I met with the school psychologist at our public school today as part of the kindergarten screening. The only thing I had on the document they had asked us to fill out was dd4.5's natural facility with numbers and need for an environment that would allow her to learn at her rate. Here are some things she said.
1. Most kids that enter our school are advanced.
2. We don't have any gifted programs.
3. She is on the younger side so it is not like I can put her with first grader for math. When I mentioned that she has been in multi age classrooms for two years now and used to being around older kids, she said," yeah, but math doesn't happen at the same time for both grades. So scheduling is not easy.
4. We follow state standards and curriculum so a kid needs to go through all of the curriculum for the grade even if they know some of it.
5. If she learns advanced material now, what will she do in higher grades? ( I thought to myself, "yes lady, knowledge is such a finite thing, my child might run out of things to learn. Seriously?) instead I just said that I cannot control the rate at which she learns.
6. My kid was advanced in math. We did not do anything and now she is a happy xx( a career that does not require math skills)
7. Your kid might be good at math facts but we want them to use math to solve problems. I told her that in fact, my kid was better at using math to solve problems than memorizing math facts. i gave her one example of a problem dd solved in her head and she finally said," wow, that is really advanced! We have had one kid like that 20 years ago. Okay, let me talk to the principal and see what I can do."
So, do you think they will really work with us or will they be so set in their mentality that their goal will be to prove their point. Because one thing she said is that if dd is given second grade math, no one is going to read the problems to her. So she would have to read on her own. Now dd is reading but is by no means a fluent reader. I think that would be a recipe for disaster. Any suggestions? Things I should be prepared for? Questions I should ask? Or should I just say it is not going to work and keep her at her current private school.

Yes, it certainly sounds like an odd one sided conversation at least initially. If you are set on sending your child to this school at least to see how it goes, then (probably) no harm in trying for a few weeks.

We made the mistake of sticking with a situation that was bad for our child in ways we did not even realize, for far too long.

It is interesting and somewhat hopeful to note that due to lack of a gifted program, there might be much less paperwork and red tape in the way of getting your child at least informally assessed. Also interesting that the person you spoke with kind of pegged exactly how often a small elementary school would probably see a PG child. (and that they admit to the possibility of such a child existing!)

Hm.

Parsing the narrative, it sounds like you've gotten in behind 100+ parents and their special petunias. But in the end a break-through, it sounds.

It's like when calling technical support for something, trying to see how quickly I can get escalated to tier 3 support.

I'd stay hopeful.

It's a yellow, "proceed with caution" flag. Zen Scanner has it about right, I think.

See what they do in the face of actual evidence about what your child needs, and go from there.

Chris, the conversation was definitely one sided. I did say a few more irrelevant (to the post) things like "yes, I understand", "that's great!" and "I know". I don't believe my dd is pg but it is a small rural school so it might not be too often that they encounter even hg kids. Dh and I have already decided that if we do send dd to public school, we should be ready to pull her out anytime it gets bad.

Zen scanner, I am hopeful but also apprehensive bcos of her last comment about being able to read her own math problems. I don't want them to use her relative weakness in reading to prove to me that she is not ready for advanced math. Maybe I should emphasize that if the school does offer any acceleration opportunities. Or maybe dd will be a fluent reader by September so this will be a mute point.

DeeDee your point is well taken. As a math person myself, I try to let the data drive my decisions at work but it is harder to do when it is about your child.

Masterofnone, you give me much hope! I would be delighted and pleasantly surprised if even half of what was offered to your dc is offered to mine.

Thanks everyone.

At one of the schools I toured I got out one of the advanced worksheets DS had done (which had multiplication and division I think) and the three people I was meeting with just stared at it. They seemed a bit speechless, because they had also been claiming that DS must just know how to compute but not solve (he's in first grade). But this worksheet was not just computations. One of them asked "Does he actually enjoy doing this sort of thing or do you need to push him?" Despite seeing the work, they wouldn't budge and had basically no reasonable plan for him. That's when I knew it would never work.
It sounds like this psych "sort of" gets it (after the bad start), so there is reason to hope. See what she comes back and tells you.

honestly if it weren't for the last bit I would say it was sirens and red flashing lights. She came up with the complete list of stupid comments.

