Ds is in a gifted 4th grade class. He is currently failing in math and language arts while excelling in social studies and science. He hates math because they are doing common core multiplication and division. If he doesn't show his work its marked wrong even if he got the answer right but if he shows his work he takes too long and either doesn't finish or he becomes late on other homework. The teacher doesn't have time to watch him or help as its a large class so she sends him into the hallway where he refuses to do anything. At home he is having anxiety attacks over this and although I got him signed up with khan academy he is now determined never to do math again so its become a full out battle. If he thinks he did well on a test we find out later he failed and he gets discouraged. How can a child be at 100% for science and history yet 49% at math? Math has always been his strong suit until this year. We have tried to set up appointments and meetings with the physciatrist and occupational therapist but they are "too busy". I'm about to lose my shit and go crazy on these people. I really don't want to pull my kids from this school as both are adapting socially very well...and that's a first for my dd. What would you do?

I've been there. 6th grade my DS totally melted down. His problem wasn't math but anything involving writing, or group projects and he had a lot in his gifted class. He was also very slow to get him homework done. He had full on anxiety attacks in class, and at home when it was homework time.

What did I do? I found him a psychologist outside of school, he saw the school social worker. We decided that as he was already well above grade level, we would work on his anxiety rather than information content for most of the rest of the school year. Part of the problem was a bad teacher fit. As this only started in Feb. of his 6th grade year (last in that school) we talked about how junior high would be different.

Things improved in junior high and then took a turn for the worse again last year as a H.S. freshman. Last summer I finally got him a full neropscyc evaluation, and I'm glad I did. I understand a bit better what is going on. Wish I'd done it earlier. One issue is that although my son is gifted he has low processing & working speed. Therefore although he understands how to do a high level of material he has never been fast about it.

Is this a public school? If so I would demand a student study team (SST) meeting to discuss these issues and see how you are going to proceed. It seems as if your DS's teacher is really not trying to figure out what is going on.

Yes its public education at its finest. My husband and I have been trying to work with the school but they don't return calks or pass it off to someone else. His teacher says he doesn't know it so he will keep doing it over and over until she believes he has mastered it.I'm about ready to give up like him but won't. I refuse to make him do hours of homework every night as I believe he still needs to be a kid and outside playing and being active.

The school is currently "evaluating him" but I was told it would be weeks. I'm trying to find a psychologist or therapist for him but the soonest is late December and the school counselor told us she doesn't work with gifted kids so they have a specialist who rotates schools every three months. In the meantime I feel like I'm failing him.

Yikes what state are you in? Despite all my complaints about my local district, when we had both problems and I complained I had a SST within weeks. Both in 6th grade and high school.

If your son is failing in both math & LA then something needs to be done sooner than later. Can you get the phone number of the gifted specialist and give them a call?? Perhaps they will see him sooner if they knew. Is there someone at the district you can CALL?

I also wanted to ask what the curriculum/books are being used for math. Some of the new "common core" text books are simply awful.

The procedure we had to do was first have a SST (Student Study Team) a meeting with the teacher, principal, school psychologist, social worker, or whoever else seems appropriate. At that meeting suggestions were made and a second meeting was set 8 weeks later. Only after this happened would the school consider testing and a 504.

Good Luck.

Well he was able to get his grades up in language arts so he's at a 78% now after the big test they had on Friday but math is still an issue. IRS double digitmultiplication and division. II'm still trying to get him used to graph paper to show his work. He is now officially excelling at science and wrote some big report about utilizing magnets as a means for free electricity that would also help with the greenhouse effect. So I have a child who can excel when challenged and able to go at his pace but then fails something similar when he has to show his work or is timed. I don't get it. But I also received an email from the teacher about ten minutes ago that they are in the very beginning of the rti process. I didn't fill out any work but I did let all of them know he needs to be evaluated for dysgraphia.

Oh...and we are in Arizona.

In the OP you asked WWYD so here's my 2 cents. I also have a kid that can also be 100% in one thing and fail another. In our case he is 2e and it often boils down to teachers and their skill/experience/personality fit and if they accommodate or evaluate using alternative methods. In our case teachers that expect him to produce everything on paper and refuse to bend generally don't get great results.

1. take a deep, deep breath

2. repeat #1 You are running a marathon and not a sprint so don't beat yourself up for not having an instant fix. Many kids go through years of school without being diagnosed so pat yourself on the back for going through all of this in elementary.

