After getting my advice here on how to communicate with DD9's 4th grade teacher, we met with her on Monday. We were concerned with the fact that DD's report card had some 2's in reading and her beginning of year language arts assessment had dropped as well. We were worried about the fact that DD says she doesn't want to go to school and does not like this particular teacher. We also planned on telling the teacher that DD had been diagnosed with ADHD inattentive type. Upon the advice here, I did not bombard the teacher with loads of gifted info - just one little sheet with the symptoms of ADHD inatt. I will list what happened, and I can't wait to hear comments from you all!
DH spoke. He gave a little background on DD9 and before I could stop him explained that DD had been found high gifted and what her IQ was. He's proud of DD and having not read posts here, did not know that teachers aren't so interested in that information. She wasn't. She didn't blink. She didn't ask any questions about that.
I asked about the 2's on the report card. The teacher said that page was a mistake - we got someone else's L.A. page. The teacher explained away the low score on the reading assessment with the idea that kids forget a lot over the summer. The teacher did say it was like pulling teeth to get DD to respond to the questions on the assessment. That would align with the fact that DD tells me she just shrugs when asked things by the teacher.
DH explained that DD was miserable at school. The teacher talked about how she works with the whole family so the child can be happy. She asked why DD was unhappy. She said that DD always seems cheerful and engaged in class. I explained that DD is a kid who will never show her feelings at school. I read DD's list of problems with school (never get to learn anything new, teacher saying same things over and over), and ultimately the teacher said DD needed a psychologist to help her.

When we asked if DD could receive more challenging work as her Lexile reading scores indicated that she was working at a higher level than 4th (it's a 7th grade or more level)and that her previous teacher had pushed for DD to get more difficult work, the teacher said "DD will have to prove that she can do even 4th grade work." before she can get higher level assignments.
Finally, the teacher said that if DD wanted to do some of her work "outside the box", DD would have to come up with an idea and ask permission of the teacher. At that point the teacher insisted that DD come in, and she questioned DD about much of the above plus asked her if she did like the work and school. DD looked like a deer caught in the headlights. She was stiff and agreed that all was well in class.

SO!! I didn't think it went well....and DD acted out later after all that, poor sweetie.

Had a meeting with the psychologist the next day, told her everything that went on in the class, and she, after looking at even more of DD's tests, report cards, etc. stated that we needed to contact the school and the county's gifted dept. and ask that DD be grade skipped up to 5th. She will even work with DD's older sister who is upset that DD is already in some of her classes at school. So, I have homework here - need to write out emails to the appropriate people at the school and the county school district office. This has me pretty nervous for sure!! Big meeting ahead in about 2 weeks.

On this forum, I may get stoned for suggesting this but I think it is very important. I understand that your DD may be psychologically fragile but at age 9, she has to take a bit of responsibility for communicating and advocating for herself. In my experience, especially beyond K and 1st grade, teachers expect the students to communicate directly and is more open to what the students say and do. There is a certain mistrust if it all comes from the parents. You should prepare your DD to at least confirm what you are saying since it is likely that the administrators and counselors will want to speak to her directly.

Agreed 100%. I've had this talk with my daughter (turned 10 a few weeks ago) many times. She had a very difficult year with a math teacher last year. The situation may have improved if DD had stood up to the teacher. She's in a ne school this year, and she's trying, which is great. I know this process isn't easy for a child, especially a child who isn't a natural wavemaker, and I tell her that I understand it's hard for her. I worked with my daughter by getting her to think about what she could say (even practicing saying a few things).

I'll also add that in my experience, the best successes with my kids are with the teachers/administrators who listened and acted the first time DH and I brought something up. Unfortunately, many educators are basically ignorant about giftedness and we've often encountered so-called "education professionals" who honestly seem hostile to giftedness. It amazes me that people can be so clueless about an important part of their own fields and yet still call themselves experts. In my experience, the best solution is to avoid them.

In your situation, what's the fifth grade teacher like? How will your other child do with a younger sibling in her class? My DD10 is ahead of my DS12 in math, but he seems to handle it well --- primarily, I think because his main talent is in another area in which she doesn't excel the way that he does.

