I'm curious how the this community feels about the extended school year concept?

I know that in our family, DS learns more and enjoys learning more over the summer vacation since he has time to go beyond the mandated class assignments. So my thoughts are that it would depend on the school environment and the child, but in the reading I've done so far on the idea, it seems that the idea is to reduce the time spent on review so this could be good. Although, if we are going to make major changes to the factory school model, I think there are better options than extending the existing school environment.

I think the regular longer breaks during the year would be better than the way it is now, with all the time off in one block in the summer. That's for all students, not just the advanced ones.

I'm hugely in favor of year-round school, although I hate the current short mid-year breaks enough that I'm not in favor of a schedule with more / longer mid-year breaks. I'd much rather see mixed-age classrooms with self-paced work, and the ability to take kids out of school for whatever reason (including parental whim) within limits, but no school-mandated breaks.

I also think elementary school ought to run from 8am to 5 or 6pm, and include multiple rest / free play periods, as well as daily music / art / sports activities (rather than the rotation that gets PE in once or twice a week).

Caveat that I live in a state where homeschooling is constitutionally protected, and "whatever the parent feels is appropriate" is all you're required to do as far as homeschooling, and see childcare as way up on the list of benefits provided by public elementary schools.

From next year, when he'll be rising 8, DS's day will run from 8.30am to 6pm and will include multiple rest and free play (/club/music group) periods, and daily sport. (Can't help with the parent-chosen holidays though!)

Why should a child spend 9 to 10 hours at school each day? I don't really see the point. We expect adults to put in 8 hour days. Why do you expect more for a child? When would the kids get to play and participate in out of the school activities?

I highly suggest looking at the number of hours kids spend at school in Europe (significantly less than here) and the scores they achieve (significantly more than here). More is sometimes less.

Yeah, but marginal utility is really a whole 'nother issue - I figure as long as I'm willing for my kid to be in school, it may as well be at times convenient to me. And "the hours I'm at work" is as convenient as it gets.

We could do aftercare at the school now, but it consists of sitting in the cafeteria reading a book while the kids around you shriek. I suspect she'd have a better opportunity to learn if she were doing just about anything else, including sitting in her usual classroom.

The kid has to be *somewhere* during those hours. Two years ago, my neighbor's 6yo and 8yo were unsupervised in their house for an hour before school and two hours after school, because their single parent worked 8 hour days.

They'd get to play at school - which doesn't happen now, but could, if the day went longer. They'd participate in those activities at school, so kids whose parents didn't care / couldn't coordinate transportation / didn't have money would have a chance.


I dunno - I remember Saturday school from my year in Germany as an exchange student. Along with tracking that started in the 4th grade, so if you weren't identified as a high performer then, you had no ability to get into college (or even trade school, in some cases). Taiwanese schools go long hours / long year / lots of homework, and get higher scores than we do. Colin'sMum's in the UK, and her day looks a lot like I suggested.

I couldn't disagree more! The first paragraph sounds like an instructional nightmare. I'm not a teacher, but I can see why even having small groups helps the students, too. And having people gone randomly would be difficult if the class was doing a certain module at that point. And, you know this country. No mandated breaks would equal no breaks.

As for a longer school day, the only time that is good is when there's a bad home environment. I would die (overly melodramatic) if my child was away from me from 8 until 6. That would leave no time whatsoever for any family time.

That's what before and after school care does.

Well, you can't have it both ways. If you accept that many people use before and after school care now, then there's a second way an 8-6 school day could be better: if it worked out better overall than say a 9-4 school day with before and afterschool care taking the time away from home up to 8-6 anyway. Maybe you think mothers shouldn't work, but many have to and others choose to for a variety of reasons. *If* my child is going to be away from me for around that length of time anyway, it absolutely makes sense to me that his time gets planned as a whole, so that, for example, he gets both a morning and a lunchtime break that are long enough to put optional clubs and music rehearsals into, and gets sport every afternoon, with lessons spaced out over the whole day in such a way that his concentration doesn't fray for lack of movement. The way it works here is that schools that work on this kind of pattern offer an enormous range of activities inside the school day - you don't attempt to have them do lots of activities after school as well.

