So, DS6 skipped K and is in first grade. Totally the right move -- I can't imagine him in K this year. Very social: all the kids love him and he thinks school is great fun. Academically, it is not the right fit.
I spent the fall overlooking the mismatch because I knew he was new to the routines of full-time school, not that that took the entire fall to adjust to. But once the new year came along I started talking to his teacher about trying to make the fit -- particularly in math since he's challenged enough at home in reading. The teacher is generally wonderful and has been providing problem solving packets that he does on his own and games that he does in small groups with kids above grade level but not at his level. But, the mismatch is now manifesting itself and the whole situation is starting to really bug me.
My DS, who used to LOVE to think about numbers and how they interact and make puzzles and mix together, now gets frustrated when he is asked to problem solve. This happens not only at school with the self-directed packets but also at home.
My DS, who sits through 6.5 hours of school each day that teaches virtually nothing new to him, has started to have problems with not listening to us and his teacher -- not in a defiant way but in a I'm daydreaming and totally not hearing you way. Again, his lack of need to listen is carrying over to his behavior at home.
My DS, who was able to sit still through an hour-long weekly adult bible study class when he was three and every night sits still and listens to middle-school level chapter books and discusses them now spins around on the carpet during group time at school and has started having a hard time sitting still through things like church outside of school.
Unfortunately, no matter how many times I mention subtley and not-so-subtley the connection between academics and his behavior at school, his teacher just thinks that it's not that big a deal. To be fair, he is NOT a discipline problem at school. But his teacher uses his activity level as the reason that he shouldn't be accelerated despite the fact that she acknowledges that he is more than ready for 3rd grade math and 4th grade reading. She just doesn't see that, perhaps, if he was doing work at his level, these behaviors might disappear because then his mind would be occupied with learning rather than entertaining himself.
I'm just venting. We've requested he try a math acceleration this year to see if it would be good for next year, but we're waiting for him to take the MAP math test with the second graders (the first graders do not take it at his school). He just took the MAP reading test and scored off the charts percentile-wise.
Is this now the point where we no longer beat around the bush? How do I make it clear to the school that it's academics affecting behavior so they don't use the reverse argument?
It was so much easier with my daughter, in some ways, who is a rule-follower and just sucked up the mismatch each day until we accelerated her. They had no argument not to accelerate her. Aargh!
This article I found useful, not sure if you will:
"What it means to teach gifted learners well"
http://www.nagc.org/index.aspx?id=659esp. this point:
2) Instruction for gifted learners is inappropriate when it asks them to do "more of the same stuff faster." Reading more books that are too easy and doing more math problems that have ceased being a challenge are killers of motivation and interest.
And as you consider his education down the road, I found this article interesting for our own child who also skipped K and went to Gr. 1.
What a Child doesn't learn
http://www.wku.edu/academy/?p=430We've been considering that this is rather important, other than the basic academics and doing well on tests.
I hope it helps a little bit.
I would certainly read at Hoagies etc and find several articles discussing that the mismatch may be causing the behavior. I get so tired of services being denied for behavior. I read on psych's website? or in a book, that you can't tell anything about behavior until the child is being sufficiently challenged. IF the behaviors are still present with appropriate challenge, then start looking for other causes.
Is this now the point where we no longer beat around the bush?
Yes. What's your picture of no longer beating around the bush?
Homeschooling? Keeping him home for a week in protest? Switching to a school that will accelerate him (after a year you can bring him back)? Making a formal request for the next skip in writting, and sending copies to the teacher, the principle, the gifted coordinator, the school board?
How do I make it clear to the school that it's academics affecting behavior so they don't use the reverse argument?
The articles might help. might not. Asking for a temporary placement to evaluate if you are just being crazy for thinking this thing that they clearly don't believe. In the end, you might not ever change their thinking. You can only ask, as cleanly as possible, for them to do the right thing.
Sometimes it helps to frame it in terms of the school's mission statement, whatever that might happen to be. Repeating yourself over and over again while projecting complete confidence seems to help. The book 'Getting to Yes' will help you 'coalition build' with the school.