My first response is ruuuuuuuun!

But you can give it a couple of months and see if they will do anything. If they don't, then definitely leave if you can afford to. Often our meetings would go like yours. Then at the end, when they had to leave they would tell me that they would "do some research", "come up with a plan" or "look into it". That was code for, "we have other things to do and we need to get rid of you".

Agreed-- sounded like a lot of "blah, blah, blah" until she finally got it at the end.

I think after that conversation I would be quite concerned, but I agree that there was reason to maintain a glimmer of hope at the end. Let's look at things 1 at a time.

Based on your subsequent post, it sounds like you might disagree with this assessment. If the statement is contrary to fact, why would she say it? It sounds like she is just trying to ease your concerns without having to actually address anything.

That can be good or bad. Places with a gifted program (which is usually pointless for the children) often use your child's enrollment in said program as a way to argue that they are already doing everything they can be expected to do to accommodate your child.

First she states that age is the reason that they cannot put your DD in first grade math. This implies that if your daughter were older they would be able to. Later she switches the reason. That's dishonest, and for me, that's the most troubling of all the things she said. If you can't rely on administrators being honest with you, how can you possibly advocate effectively for your DD?

This begs the question of how a kid who knows the material is expected to do the work. Are they allowed to do a year's worth of work in a month? Do they really need to do ALL the repetition that might be appropriate for someone actually learning the material?

This may be a practical concern. If the school is K-5, perhaps they don't have anyone to teach pre-algebra to a 5th grader. There are times when accommodation is more or less difficult for the school.

Perhaps their daughter lost interest in math because they didn't do anything. This line of reasoning seems to be pervasive: the idea that talented students don't need accommodation, because they will reach some acceptable level of success without it. It's bunk.

There's your glimmer of hope. It may be possible to convince the school that something should be done. However, actually implementing something effective is another issue.

Taken as a whole, this conversation would really worry me. I would definitely document everything (especially given the dishonest implications you mentioned). Do you know state policy regarding gifted education? It sounds like you're going to have an up-hill battle here.

I'm gonna say that this bit:

"She is on the younger side so it is not like I can put her with first grader for math."

Is especially insane. I'd like to ask the psych if she has any redshirted kids with young for grade kids in the same class now? What's the max age difference a classroom can handle before the apocalypse arrives, I wonder?

--Signed, mom whose K kid has been splitting his time between K and 1 all year without anyone's head exploding

The only objections I see as possibly legit are the ones about your child not being able to read the problems and the one about grades not doing subjects at the same times. I can see how logistically, that could be a little hard. If your DD can already read some, perhaps she will be caught up enough to read the math sheets for gr 1? There usually isn't a lot of text or high-level text.

DS's teachers have worked really hard to have him go between the grades and not miss anything fun or special in his home grade (missing content is not a concern in either grade). It's been a labor of love on their parts, and I really appreciate it. They do teach their math/reading blocks at the same time. I believe this is in place to permit this kind of thing.

Blackcat, I am going to wait till end of this month to see if they come back with anything. I am not too hopeful.
Puffin, you are not kidding. My heart sank deeper with each of her statements.
Somewhereonearth, my instinct is also to run as I am not good in situations like this. I either completely shut up or completely lose it. If the school does not come back with a reasonable plan, I am not even going to enroll dd there.
Cammom, I felt like she was just trying to throw one hurdle after another for me to cross. I would have much appreciated if she had started the conversation with," so what do mean when you say your dd is good with numbers?"

Dad22, it is as if you read my thoughts and put them down so well in your post. I haven't researched state policies on gifted Ed yet but I know our state (ny) has no funding for that. I don't know if I am ready for a battle. Hoping the school makes it work.
Ultramarina, redshirting is common in our district. I met a couple of boys that had come for k screening who had already turned 6. So yes even within her k grade most children will be a year or more older than her. Dd has a fall birthday so she will be one of the younger ones. In her current school, she interacts daily with elementary and middle school kids, so I don't think age should be a huge issue. I agree that reading is a legit concern. However, right now she reads at about an early first grade level ( using school's leveled reading system). It is not that she can't read the math problem, but she will expend so much energy on reading that she won't focus on the math and would have to re-read for that- something that really frustrates her. But she went from zero reading to her current level in the last 4 months so maybe she will be in a good place by September. Ps. I wish I were in your school.