Right. We do. I wasn't arguing it was practical for schools to suddenly start doing it; I was just objecting to the idea that it was necessarily a bad thing for the children. (Defensively, of course, since I'm choosing it for mine!)

But if the extra time is not instructional, I want the option of choosing how it's spent. You could work 9-5, you could work nights, you could have a nanny, you could take off from work early on a Monday to take your child to piano lessons. If they're doing the group sport at 1pm and math at 5:30 I don't have that option.

I don't see why the school day needs to be extended to incorporate lots of outside running around time. That's how my school was as a child and we all learned what we needed to in the instructional time. In a six and a half hour day we had an hour and a half of outside free play, and no homework.

Fine, you want that option, so don't send your child to a school like the one my DS goes to. But what you said, in the post that (I hope accidentally) implied that I must be either offering my son a bad home environment or making a bad choice of school for him, was

Are we talking about you or me? You don't know which of those options I have, actually. And as it happens my son has perfectly good piano lessons in school.

I don't think I've said anything that could reasonably be construed as such a proposal - perhaps you're confusing me with another poster.

As a teacher and a mom I have pretty strong thoughts about this whole issue. I will try to summarize them briefly.

I don't think that extending the school year is what is needed, but rather moving the schedule around so that we had a week's break after each 9 weeks of school to allow everyone (kids and teachers) a breather. (This is especially needed if you are teaching higher level indepth courses.) And then a month at Christmas and around a month for summer. This would eliminate the need for extended review, but would allow the much needed breaks for all involved.
If you are not in the classroom with kids all day everyday (whether it be 18 elementary kids all day long or 150 middle/high schoolers in various classes cycling through) dealing with not only their academic needs, but their social and developmental needs, as well as dealing with their parents/guardians/family members/parole officers/students' kids etc. trying to actually teach the kids what they need - not just to pass some state mandated test, but to have them actually learn something you have no idea how utterly exhausting it is. The idea of adding on hours to a school day, or more days to the year makes me shake my head and want to resign now.
At the moment it is the end of the first marking term - we are all tired and need a break, but we don't get one until November - Thanksgiving weekend. We will muster through, because we have no choice, but PLEASE keep in mind that as a teacher (if your good and care) you are often taking home 3-4 hours of work EVERY NIGHT! of marking or planning or report writing because 1 50 minute period a day is not enough time to even think straight, forget about doing all the stuff you need to. I have almost 20 years teaching experience, and I know what I am doing and I still do close to 3 hours of work a night just to stay a day ahead of requirements.
Not to mention of course that with a master's degree in physics and all of these years experience, I do all of this for less than $50,000 a year.
So, while I understand the need in our society for parents to have a place for their kids to be while they work, and I know our country's education is not where it should be right now, rather than simply extending the school year give us power back in the classroom to teach the kids in ways that we know will be beneficial to our students, rather than requiring us to spend all of our time prepping them for tests.

As far as our specific population of kids - I would not want my DD to spend any more time in school than she does now. She needs free play time at home with the family, or at the beach or on vacation. I agree with other posters that in this country the idea of extra time during the day to allow for a longer lunch and PE everyday sounds great, it would probably be the first thing to be cut and they'd end up in more test prep classes rather than getting what they need.

Dottie, I too blended most of the posts together.

I am a strong believer in free unstructured time. I think all kids need it, but this is especially true for elementary age kids. I have nothing against high school kids spending a substantial amount of their time at school, but I strongly disagree with any system that would require young children spending 9 to 10 hours at school.

It's up to the parent to decide where and how the children spend the time outside of school.


Exactly. I would go as far as saying that unstructured time in the after school care may be a great choice for many children.


I grew up in a system with significantly fewer school hours in elementary school. Last I heard elementary age children in Germany have shorter days than children in US.

I don't have enough time to search for more data, but here is a paper from the Council of Europe Family Policy Database. It shows the amount of time elementary aged children spend at school at different European countries. Admittedly some of the countries have long days, but many of them have short days (such as 8-12). There is no data listed for quite a few of the countries, but I know for sure that at least a few of them have schedules similar to the 8-12 mentioned above.