It seems to me that the first challenge is to sell them on 'we have a problem' and after that, you can try selling them on 'here is the solution.'
BTW - it seems like you got a good 6 months in with the current situation. That is actually something to celebrate. He likes school. That's very good! He has friends, friends that he likes even, it sounds like. That's very good. Now the trick is to help the school see that there is a problem. Ask yourself - what things have happened recently that make me want to cry. Those are the stories that you have to share with the school.
Best Wishes,
Grinity
This article I found useful, not sure if you will:
"What it means to teach gifted learners well"
http://www.nagc.org/index.aspx?id=659esp. this point:
2) Instruction for gifted learners is inappropriate when it asks them to do "more of the same stuff faster." Reading more books that are too easy and doing more math problems that have ceased being a challenge are killers of motivation and interest.
And as you consider his education down the road, I found this article interesting for our own child who also skipped K and went to Gr. 1.
What a Child doesn't learn
http://www.wku.edu/academy/?p=430We've been considering that this is rather important, other than the basic academics and doing well on tests.
I hope it helps a little bit.
I just want to add that you can find hundreds of articles and books that back up this type of gifted thinking.
I suggest read about how to talk to teachers too. It helps to be very posiitive and avoid words like he is bored. When I used this the teacher became insulted when I was only trying to tell how my child feels about his day.
Hang in there. This is a challenge.
Thanks everyone. We're just getting frustrated around here.
Like I said, we love this teacher in general. She's caring and patient and thinks our DS is really smart. She KNOWS he can do much more advanced work, tries to enrich his learning, and even allows him to show off some of his knowledge to his classmates (e.g., drawing 3-D shapes on the board, showing how he would solve an addition problem with regrouping). She even admits that he knows most of what she's teaching the class. But I think she's afraid he might miss something if he moves ahead. For example, the other day she told me that she had to tell him to pay attention when she was introducing what fractions were and what the numerator and denominator meant because, eventhough she knew he knew fractions, she didn't know if he knew everything she was going to teach about them. How can it be that she doesn't see that that's absurd? That, of course, he didn't feel like paying attention?! That he chats with his friends and spins in circles and goofs around becuase he's attempting to stimulate himself since the academics don't do it for him?
I actually have a great relationship with his teacher since I've volunteered in her class for two years now, but sometimes I'm not sure that she knows how serious I am about him needing accommodations. I like your idea, Grinity, of repeating myself confidently over and over, but right now it seems like I'm politely banging my head against the wall! I want acceleration and she keeps thinking of different problem solving activities he can do when he's done with the regular work.
In truth, my DD had this same teacher for 1st grade and she knew that my DD needed more challenging work as well. But DD was impeccably behaved. She even, when I brought up the possibility of subject acceleration, said "Why didn't I think of that!" So, at the end of 1st grade with her we started the process of acceleration. Unfortunately, she wasn't able to start acceleration until November of the following year since the process was so long.
We've just been trying to cut out some of the red tape and asked if he could just try out subject acceleration for the last two months of school, with nothing official being decided. But, I guess, they are wanting to wait to get the MAP test results. Of course, the test isn't even scheduled yet and we're running out of school year. And then there's the possibility that he'll not do as well on the MAP as we're expecting given the math he does on his own and at home.
In general, the principal of the school has been very accomodating and had no problem initiating all the assessments needed for DS to skip K. He's been great, too, with our DD. But it's frustrating having to jump through all the hoops first before we can even set up our meeting with the principal.
I guess I will try to print out some of the articles about what gifted students don't learn when the work is too easy, but I still worry that it might be too heavy-handed and that perhaps she might take offense. Still, I have to try something new. So thank you for all your ideas and all your support. I need it!
mnmom, Your situation sounds so similar to ours. Our son has behavior issues in school so the school ignores his abilities. It seems the school sees the negative without realizing that accommodating for the positive will decrease the negative! I'm keeping my fingers crossed for next year at a new school. Good luck to you, it is so frustrating, I know. Nan
Very good point, MON!
mnmom - Is there any possibility you could request that your DS be evaluated on the WJ-III (or whatever achievement test they use) by the school psychologist? That might get things going a bit faster than waiting for MAP testing, or a formal request might encourage the school to have your child take the MAP more quickly. I think it's just easier for them to have your DS take the MAP with the rest of the 2d graders, but I believe they can arrange to have your child take it separately. I say this because I'm pretty sure my DS took the MAP separately and before all the 2d graders at his school.