3. you know there is *something* up. Testing will hopefully help sort that out so getting testing is a great start. It sounds like the school is doing that but as mentioned there might be ways to go up the ladder and get things moving a little quicker. It also sounds like you've looked into private so hopefully something can be figured out sooner than later.

4. anxiety - In our case DS was VERY frustrated and angry with school. He was 6.5 and viewed himself as a smart kid. When all of the other kids in the class were easily writing up a storm and he wasn't the only logical solution was that he was stupid (his words). After we went through testing we talked about how everyone is good at some things and that other things can be a challenge. Just because something is hard doesn't mean you are stupid. We reassured him that he was indeed very smart but that writing was harder for him than for most kids and that was ok. We were able to scribe his homework to ease the frustration. At school they occasionally scribe as well.

If I had a kid that was suffering from anxiety I might consider a version of the above discussion that fits his strengths and challenges. Knowing that he does indeed belong in the gifted class might ease some of his fears. Knowing that you (and the school/teachers) want to help make writing (or whatever his challenge is) easier might help.

5. If the school is willing to put some accommodations in place while waiting for testing that might also be something to ask for. They might not know exactly why he is having a particular challenge but if they can work around it and allow him to have a scribe or to answer verbally instead of written it might make a big difference. Kids don't perform their best when they are frustrated and anxious. Maybe they can help narrow the issue down by figuring out the worst scenarios for him or where the bottle neck lies.

6. ignore the grades for now - I mean you know they are telling you there is a problem so don't ignore that part but try not to focus on the specifics. If he comes home with a 40% on a test try to see if it is because he couldn't get it out on paper, because he didn't understand the question, the space was too small to write, there was a kid next to him chewing gum loudly, etc.... but the actual grade doesn't matter right now. Make sure he knows that you know he is doing his best and you are there to help him reach his goals. He doesn't WANT to have a 40%.

I don't mean to sound preachy or that I have the answers because honestly we're still fumbling along as well. I know your frustration however and wanted to try to help if I could. Hopefully something in that will help or spark an idea. I know how hard it is to see your very smart kid struggle and not be able to fix it immediately. Hang in there!

I know teachers have a boatload of extra work to do, but I don't understand this. If a teacher has a student in her class who is failing math, shouldn't she be doing something about this?

I agree with previous posters who recommend trying to find out the root of your son's difficulties. And in the meantime, I wouldn't push extra math (like Khan Academy). If it's a writing problem, for example, extra practice without scaffolding isn't going to help.

If I were in your situation, I would request a full evaluation, to determine if there are any non-math difficulties that may be contributing (e.g. working memory, reading/writing issues, etc). I would also gently "test" my son to see if he understands the concepts. Does he just not understand the math, or the approach used in class, or something else.

You might try getting some recreational math resources, unrelated to what is being taught in class, to help your son realize that not all math is bad. Martin Gardner or Theoni Pappas books, Vi Hart videos, manipulatives like Zometool, these can all be fun ways of exploring math. (I just made a post about this here.)

Thank you so much. just last night he did his entire worksheet of math which consisted of 15 double digit multiplication problems in 20 minutes. He showed his work and also got the answer right. We told him he only has 30 minutes to complete it and that seemed to help. I'm starting to think that if he is not given directions as far as how long he has to complete something he will just sit there and not do anything. That seems to be the biggest issue

You've already received great advice above, but I'd add one thing here - don't assume that a child is sitting and not doing anything simply because they aren't given directions. There are so many things in what you've written that sound like a child with an LD, and even this is one of them - the ability to seemingly work without effort on one assignment yet be stumped by another, and the "look" of sitting and doing nothing. I can't tell you how many times I saw my ds with that look, and how many times his elementary school teachers thought he wasn't trying simply because he didn't *look* like he was trying.

I can't tell you if what you're seeing is dysgraphia or not, and really, it's probably too early in the game for even you to know. I'd watch closely while your ds goes through RTI and his evaluation and see if you can make sense of when he's challenged vs when he's able to complete his work. Also be sure to ask for a thorough evaluation for LD, not just tell the school he needs to be evaluated for dysgraphia. It might be dysgraphia, but there are so many overlapping symptoms of LDs it's really tough to tell without testing etc.