If and when the school gets back to me and if they want to hear my suggestions, I am thinking of some solutions. Please let me know what you think of these ideas.
1. Let me come in during math and pull her out for the right level math. She can still be required to take whatever test they give to assess kindergarten skill proficiency.
2. Allow dd to attend only 3.5 days so she can stay home with me for 1 day homeschool. This is what we do now. While I was hoping to return to full time work this year, I am okay waiting one more year. I know that the district does allow part time kindergarten.
3. Send her to first or second grade math (based on school assessment) but pair her up with a buddy who is a good reader but needs math help so the two can help each other out.
Do any if these make sense? I know I may never be asked for these but I want to be prepared just in case.

I think these are all great suggestions. I'm thinking that the one that could most easily be presented as in the best interests of the school would be #1, as you could even offer to help with some differentiation groups once a week, or some other parent volunteer-ish-type activity. Additionally, her pace of math instruction would not be limited to a lesson a day in a higher level of math, but would be whatever she can handle.

Thanks aeh. You have a great suggestion there so that school would view me not as their adversary but partner and helper. I like that.

I know I have experienced all of those responses. I am trying to decipher how those canned responses are so aptly rolling off of these taxpayer employees' tongues: Is it...

-something they learn in school,
-how the non-geniuses really feel,
-total chaos and disorder (no good leader at the top),
-they will always deny genius (think Davidson / Laura V. book),
-possibly something they learn in a school union?

We are not sure, but still keep trying to figure it out, because how else can we make progress?

On a related note, look at the rubrics the public schools use to 'rate' your child. I have to blink hard when I see that a leadership driven gifted child gets a 3 out of 4, because the school does not want any children 'making waves.'

As I always say, this is where humor comes in. I still have a great imagination so I picture Jerry Seinfeld doing a bit on what we are experiencing now.

Also, it always comforts me to know that the gifted scholar can get up to speed on any subject so quickly, even if they are trying to hold the gifted kids back, I think history and the present day have shown that you cannot hold them back. In fact, when the young students realize how they are being treated that might be the moment when they realize they are in charge of their own future and then the parent does not have to advocate to the same degree and that young person knows how best to advocate for themselves.

Our child is still young, so we are always looking at other options. That may be an inherent gifted trait. We are always looking at all options and trying to think of some new ones. Hang in there. You are not imagining it. I know it is disturbing because they don't seem to understand what is going on and you are paying them.

It may also be that things will be different when they meet your child. The only thing about that is that math talent tends to be less obvious than verbal talent in the lower grades.

We have never gone in to talk to schools ahead of time, choosing to let our kids "out" themselves. This is partly because our kids are pretty extroverted and obvious and partly because we feel coming in ahead of time tends to produce this kind of reaction, especially if you do not have anything on paper. I do kind of think they've been trained to say it--let's face it, there are a lot of parents out there who do say this kind of thing, or so I hear, anyway.

Even after school starts, we wait a few weeks to say anything. I want the teacher to have time to get to know my child and get a sense of him/her. But this has to be harder if you have a quiet child.

Wesupportgifted, your last statement is spot on. We moved to the district mainly for the "good" school district and we pay a lot in property taxes to live here. It is very disturbing that the school is not even willing to just listen to my side.

ultramarina, I would not have approached the school on my own but when they gave us this questionnaire,I felt it as appropriate to list that math is DD's strength. I did not use any words such as advanced, gifted, needs enrichment/acceleration etc. I kept it matter of fact. DD is social but likes to see everyone happy. She will never show what she knows (to people outside close family) until she is put in a situation where she has to. She is a goof and hides her abilities pretty well. Her current teacher still does not know that she can read! I am working with her on this but she also needs my help to speak up on her behalf. Granted, I do not do a great job at that myself as I am similar to her.

Your area sounds a lot like ours. It is a good school district with standardized test scores almost always in the top 1% of the state (same for the two adjoining districts). However, I have yet to meet a kid who was challenged in K. People complain about the lack of challenge in K. Next year, they are going to full day K, so maybe it will be better (though there were a number of not very well thought out issues with full day K).