Some schools are open longer to provide after school care, but the academic lessons are a few hours per day.

http://www.coe.int/t/dg3/familypolicy/Source/3_4_2%20Timetables%20primary%20schools.pdf

And yet all you hear about these days is how they need to spend more and more time at their desks. IMO it's the time in between spurts of study that let the concepts sink in. Not to mention how they can possibly handle these kids who have been sitting still and quiet for hours.

I'm saying in general, the different ways people's lives are arranged and the things they choose for their kids to do before/after school.

I wasn't referring to you, but to the studies that are cited here (in the media in the US) continually, saying that longer school hours= better results. It's one of the things that charter schools like to push. And the reason for the effect is that if a child goes home to a poor home environment vs staying at school to do homework of course there's a difference in test scores. I don't think your son or mine, as the child of middle class intellectually curious people, would see any change in test scores if they spent five extra hours a day at school.

Okay, out of curiosity so I can compare to here. What is the break up of the school year, how many terms and how many weeks holiday?

At DD7's school they have 4 9 week terms. During the first term (which started Aug 23rd) the students have 2 days off and the teachers have 1. During the 2nd term we have more time off: 3 individual days for holidays, then 2 days for Thanksgiving at the end of November and 10 school days for Christmas. (Teachers have 2 less days off). 3rd term has 2 student days off, 1 teacher day off. 4th term has 2 individual days off plus a week for spring break at the end of March, teacher get one less day off.
So in total the year is 180 days for students, plus 11 work days for teachers without students.
The last day of school for the students is June 7th and the kids are off until the end of August.

Summer is around 2 1/2 - 3 months long. School starts at the beginning of September. Days off are as likely to be midweek as adjacent to a weekend. Terms are not tied to vacations, there are four terms which finish randomly through the year.

Week 9 one day off,
week 11 one day off
week 12 two days off (thanksgiving four day weekend)
week 17 the whole week is off (christmas)
week 20 one day off
week 22 one day off
week 25 one day off
week 31 the whole week is off (spring break)
week 34 one day off
week 39 one day off
week 40 one day off
week 41 last week of school

See why year round school would be an improvement?

Hmm...put me in what appears to be the minority who favors long summer breaks. As a child I loved, and my kids love now:

* Day camp (Games! Arts & Crafts! Sports! Swimming! Picnics!)

* Lazing around and dreaming the day away

* The beach! Sandcastles! Meeting random kids! Hey, was that a fish? Beach barbecues!

* Fun long term projects every day (hang gliders, treehouses, forts, exploring)

* Comic books, matinees at the cinema

* Sleepaway camp

* Vacation, even if it was just down to Boston to see the cousins (I lived in NH)

And all of this fit into a long, leisurely summer. I was never rushed from mid-June to Labor Day. And neither are my kids.

Sorry if I'm the odd one out here, but I wouldn't trade any of that for more running around, more homework, and more creativity-stifling test prep --- never, ever ever.



Val

Val, would all of that be impossible in a six week long summer, which is what you get with year-round school? And how much fun would a family trip skiing be? Or a week of ballet camp four times a year?

Year round school has no extra school days, they're just more evenly distributed so that kids get regular decent breaks throughout the year.

Pretty much, yes. It would have to be rushed and scheduled in carefully. A lot of the spontaneity would be gone. What I love about summer break is the extended, very long period of downtime.

Obviously, if year-round school works for you and your kids, that's great. Don't think I'm trying to tell you what to do. I was only pointing out some of the wonderful things that a long break offers. Yes, some kids forget stuff, but six weeks is enough time to forget, too.

I lived in Switzerland for a while and am close to a teacher there. They have a six-week summer break, and from what I could see, the kids are in school for a few weeks, then out for a week, then in, then out.... One problem with this is that settling in after a break takes time. Kids also get wound up before a break, so they have more periods of reduced concentration. Plus, they don't get an extended period of learning.

The much-celebrated Finnish schools have a 2.5 month summer break. Canada has a long break too, and is also known for its good education system. Countries with short breaks (Japan, Korea) are known also for good education, too. Switzerland has a short one, and it's somewhere in the middle internationally. So, in this quick examination anyway, I don't see a correlation between length of summer break and the quality of the school system.