Best wishes,

polarbear

DD9 was failing in 4th grade math last year. (Everyday Math.) I called over to the local high school and asked the calculus teacher if she had a girl who enjoys math and would like a tutoring job. She had several!
Once a week we met with this tutor (who was just lovely btw. Pretty, smart, a cheerleader, lots of friends, LOVED math!) and she sat with dd doing homework and going over multiplication tables.
We found that DD just needed someone who wasn't emotionally involved to sit with her for her homework. She shut down for dh and I each time we tried to help.
DD is loving math this year and is doing well! We still have a tutor for her once a week just to make sure that she is keeping up. It is well worth the $10 an hour!

Similar situation: 9 year old 4th grader at a gifted school (different state) hates the literature class and just won't do any in-class assignments. We are trying to meet with the principal and teacher and not getting very far--they say they will differentiate but they don't really understand that additional assignments about a book that my daughter is "done with" don't really help. It's difficult though because I don't think they believe she's unchallenged because she just won't produce anything. We have these issues here and there during school and typically if the work gets ramped up, so does her output, but I do wonder about LDs. Based on the original description of Cola's problem, I'm a bit surprised that so many suspect a LD because it sounds like outright boredom to me. In this situation, what are the indicators of a LD?

There are many lists of learning disability indicators found online via web search. This is one from the website of the National Institute for Health (NIH). It can be difficult to tease out LD from boredom, gifted traits, etc. Parents may wish to be aware of possible misdiagnosis, as outlined in this SENG youtube video. There is also a book, Misdiagnosis and Dual Diagnoses. Eides' book on The Mislabeled Child may also be helpful.

For a learning disability, Wrightslaw provides guidance for advocacy.

Occupational therapist and psychiatrist called me today. They looked over his work and said they can't diagnose anything only recommend he see an outside specialist. They did however say they reviewed some of the work his teacher gave and his handwriting isn't horrible and they can figure out what he's writing but its pretty tough. They are going to advise his teacher allow him to utilize the computer for typing as much as possible. They also won't do an IEP unless there is a diagnosis or he is in special education. I then asked if they would be able to assess his motor function and they said they can do a full eval based on his motor functions and then only advise if I should seek outside help. Grrrrrrr!

I did ask them about why they can't do anything if he is failing 4th grade math at the moment and they said that unless at the end of the year he has to be held back for failing they do not implement any kind of assistance.

Wow.

Cola, I'll second all of master of none's advice above, and add one thing - it's easy to get caught up in the battle over getting help at school and sometimes that can take the focus off of the larger picture - helping your child. Getting your child what he needs at school is extremely important and worth fighting for, but it's also important to acknowledge that school might not be 100% of the answer, and some of what your ds is going to need may have to come through outside evaluations and therapies. It would be nice to have the answers all wrapped up by the school, but that's just not realistic in terms of an expectation for most kids, not just 2e kids. We have had to put a lot of extra time and unfortunately $ into private therapies and advice over the years, but it was worth every danged minute and penny for us because ultimately that's where our ds received the tools he really needed to access his education and to be successful for the long term.

I hope you'll be able to advocate successfully within school, but also caution you - don't wait for it to happen. The earlier you can get the help for your ds that he needs, the smoother his long-term journey through the world of living with 2e will be.

Best wishes,

polarbear

Cola,

I don't agree with what the school is telling you. You should not need an outside expert to diagnose a learning disability. From what I have read on your threads, your son is having problems with english and math, but no behavioral concerns or other problems (language, sensory, speech etc.)? This would fall firmly in a learning disability camp, and not a medical condition. Have they indicated that they had specific concerns in another area?

I had a similar situation with my daughter at her school. Because she is gifted, and recognized as such, I had a much higher bar to meet in their eyes regarding her difficulties at school. However, since your son is failing subjects, that should be an immediate indication that he is struggling with a learning disability. I did see somewhere that you live in Arizona? I did a quick scan of their Dept. of Education web site and didn't see what I was looking for. In my case, when the school refused to do an evaluation, I filed a mediation request with the State Department of Education. The mediation request required the school to meet to resolve the issue within 30 days of my request. Let me tell you, it was a whole different ballgame after that. That puts the school on a legal time clock for progressing your son's evaluation and requires them to document their decisions or refusal to do additional testing.

You can also file a request for the school to pay for outside testing. They are claiming that they cannot diagnose him with anything? If they evaluated him in an area, and you feel their assessment of him is wrong or incorrect, you can ask them to pay for an outside evaluation. Furthermore, if you get an outside evaluation at your own expense that finds a disability in an area the school refused to evaluate, IDEA would require them to pay for that evaluation as well. IDEA has many of these safeguards to keep the school from stonewalling you.