Academics probably won't be challenging for a while. I know you don't want to hear that, but I think it would be very difficult to meet each kid where they are in math, reading, writing, science, music, etc. There is so much variation in the elementary kids. While things will likely never "even out", the differences are typically not so huge as they get a bit older that they can group/track to form more appropriate placement by HS.

As I read through here, I think that folks would say I was "damaged" by my elementary experience. I am not PG or anything close, but I was reading by age 4, chapter books by age 5. I went to a highly regarded private school, but I recall tracing letters a lot (I was writing stories of a few pages by then) and the most difficult math problem we did all year was 5+5 (because the answer was double digits - all the other addition problems resulted in single digit answers).

I think things have changed for the better now. The problem might be that if you live in a "good district" that there are a number of kids who are beyond K math. Some may be gifted, some may be hothoused, but if I saw one kid get accommodated, then I would want my special snowflake accommodated too. No matter that my kid isn't really all that bright, but I don't want my kid getting behind. As I noted on the MAP math thread, my kid probably messed up her future in math (right through senior year) this morning because I doubt she got 96th percentile (since she refuses to "learn ahead"). I will have to go to bat for my youngest snowflake because she refuses to be hothoused.

NotsoGifted, I am not sure i follow all of your post. Dd4.5 is not just slightly ahead in math but 3 years ahead. So while I can see how a large % of kids in good districts might be 1/2 to a year ahead, I seriously doubt that many are 2+ years ahead. So as long as the district had strict requirements for acceleration, not many parents would be able to demand accommodations for their little snowflake.

So today when I went to pick up dd from her current private school, her teacher and I started talking and I mentioned, for no reason, my frustration with public school and how I may just keep dd in the school for one more year. The teacher said that if I decide to do that, my dd would be very happy in ms. Y's class. Ms.y teaches 1st to 5th grade in a multi age small class of 10 students. I was a bit shocked to hear this and reminded teacher that dd will be in k next year so will continue in her class. Teacher said that she and ms.y have been talking about dd and thinking that she would be a better fit in the elementary class than the primary next year. Teacher admitted that there was not much she could offer next year if dd stayed in her class. I was obviously taken by surprise with this conversation. So I asked her if we can setup a time to sit down and talk about what this would mean. The cynical part of me feels the school is trying to lure us to stay but if it means dd will be happier, then I am okay. Dd of course heard this whole conversation and has been spinning dizzy with happiness singing ," I am going to skip kindergarten. First grade, here I come." I am trying to reel in her excitement, lol!

I understand that she is very advanced in math. Maybe take a look at the older kids in your district - how many take Algebra I as 6th or 7th graders? How many take Calc BC in 11th or earlier?

If there are significant numbers - entire classrooms of kids, not just one or two kids - there may be others who are advanced in math. Our district claims (not sure I believe it) that almost a third of 4th graders score 94th percentile or higher on the Spring MAP math test (and that score would translate to a 75th percentile score for a 6th grader). I do think that there are significant numbers of kids who are two years advanced in math, at least in the "good districts". Now whether they got there by hothousing or by natural math talent is a different matter.

I'm not sure anymore what represents two years ahead. Our district says if the 4th graders score 96th percentile or higher on MAP math (plus a few other lesser requirements), they skip 5th grade math and go into 6th grade math. What the heck is regular 6th grade math anyway, since it doesn't seem to be Pre-Algebra? Fortunately my snowflake pulled a 98th percentile score today, so I don't need to be "that parent".

The problem for your kid is that she is ready for advanced math now, not in 5th grade. Unfortunately, in our district, 5th grade is the first opportunity to go into advanced math. This is DD9's first year at this school, so she may not have suffered years of boredom in math class, but there are plenty of others who have been waiting from K-4th to do some more challenging math.

It is a problem, but not sure how to address it. Our kids went to a private school in early elementary. Not more advanced, but it was foreign language immersion so that helped keep them busy. I really don't see this issue addressed in our district until kids are older (5th grade and beyond). There are always kids in our district that take Pre-Algebra in 5th grade - they just take the middle school bus and take a first period math class, then are bussed back to elementary. Find out if there are accommodations like this when she is a little older. I know that fifth grade seems like a long time away. Good luck with the process.

