DS8 and I are just over the halfway point in our first year of homeschooling. I am keeping the curriculum very light, bordering on unschooling, practically. The one subject that I really want to keep up is math, and we've run into a stumbling block.

Our math curriculum is primarily Life of Fred; we started with Apples this summer (for the sake of completeness), and DS is now nearly finished with Fractions. What has gone from fun reading the book together has turned into crying and screaming. When we get to a tricky "Your turn to play" problem, or a Bridge, he becomes belligerent and claims that the book never taught him how to _____. When I offer to show him how to do it, he refuses and stalks off to his room. We've made almost no progress since the beginning of the year.

We tried Beast Academy briefly back in December, with similar, angry results. If he can't figure out how to do a problem instantly, it is "way too hard" and he won't tackle it.

The problem as I see it is two-fold. One, DS seems resistant to even slightly challenging math. Two: DS seems to have memory issues regarding what we've covered (not only forgetting what we've covered, but forgetting that we even covered the topic at all). And I guess a third problem in that DS gets angry in what I assume is his frustration with the first two problems.

So what to do? He is ahead, grade-wise, in math, but I don't want to back off completely just because he doesn't like doing hard work. I feel like I need to push him a little, but it seems that even the lightest nudge results in frustration.

(I should add that DS is a rather mathy kid. He adores Vi Hart. He delights in playing with mobius strips and reading about fractals. He spends several hours a day writing games in Scratch.)

He was having a hard, confrontational time in school before you pulled him out, wasn't he? I just wonder whether something a bit on the routine side might be better for him for a bit. Would he get on better with "sheet of sums" style maths daily, with LoF left as an optional supplement? You're in it for the long game; you obviously need to avoid giving him only things he can already do, but it would be OK if progress was slow this year and the challenges he got were all of his choosing. Working on hard problems in maths is super-important, but it's only going to happen if and when he's willing. I think, given that he's doing recreational maths and hasn't been out of a bad school situation that long, I'd be going for peaceful for now, with a calendar note to reconsider in a year's time.

I would expect that the memory issues were most likely due to the anger issue. Does he forget things he chose to do?

I don't know if I have any useful advice- just commiseration. My DS7 stomped off in tears this morning because we're working on a challenging math (long division). He is both a perfectionist and an applied learner- can't tolerate too much "instruction" without breaking down.

I'm not a homeschooler, but I wonder if there are things that are less challenging, but useful for your son at age 8? My DS does timed tests at school (math facts)-easy problems, but he's getting fast, so I can see the benefit. My point is that it could be developmental- he may get better at handling frustration as he ages, and there are still plenty of useful things to do in the meantime. As a homeschooler, you have the luxury of jumping around- either to interesting things that he doesn't need specific knowledge to complete, or easier things like math facts to increase speed.

One tactic that I used at home (controversial probably) is to put a small bowl of raisins, jelly beans, etc. out. Whenever DS finished a particularly difficult section of a problem without a fit, or really anything tedious, he would take a small treat. It helped keep him focused and gave him a little incentive/rule- he a bit obsessive about rules, so this works very well.

Also, very small chunks. Because DS goes to private school, I only require one problem per day (no more than 10 minutes) and he needs to check his own answer (via multiplication) before showing me his work. Even if I were homeschooling, I would break hard or tedious work into small allotments.

Good luck.

He is both a perfectionist and an applied learner- can't tolerate too much "instruction" without breaking down.

:nodding:

This is also my DD.

Here's what works with her--

I do a problem, explaining as I go-- oh, and the other trick that I've learned is that the problems have to be HARD. REALLY hard-- hard enough that a cobbling-together of previous skills WILL NOT work to solve them, or she'll use what she knows rather than what I want her to learn.

We also work on either a large white-board or on a large plate-glass surface like a big window-- it's more fun, and dd's handwriting issues are less of a problem.

Then I ask questions-- or make errors ON PURPOSE... and have her 'check' my work.

Then I let her show me one.

The handling frustration thing, well-- I have no great advice for you there but to keep applying gentle pressure, because it DEFINITELY doesn't get better if they are permitted to quit what they find the slightest bit challenging. Goldilocks effect. Big time. Think about ways to stretch that proximal zone so that his tolerance improves over time. No-- it isn't going to be pleasant for either one of you. But it has to happen or he'll be in real trouble as he gets older.

Some tips for math in particular--

pick up older copies of used textbooks-- just for the 'challenge' problems in them-- use those to "work on math" together as I described above.

DD has learned everything through trigonometry and statistics using that method. In algebra II I added a brief kind of 'recitation' to things, and expected her to take notes. But that was when she was 12 or so and needed to develop note-taking skills for college.

Sometimes gifted kids have trouble when they're confronted with a problem (especially a math problem) that they can't solve immediately. I suspect that they get used to seeing the solution immediately and internalize the idea that solving it immediately is how it's done. Sometimes they need to learn that you may have to think about a problem for some time before you can figure out a way to solve it.

My DD had this problem badly until recently. I've been working with her a lot, and have explained this idea to her many times. It's finally starting (starting!) to sink in. She doesn't give up immediately, but she still hasn't internalized the idea completely. For example, she's studying for the regional spelling bee. She didn't get "odyssey" or "arraignment" on the first attempts recently and said, "Maybe I'm not so good at spelling after all." This from a 9 year old who beat the middle school kids to win the local spelling bee!