I think Grinity suggested the request in writing - I would second that, and recommend that the request go to the principal, with others (teacher, gifted coordinator) copied. The principal is usually key in these matters, and if you have him/her on board, it makes other things easier too (like getting placement with the right teachers).
Good luck!
You're DS sounds like mine. In a way, I really want to push for him to be moved again, but I also like that he has a good fit socially. I have let it ride since we have less than a month left of school, and he's transferring to a new one next year, but if it's an issue at the new school, I really hope I can get through to them.
Good luck.
I DO like DS's social fit, since all of his best friends in his class are more than a year older than him. Unlike with my DD, we don't want to grade skip him, just subject accelerate him in math. It's the simplest accommodation we've asked for for either of our kids, so you'd think it wouldn't be such a big deal!
I think I will ask DS's teacher when I go in to help on Thursday (if I don't hear from her before that) if he can just take the MAP test on his own without the other 2nd graders. I had forgotten this was an option even though this is just what my DD did a couple of years ago -- so thank you st pauli girl for reminding me we have that option!
So, my DS took the math MAP test yestday with the 2nd graders and exceeded the school's goal for the end of 2nd grade by one point. (He scored off the chart for reading, but we're not looking for acceleration there.) His teacher said his scores were "amazing" and that she would be forwarding them to the principal and the GT coordinator for the district. My DH talked to the principal a few days ago and the principal commented that the teacher said DS was starting to tune out (which I think confers some urgency) and that he should be in a situation where he can learn and actually be taught new information. So, now we'll move on to setting up a meeting to hammer out a deal for next year.
My worry, however, is that in past meetings regarding my DD, they have said that they prefer to accelerate a student when there are no other options and when the student would be in the top 90% of the class into which they were moving. I'm not sure if that will be the case with scores like that, although looking at what he shows us at home, I am confident that he needs third grade math next year. Also, this year we've gone the "enrichment" route, and it's just not enough -- with which I think his teacher would agree. Is this enough of an argument for subject acceleration next year? Would it help for us to ask to at least try the subject acceleration next year and if it doesn't work we could always move him back to grade-level, or would this confer some uncertainty on our part that we are not feeling? Should we emphasize that DS has never officially been taught the math he knows, since he has never been exposed in school to math that he doesn't already know, so that we imagine that he could certainly learn third grade math with it being actually taught to him?
I'm just trying to get our plan of attack in order before we meet. I'm definitely the one who will need to be making our case during the meeting since my husband thinks he should just skip again and he has the tendency to use words such as bored!
Thanks for any help and/or opinions you could give me!
Hi Mnmom, I feel for you. While it sounds like they are doing the whole 'wait out the rest of the year', maybe you could bring up the point that over the summer he is going to keep accelerating. So if he is bored at the end of the year in 1st grade, he will be really bored at the beginning of 2nd grade when they review all the past curriculum. So moving him up now is a great option because he will then develop those skills and become more proficient on 2nd grade math over the summer. FWIW HTH Good luck!
Yeah, I think this year isn't even a possibility. I would have loved for him to at least sit in on 2nd grade math this spring. And he wasn't just bored at the end of 1st grade, but throughout the whole year. I can only imagine how much he will learn this summer, so I guess if they're nervous about it, they might feel better about it in the fall. But, I don't want to wait until the fall to set something up like we did with my DD. So, hopefully, they, too, will see the advantages of at least trying an acceleration.
Have you thought of trying to accelerate him on a subject basis to see if he likes the next class? Then just move him in? I.e. when in 2nd, go to 4th grade for Math and Reading for the first part of the year, then be all 4th the second half?
My smoothest acceleration was that way. I still got to see my old class during recess.
Mr W (27mos) has been hanging out with the 4 year olds for several weeks now and they let him go back and forth, but he is mostly staying across the hall with the older kids. He goes to "recess" with his age peers, though.