Problem is many adults have trouble advocating for themselves and teachers and children have an inherently unequal relationship. I think in an ideal world children would self advocate but don't think that shy, insecure kidsdont deserve to get their needs met.

I'll put myself in line for some of those stones, because while I do agree that it does put a lot of pressure on a 9yo to stand up to authority (especially for compliant girls who have grown accustomed to hiding their abilities for some time), the child does need to be aware that they have a role to play in obtaining their own accommodations. If the parent says one thing, and the child denies it, that just makes the parent look crazy, and the staff will do nothing, convinced that they're in the right. If the parent says the child has a certain ability level, and the child does not demonstrate that for the teacher to see, then once again, the parent is delusional, and the school knows best.

This is how I framed it to my own DD9 in previous, critical years. We had to help her see how the school sees her, and show how she can help influence their perceptions.

We also decided on a strict policy of self-advocacy first. In other words, if DD brought a school problem to our attention, the first thing we wanted to know is what she had done about it. Who had she spoken to, what did she say, and how did they respond? We might then coach her in other resources at her disposal... a different person to talk to, another approach in talking about it, etc. Only when we were convinced that she had used all the reasonable means at her disposal did we propose our own direct involvement.

Finally, I think it may be worth your while, the next time you have a meeting like this, to have your DD sit in with you from the start. You never know what ideas they might be forming about them if they're kept in the dark. We thought we were doing a good job of briefing our DD on them when she was not attending these meetings, and we found out later that much of her angst during her 1st-grade year was based on the incorrect notion that her parents were the ones who had advocated for her to remain in first grade, when the opposite was true: we were arguing consistently for a grade skip throughout the school year, and as their alternative solutions were proving more and more ineffective, their stated objections grew more ridiculous. We had quite a job convincing her of the truth, and of regaining her trust, which ended up being the root cause of a lot of her home meltdowns that year. She finally came around when we had an end-of-year IEP review with the VP, who casually said, "Well, at least we've finally put an end to all discussion about a grade skip," and DD was sitting in my lap when I retorted with, "We most certainly have not."

DS8 is very uncomfortable self-advocating, but I agree that it becomes more and more important to do so as they age. We have an agreement that he will make an attempt to self-advocate when issues arise at school and if it doesn't work out, he brings the problem to me and I take over. I see it as scaffolding. Right now he folds his tent quickly and hands the problem over, but I discuss with him my approach and the outcome so that he is learning how to take the next step. My short term goal is to build his confidence to take over that second step (or at least keep his tent up a bit longer) with the security of knowing that I will step in if necessary.

It is unfortunate that the teacher called your daughter in to the meeting without giving you an opportunity to prepare her, but now you know that she'll likely face such questions with or without you present and helping her with self-advocacy skills could be very beneficial.

I agree in theory that your daughter could have advocated for herself, but I'll be honest, I've seen teachers over the years who do want kids to be the ones communicating, because it's a lot easier to intimidate a kid. Any teacher who was blithe about giving you the wrong info, immediately jumped to recommending a psychologist, and wasn't willing to provide any differentiation doesn't sound like someone who would be responsive to a child.
That said, one thing that worked well for us was to get our sons their own email accounts fairly early and communicate to the teachers directly. When they were younger, we had them copy us (if the teacher objected, we responded that we asked them to copy us on all communication with adults). Even difficult teachers did seem to respond better when stuff came directly from the kids. I would consider having your dd send a letter or email saying that she felt bad when she was directly asked about school because she does like the teacher (this is where you explain white lies) and knows the teacher is working hard, but some things at school make her unhappy. Then, give specific examples, like, "I know 'See Spot Run' is a good book, but I read it when I was 4. At home now I'm reading 'The Odyssey.' Sometimes at school I wish I could read more challenging books."
Good luck - with this teacher, sounds like you'll need it!

If I find the teacher scary then I guess to ds7 he is even more scary. I am glad it works for you kids but it sounds a lot like refusing to help the victims of domestic violence because they aren't strong enough any more to leave.