I don't know if you have special education advocates in your area. I would look into getting one. They tend to be low cost special education experts (in most cases former special education teachers) that you can pay an hourly fee and who will accompany you to any meetings regarding your son. They can really be a good resource in helping you understand the law and deciding what testing is best for your son. I would not settle for a 504 plan if you feel he has a learning disability. Though a 504 would list accommodations for your son, it doesn't have any metrics requiring them to improve his learning problems. In a situation where the school isn't providing appropriate accommodations, progress towards improvement can be difficult under a 504. Imo, a 504 could be okay for accommodations like extra testing time or a behavioral plan for ADHD, but would not be as good as an IEP for a learning disability in a specific area like dyscalculia, especially if the child is failing a subject and already behind his peers.

I second master of none's comment around verbal communication with the school regarding this stuff. Start documenting conversations by email or in writing. If you are going to move forward with this process, you are going to need evidence of denials, poor decisions, testing results, etc. to put pressure on the school.



kitkat24

Just received an email from his teacher when I asked for information as to how he is doing at school:

* work they do at school is not being done or is not being turned in (not homework but class work)
* him and another kid are doing a science project and knows how to build the "experiment" but explain how it works
* "forgets" to bring home something if it isn't directly handed to him and if he isn't told to put it in his back pack. For example we had a daily report coming home about how he did, then all of a sudden we weren't getting it. Teacher told me that he wouldn't pick it up out of his mailbox. But she won't just give it to him and tell him to put it in his backpack as she thinks he needs to be responsible and do it himself.

I have no idea what to do at this point. he does his homework at home, and we have even had him do some extra work that was never completed. We have had "grounded" him, praised him, even told him once his grades are up he can join gymnastics as right now he only does Karate. I don't know what I'm dong wrong. We've tried being harsh, kind, indifferent, hounding him to get stuff done, stood over his shoulder constantly, let him be "independent" in hopes he would WANT to do well in school but nothing is working apparently and I'm at my wits end

I wake him and his sister up, but he gets dressed on his own and goes to bed on his own (sometimes if we don't know what time it is he will come in right at 9PM and tell us its time for him to go to bed). He's excellent about making sure he's home on time if he is outside playing with friends. He does very well in Karate and listens attentively and follows directions (but yes he does talk to the other kids and goof around when allowed). I'm trying to get the help from the school but it just doesn't seem to be working. We spoke with him briefly about possibly changing schools (he went to 3 different schools in 2nd grade and then was accepted into this program) but he is completely against that idea as he now has friends for the first time (he never got along with the other kids but since he's been with these same kids since middle of 2nd grade he's socially extremely happy). He watches Bill Nye The Science Guy and the Smithsonian Channel on TV and loves to do experiments and build things but when it comes to just sitting and "learning" and then writing down what you know he completely collapses. This year's class is completely different than last years but I don't want to just blame the environment he's in if that makes sense. Otherwise he's going to suffer the rest of his educational years.

When you say they're "doing an evaluation", I'm wondering, have you actually sent a signed letter or signed a form asking them formally to do an evaluation?

Save any emails you get from teachers as documentation of classroom problems. Also, you need to put in a written request for a comprehensive evaluation. Our school tried to feed me a bunch of ** about how they need to do "interventions" before they would evaluate but it says right on top of the eligibility checklist that interventions are not needed if a parent requests an evaluation. Find out what the policies are in your state. You should be able to call your State and talk to someone in the Special Ed Department. The schools here give this info to parents in their procedural safeguards booklet which lists the numbers for the State and various other advocacy groups. They are required to give this out to parents every time there is a meeting or they are refusing to do something that a parent requests. Here's a link about "Child Find". http://www.wrightslaw.com/info/child.find.mandate.htm
Write them a letter (I addressed it to the principal) requesting a comprehensive eval and include your specific concerns that you want evaluated. Tell them you want a team meeting to discuss your concerns and the evaluation. If they don't respond within a certain amount of time (I think it's 10-14 days), I would contact the special ed director. If that doesn't get you anywhere, call the State and ask how to file a complaint against the school for refusing to do a comprehensive evaluation. It sounds like they have no idea what they are doing. It is the same here. At the last school, they had no idea how to do even basic procedures/forms. They were quickly educated by the special ed director, but only because I called the State. We got DS a reasonable IEP.