Not sure if this is what you meant, but be careful about interpreting equivalent percentile scores. They mean, "a 6th grader getting this score on this test would be at the 75th percentile for that age group." They don't mean that "a 4th grader getting this score is two years advanced in math." They just mean "a fourth grader getting this score on this test is really good at the stuff tested here." Out-of-level testing is required to make the advanced-or-not determination.

Now that I think about it, I'm not sure why they even include those equivalent percentile scores. They seem to sow confusion.

Ugh, the only legitimate "problem" on that whole list is that classes don't do math at the same time. That's a real issue, for sure, though still something that can be worked around. If your DD is very independent, could she do math on the computer at her level while the other do K math?

There is a glimmer of hope there at the end. I'll cross my fingers for her. It sounds a bit like presenting actual evidence might get you somewhere.

I realize that the percentiles don't mean my kid can do 6th grade math - heck, I'm not sure she can do what I term 4th grade math. However, I do think most folks in the US would say that an 11th grader or below in Calc BC would be two years advanced. I would consider "normal" to be Calc AB/Calc I as a senior.

What is K math these days? If the 6th grade math my kid will do next year isn't even Pre-Algebra, what the heck are they learning all those years in elementary?

MAP testing is adaptive and shouldn't have this issue to the same extent as many tests. I believe the test does change at the 5/6 boundary, though, so it would be more useful to compare grades 3 and 5 than 4 and 6.

Um. Do we really have to answer that?

Notsogifted, thanks for clarifying. I do get your point now. I don't believe our district offers many ap classes in high school, so not sure if that is because of lack of funding or lack of students who would take them. Also I think I see your point on being ahead and it's meaning. I did my schooling outside US and the math curriculum in my home country is about 1.5 to 2 years ahead of math curriculum here. So I guess it is all relative. The thing with dd is she has learnt all of the math she knows with no formal Instructions. So I can see the difference but maybe educators cannot.

Aufilia, I LOVE your suggestion. School does provide Ixl.com subscription for all kids. I can send in an iPad and dd can easily navigate the site as she has done it at home. Plus, with the site, you can hit on the speaker and have the computer read the question to you. I will definitely add that to my list.

I do have a meeting setup with dd's current private school teacher next week so keeping my fingers crossed about that option as well.

I would say not necessarily. You may want to give them time to actually observe your child. K is really tricky, partly because most/many parents think their children are far more above average than is actually the case. This is particularly so in schools with a highly educated demographic. The other issue is that math is really a second class citizen until at least 2nd or 3rd grade. The school is focused on developing readers and writers in K and first and really don't care that much about math. I don't know how advance your DD is in math, but the school may not care even if she is doing algebra. Again, I am sure that many parents will disagree, but personally I did not feel comfortable accelerating my DS in math until his writing skills were more than sufficient to avoid the necessity of special treatment. Of course, at our school it would have been logistically tricky and labor intensive to accelerate a child in math if he lacked the requisite reading and writing skills because reading and writing constitute a huge part of math.

Quantum, just saw your post and see your point. As I mentioned earlier in this post, dd is at least at early 3rd grade level. She can read and write as good as any early first grader, so she is not terribly advanced there but def above k level. But I totally see your point about the focus being on language arts. I will wait to see how this plays out.

Met with dd's private school teacher today. She told me that since dd is academically ready for it and since there is not much the primary program can offer her next year, the director, the elementary teacher and she have met and decided that dd should skip k and go to first grade next year. The elementary classroom is a mixed age from 6 to 11 yo and dd will be the youngest as a newly turned 5 in fall. I am happy about the academic fit but very worried about putting my little baby in a class with 10 and 11 yo. When my brain clears so I can think, I will start another thread or maybe just look through past threads here on skipping a young for grade kid. But at least, this takes the public school out of the equation, I think.

My daughter skipped kindergarten in a similar situation at the same basic age as yours. I can only speak for her, but it wasn't a problem at all. It actually worked out well for her, because they saw that she needed to be double-skipped in two or three subjects. Doing this was easy in that type of classroom.

Thanks Val. Do you mind if I PM you with my personal concerns about the skip to get your opinion?

Go right ahead!