To the OP. Maybe brief both DH and DD thoroughly before the next meeting.

Eta. I like the idea of email communication though. Although there is a risk the teacher will think it comes from you.

Not quite. It's that other people are more likely to believe that domestic violence happened when the victim says, "Yes, he hit me. See these bruises?" Around here, at least, the police and others are limited in what they can do until the victim speaks up and asks for help (excepting the obvious, like a witness seeing violence). I've seen it happen, and when the victim asked for help it was offered immediately. When help was sent to the victim before that, she rebuffed it and there was nothing anyone could do.

It's the same in most areas in life, and childhood is a very good time to learn how to stand up for yourself or ask something of an authority figure in a way that helps you get what you want. I tried advocating with my eldest's school about his math placement 3 years ago. I even had test results. They ignored me. When DS went to them and told them his course was too easy, they changed it immediately.

Okay, things don't always work so nicely, but for the most part, you can't expect to get help unless you ask for it, especially if the help you're asking for is a special accommodation. This is usually the case with gifted kids.

Having the whole family be on the same page is critical -- and that means DD too.

That said: there are people who get it (and sometimes still can't give you what you want), people who don't get it but who will listen and try, and people who are never going to get it no matter what. The teacher sounds like the third type.

Sounds like you are doing as much as you can. Way to go!

Agree.

And in those cases, when the parent gets involved, the teachers blame the child. "Well, DC never said anything about it to me." This is one of the reasons why self-advocacy is so helpful, because when it is time for us parents to step in, we're in a stronger position. We begin the conversation by describing the situation and the things our children have done in an attempt to resolve it. That cuts off the go-to excuse right there, and adds an unspoken, "Why has it gotten to the point where I need to be personally involved?"


Children in my school district are not allowed to communicate with the staff directly via electronic media of any sort (email, social networks, etc) to avoid any inappropriate contact (grooming, etc) or its appearance. All communications must pass through the parents' accounts.


During DD's difficult 1st-grade year, we asked her to write a letter communicating her feelings about the school situation. I read it aloud during one of the meetings. The body language of the staff members all said, "I don't care, I'm not listening."


And vice-versa. Our children know that adults can be unpredictable when challenged by a child, and the adults in question control a lot of their lives, and can make things very uncomfortable. Children DO get bullied by school staff, and my DW has seen direct examples. They're often going to consider it in their best interests to say nothing and avoid escalation, and they'll only gain the confidence to speak up when they're convinced, by words and by actions, that their parents have their backs.

Also, the child backing the parents is not limited to the meeting. For example, if the parent says the child has a certain skill level, the school is going to require confirmation. The child needs to be prepared to demonstrate those skills.


ITA. That staff member's action was totally inappropriate. The next time you have a meeting with the school, they're going to bring up your DD's responses, and how they are inconsistent with your message. My response would be, "That's what happens when you ambush a 9yo."

It's so interesting to read about all the different school policies, and I appreciate the perspective they bring to each discussion. This makes complete sense, but I had never heard of this kind of policy previously (probably why I didn't understand the earlier reply that it might be difficult to tell the identify of the person sending the email!). We have had a few teachers over the years very specifically say that they don't want parents involved in these discussions, and if it gets to the point of a parent being involved, they want an administrator there as "witness." Perhaps that is part of the reason that I am suspicious about teachers who ONLY want to talk to the kids and not to the parents-these are usually the same teachers that allocate 2 minutes at the end of class for these student-teacher meetings (even when one is requested before or after school or during lunch) and try to steamroll the kid and shut him or her down.

Though I agree in theory that at age 9, a child should be able to advocate for themselves, in reality, it is impossible for many kids to do so. I was one of those kids who was in the OP's child's situation when I was pulled into advocacy meetings with my parents. Though I laugh about it in retrospect, I was almost traumatized at that age when I was forced to take a stand against a really stern teacher whose classroom was not at all fun to begin with.