I think that Americans tend to look for simple solutions to problems, especially in education. We commonly hear that the problem is teacher pay, class size, and funding. Yet even a brief examination of systems in other countries shows that some of the best school systems are below us in all of these respects.

Sure, some of the simple solutions work for individuals (e.g. a shorter summer break), but for a population as a whole, we need a thoughtful, multifactorial solution.

The US is currently in a period of stress over education, with test scores (national and international) driving a lot of the stress. In our push to force a solution to the problem, we seem to have lost sight of the purpose of an education system, which is to create a thoughtful populace. From what I can see, our current focus is to create kids who can get passing scores on high stakes tests. In a way, that handicaps us from day one.

Just my two cents.

Val

I agree. I wish we had a national discussion on how to have "school" look more like "summer break"

That is what some homeschoolers and unschoolers have done, right?

As in, " Learning happens all the time... " It happens more when kids feel safe and are engaged and happens less when kids are stressed and rushed.

I'd be up for year-round school that had:

* Lazing around and dreaming the day away

* The beach! Sandcastles! Meeting random kids! Hey, was that a fish? Beach barbecues!

* Fun long term projects every day (hang gliders, treehouses, forts, exploring)

* time with parents, community, people of all ages

* etc.

And on the other side, a teacher friend of mine says that after a couple of months they are just done with learning and need a break. Kind of like how you need to sleep in between studying for an exam and sitting it so things settle into your memory.

Just for the comparison. There are some slight variations from state to state but this is the public school system in NSW:

The Australian school year ties in with the calendar year. The year is broken into 4 terms of approximately 10 weeks, with about 2 weeks break between terms. The school year ends in December, just before Christmas. Summer holidays are at this time - usually about 5 or 6 weeks. This totals about 200 days (minus a few for public holidays. Also the first day of first three terms are teacher development days so no students attend on those days.

I used to teach high school math and science - and I think for most kids, year round school would be very helpful. Most parents don't bother to encourage their kids, or even check to see what they are learning. So I always spent the first month of school reviewing the things they didn't remember after taking the entire summer off. It was an awful waste of class time, if you ask me.
On the other hand, my son (and a few others that I know) spend the summers learning advanced material, and actually working out their brains more than they do during the regular school year. I think it would be more of a hindrance to him to take away his summer vacation.
Perhaps it would be best to have year round school, but make sure that the classes are appropriately leveled so that every student gets a challenge in class. There has been a trend over the past few years to do away with levelling classes to spare people's feelings. In my opinion, this only makes those who are struggling feel stupid and bores the advanced students to tears. No one benefits from it.

I find it interesting how they handle extended school programs here. The larger school district AISD has a few elementary schools that are extended schools but these are only in the poor areas of town and once they reach middle school there is no options for extended.

I haven't read the whole thread, but this comment resonated with me. That's about what before and afterschool care looks like here as well. Dd10 hates it when she has to go. From what I've seen, our schools do not excel in enrichment or downtime activities. I expect that my kids would be much happier with shorter days and downtime at home than longer days with more downtime at school built in.

As Dottie mentioned on the first page, there would have to be some serious funding changes in order to add anything on at our schools. Our local district cut $12 million dollars out of their operating budget this year and has now been asked to give back another something like $14 million to the state due to state deficits. There is some temporary funding that will cover the amount they need to "give back" for this year, but they are in serious budget trouble. We also have three ballot initiatives being voted on that would further reduce the district budget by $50 million/year. That is over 25% of their total budget.

As far as the concept of year around school, I do think that it would be a lot easier as a working parent, but I don't think that it would benefit my children educationally or otherwise.

That is so balanced in comparison! How is childcare arranged in the breaks?

In my case it was a combination of things.

Take time of yourself and go away.

Pay for a baby sitter.

Enrol in an organised care program.

Mum and Dad would often like to visit us in the country or would like the kids to visit them in the city.

Make arrangements with friends. That is I would take one two week break off from work and catch up on things at home while also looking after another friends children. They then return the favour.

I have always worked full time once the kids started school. This combination of solutions worked well for me. I guess it boils down to what you are use to. I find the 2 week breaks throughout the year manageable whereas when I read about the long summer some of you have I would be panicked! LOL.