATE classes at 3 of the district elementary schools. The program and teachers have been excellent. Many of those kids feed into the IB middle school, and probably 1/2 of those kids feed into the IB HS.

adhoc, I hear this alot regarding the IB curriculum, and is my biggest concern...

CFK � I agree with you, that is one positive about the AP route (in our local situation anyway), since we would eventually hit a wall at the HS and so we would have to seek local university or cc courses. I don�t think one would have that flexibility with the IB.

chenchuan, thanks for your reference to CC links. I have looked at those IB vs AP debate with interest. So I am curious, which did your daughter choose, and any revelations looking back at the decision?

Hi mominsac,

My older daughter went to the public school that offers AP classes. It turns out to be a good fit for her. She came out as the school valedictorian with 11 APs under her belt (plus several college classes). However, she did not try to get college credits for this AP classes except place out of foreign language requirement.

chenchuan,
That's a fantastic success story and congratulations! It truly worked out for your daughter. 11 AP classes sounds like a lot, plus college classes - I presume she must have worked very hard!

I'm also inclined, at least for now, to look at the IB vs. AP, purely from the angle of their academic content and merit, college/life preparation, and flexibility -- not for the objective of gaining college credits.

Back to our specific situation, I would be inclined to choose the HS with more NMSP finalists if it was not IB. Because it is IB, I need to weigh the IB vs AP little more, given that IB is a total curriculum program with specific requirements...

Thanks mominsac for kind words.

By judging the two schools in our school district which offers IB and AP with metrics like average SAT score, number of NMS semi-finalists, number of kids go on to UC Berkeley, the number of kids go on to Ives + Stanford + MIT, the two programs are pretty evenly matched. You can find successful stories to back up either side. Admitted that it is very small sample pool but I did not see any evidence to support that IB is far superior than AP.

The discrepancy of NMS semi-finalists that you saw in your school district's two schools is probably due to student self-selection. More often than not is that good students make good schools rather than the other way around.

Thank you, chenchuan, for sharing your local stats. Even if it is a small sample, its still another datapoint to show that given an area with comparable schools and student bodies, both AP and IB will offer similar levels of education and successful outcomes.

As I continue to mull this (as I'm sure I will until my daughter finally commits to a HS), I think you have a good point about the student self-selection process, and also agree that it may be very acute in our area.

Just yesterday, I ran into my daughter's old 5th grade teacher, who has been teaching gifted kids here exclusively for 25+ years. I mentioned our HS dilemma, and she was absolutely astounded that we were considering other non-IB HSs in our local area..."why wouldn't she go to the IB HS - its more a fit for her; what they do, the students.." Obviously, she was saying this not for the IB, per se, but because of its student body and the general academic environment. Now her own kids didn't attend the IB high school, but "that was them" and for us, the IB high school was more the fit, she thought. Just found that very interesting and little more re-assuring to get a 3rd opinion from an ex-teacher who knew my kids and the school choices we have very well...

This was discussed here.

http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/topics/83346/1.html

My analysis from the thread.


Here is the NMSF list from 2009.



http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/wp-content/uploads/files/2009/09/natlmeritsemifinalists.pdf

Very interesting data and analysis, thanks for sharing, Austin. It is amazing how many NMSP Finalists some schools do have!