Children can easily be the victims of adults (teachers) and they spend more waking time with these teachers than they do with their families in a day. A teacher can make life uncomfortable for a child who labeled her class as "boring" (and by extension, implying that she is incompetent at her job) in front of other adults in an advocacy meeting. My child at age 6 says that his 1st grade teacher used a "mean voice" to talk to him and though she said nothing wrong, it hurt his feelings that she used that voice to tell him to do some things in class. That is just a small example of the "bullying" from teachers that children face in school.
So, I prefer to do any advocacy by myself with a lot of data and facts to back me up and I would tell the teacher to test my child for proficiency rather than ask my child for feedback. I would also tell them that the very fact that I had to advocate and they were unable to figure out my child's giftedness through classroom observation or testing is their fault. (I am also the kind of parent who would rather change schools than get into prolonged advocacy battles, so take my post with a grain of salt!).
Any email communication between child and teacher is prohibited in our school.

A young child can communicate, but they cannot advocate. Th relationship is inherently unequal, and if you have the kind of teacher and school where advocacy is necessary, you sort of by definition need the adult to do it. Yes,the kid is like a witness in that situation, talking about their feelings and needs, maybe even bring up suggestions, but all relevant decisions will be made by adults, teachers or parents or both together and the children know this. The accommodations I discussed today with my child's teacher (subject acceleration in math versus radical acceleration via a full grade skip) are NOT things I'd want my almost 8 yo to discuss with a teacher without me.
Edited to add that the teacher mentioned that while she thought it was right to have our first conference without him, she wanted him present for the follow up meetings discussing further steps. I liked that.

I am definitely ... Give me what my kid needs (I am flexible in how you do that as long as he is being educated appropriately) or I take my toys (his very high test scores) and go home (home school or something). 1100 kids in the school ...169 kids in his grade and only 10 kids in 4th grade got his scores last year. And he could have taken the 5th grade test and gotten top scores on that one too. They can't afford to lose one out of ten kids

I had the first meeting where I got nowhere and I went home flustered and steamrolled. Regrouped and went back and talked to an administrator one on one. She took notes...I don't know if she agreed or is just very, very good with upset parents. In addition, I talked to the gifted coordinator for the district and got her on my son's team (she asked for his iq and WJ achievement scores and that was enough for her). Then things happened not quickly. But I had started making plans to pack it in and I think that it was evident in my persistence that I was going to succeed or else leave.

But I didn't involve my son in the advocacy ...although he would have told you he didn't want to do third grade math again and wanted fourth grade math. He isn't shy about stuff like that.

This.

To clarify, I'm not proposing a child practice self-advocacy for the big things, like "two years acceleration in math" or "move to a different classroom where there's more of a cluster in her ability range." I'm talking about the little stuff, like, "the librarian won't let me check out chapter books" or "this kid keeps pushing me in the lunch line."

Very very good to hear so many points of view! I was angry that the teacher flippantly stated that if DD9 was unhappy that she needed a psychologist (we have one, thank you kindly) vs. thinking about how she could enrich the work. I was also not thrilled that the teacher asked DD to prove that she could do 4th grade work when every single previous assessment from the school showed her doing above level work. I later asked the psychologist if DD needed to prove, yet again, that she was able, and it made me feel better that the psychologist said, "Of course not." The psychologist also stated that is not up to a child to come up with their own curriculum as the teacher suggested DD could do. She stated that teachers should have some ideas about how they could challenge higher level kids.

What I did take away from all the posts here is that DD could do a bit more advocating with the teacher so we practiced that this week. Success!!! DD does do well on her own handling other kids; I don't worry about that. I do feel like teachers have so much power over children so it can be very intimidating for a young student to be questioned by his/her teacher. DD had no notion that she was going to be called in. That was not fair to her. I have done a lot of explaining to her this week about what is going on between mom, dad, and the school. I also have been more firm with the teacher about DD's ADHD and made more suggestions to the teacher about how we could work on that situation. Finally, I have a letter printed out for the principals asking for a meeting to be held to discuss DD and "enrichment". That will be the next hurdle!