That's kind of what we did with my DD. Last year she was in 2nd grade in the afternoon, but was subject accelerated to 3rd for the entire morning (math, reading, writing, art, and gym). This year she is in 4th full-time and it couldn't have worked out better. It was a great transition. DS is at the same place reading-wise as DD was at the end of first, and ahead of where she was math-wise, but for some reason we're not comfortable with grade-skipping DS. I'm not sure why. He does great with older kids (one of his regular playmates is our almost 12-year-old neighbor) and almost all his best friends in his class are more than a year older than him. So, it's not that. He does talk a little unclearly, though, especially his l's at the end of words (e.g., fall, ball, will, etc.), so I don't know if that's subconsciously playing into our thoughts of a subject acceleration only. DD was so great at following rules and not causing trouble that it was easy to imagine her skipping a grade, but DS isn't quite the rule-follower in that way; he is a 6 year old boy. On the other hand, that could indicate a skip is in order. I somehow CAN get my mind around skipping him when he is older, though. I don't know -- I've thought alot about why there is difference in how we feel about DS, but I just can't put my finger on it.
mnmom23 - do you know what the target score is for end of 2nd grade at your school?
Dazey
His teacher said that the target score for 2nd graders at the end of the year on the math Map was 191. That seems low to me given the percentiles chart I have, but I also know that first grade percentiles are listed as "based on samles that were NOT stratified to reflect the U.S. school as population." So, I don't know if that goal is only for the our school district or if it is a reasonable goal for all second graders. I also don't know if that means that most of the 2nd graders in our district obtain that score, or 50 percent, or less. I do know that, in our district, the 1st graders do not take the math MAP. And, eventhough I know that my DS seems to be farther ahead in math than my higher-level gifted DD was at the same point, I do not have DD's math scores to compare to (she took a different test). Does that help?
On the chart I have, 191 for 2nd graders is 50th%. I was just curious to see where they had their target. Thanks!
Dazey
Dazey,
Hence my concern that they will not subject accelerate him. However, they do have testing that he is gifted. They do know that his teacher thinks he is ready for 3rd grade work. They do know that he entered first knowing almost all of the 1st grade curriculum. And they do know that both we and his teacher feel that the "enrichment" activities aren't enough.
What I don't know is if 191 is at the 50th percentile for 2nd graders in this district. We have a largely lower middle class community with a large portion of students being english-language learners, so it wouldn't entirely suprise me if 191 is a higher percentile score in this district.
Does it matter that he got this score without ever having formally been taught math (or almost anything academic, for that matter!)? Imagine how he would do if he had actually been taught something this year!
Also, FWIW, I'm not sure that he doesn't know more math than the test would indicate, based on what I see and what he talks about at home. But, I understand that the test is what it is and I won't argue that point.
mnmom, they did that to me too when DS was in 1st. He tested on the MAP into midyear 3rd (1/2 way thru 1st) and they said they wanted him to be in the end of 3rd grade range before they'd put him in 3rd grade. Why would you need to test out of that grade if you were going to be placed in that grade? I just don't get it. How frustrating! Sounds like you have one smart kiddo. Keep up the good work mom!
I think it has something to with taking a kid who's used to being the smartest in his class and not putting him a situation where he's struggling. But, even if he was average, he would not be struggling -- he would be challenged, and that would be a good thing. And if he was average, he likely wouldn't remain that way for long given the fact that he would finally, thankfully, be taught by a teacher, and given that they have ability test scores that show he likely learns at a much faster pace than most.
And thanks for the kind words! I needed that!
Here's the Learning Ladder for the 191 math RIT. It's supposed to show what he's ready to learn next. You may want to bring it to a meeting and ask what the options are to get instruction on this level. Good luck!
http://www.powayusd.com/projects/edtechcentral/lladder/RITScore.asp
Wow! Thanks, Inky! This is exactly what I need! Do you know if the recommendations for what this score means he's ready to learn come from the NWEA itself, or from some other group? I would love to tell them the origin of these. I mean, I know that it says Poway ISD, but did they come up with these on their own or are they based off of NWEA data?