Do you think your son could be shutting down because he feels intimidated?

We had many of the same issues. Val is right, I think. Some kids just intuit math at the early stage so easily, that they expect if they can't immediately see the answer in their head, then they can't do it. We had a break down because I wanted to at least move DS6 up to a place where he would learn to be challenged. Stupidly, to me, that involved moving him faster through more work. That broke him. So we took about six months off math. Since he already had math fact fluency down, and I didn't want him to lose it-- so those six months he was asked to do three problems a day on the white board. These were easy, calculation problems--no story problems, just remember the algorithms and do them fast. We did long division, double digit multiplication, basically +/-/*// all kinds of numbers. Three problems, easy for him, but good for keeping up fluency. It took him less than 5 minutes most days. Now we are again working a curriculum, this time without the anger and frustration. We do Singapore WB and CWP. He has gone through .75 of 4th grade in a month. For us, a lot of getting rid of the hysterics when things got rough was changing programs and moving into a lot less busy work. Also making it so that he is doing most of the work a bit below actual ability level (I actually think the basic Singapore WBs are ideal for this) but then throwing in two more difficult problems a day from the CWP, or skipping that if he is acting particularly frustrated that day.
I have learned to see the future as this: DS could have basic elementary math down within a month or two. There is little that he does not just get. He is solid on calculation and math fact fluency too, which makes life easier. BUT, I can't accelerate the process of learning to tackle longer, more thought provoking problems. I can't accelerate challenging him. He can intuit many supposedly challenging problems in his head, but as soon as he comes across ones that make HIM think, he struggles. I can't change that. I can only make it so that those types of problems appear occasionally, and that he slowly gets used to the idea of doing them. It is a slow process that takes a lot of building to get to. I have to learn to take the long view and very slowly and gently build him up to it.

It's so much easier to think about this on the weekend, when no one else is awake and we're not actively trying to do school.

ColinsMum: Yes, his last year of school was very difficult, and I'm sure he hasn't recovered fully. He hates sheets of problems, and while I could try it, I'm pretty sure he'd look at me like I was nuts for even suggesting it. But yes, we are definitely going slowly right now, and I'm not concerned about that. I'm just worried about math grinding to a complete halt because "it's too hard."


DS has a great memory for lots of stuff. Minecraft (and other games), Scratch, survival techniques, and so on. But they're all things he chose to learn and is passionate about. He is not passionate about fractions. (Does Vi Hart make videos on request?)


Cammom: We are using some tasty carrots, too, in getting DS to do math. We have a Singapore workbook that's just below his level. He gets some game time for each page he finishes, plus 10c towards buying a game he really wants. He's not exactly ripping through the book, but he is making progress. This is probably the most tedious math that's available to him, so it's completely up to him if and when he does it. Allowing him to work out of order was key, too, so he feels he has some control over what he does.

And yes, we do our math in very small chunks. A typical LoF chapter these days is 2-3 pages of text, with half a dozen problems. He can stop after one chapter. And while I would love to finish a chapter a day, it's been more like a couple of chapters a week recently.


HK: Perfectionism is a drag. I will think about making my example problems difficult. And getting lots of math problems from other sources. Here's what threw him off a week or so ago: If presented with the problem 1/10 x 5 1/2, he knows what to do. But the problem was stated: What is one-tenth of 5 1/2? Wild accusations of "they never taught me how to do that!" follow. *sigh*


When you do this (let her show you how to solve a problem), do you pick the problem, or does she?


Val:
Hmm...intimidated. Perhaps, although the stuff we're working on isn't that challenging, so I wouldn't think it would intimidate him. It does require at least a little practice, though, which is tough to implement. Hence the Singapore math and heaps of rewards for doing it. And it does sometimes require a little bit of thinking about what strategy to use, something I haven't seen Singapore addressing (yet...but we just have the workbooks, not CWP).


phey: I am super nervous about just "dropping" math, even temporarily. Can I really do this? I totally agree about reducing the amount of busywork, though. How to find the line that allows him to practice what he needs to practice, while not straying into drill-and-kill territory.... I like the idea of trying some CWP now and then. I suppose the best strategy is to start low (a grade below where he's at?) and ramp up over time. And explain incessantly that I don't expect him to get the answer immediately, or get it correct the first time.

You mention memory for things, and his response is about having been shown. Maybe his "math lens" is broken such that he has it ingrained currently that math is memory based rather than cogniton based. Maybe emphasizing real world problems rather than empty formulas would get him to engage his crticial thinking. Physics may be one way to start or look at geometric problems that can be solved with Scratch that needs some numerical analysis or look for an introduction to number theory.

YES. My DD cannot really learn math any other way. For her, the application HAS to come simultaneously-- if you try to break it down, she simply can't engage her brain to learn it.



When you do this (let her show you how to solve a problem), do you pick the problem, or does she?

It really depends on what she'll tolerate on the day, honestly.

If she chooses, I set basic restrictions;

"Pick one to show me from page ____."

or

"Can you choose one of the other challenge problems and we'll try it together?"

---------------------------------------

I'm also wondering if it is TYPICAL of him to struggle with verbal representations of symbolic mathematics. Some kids really struggle with translating the words into their mathematical equivalents.

A pizza has 10 slices-- how many slices are in 1/4th of that pizza?


For a child that has difficulty setting this up "properly" I would try the approach of DRAWING PICTURES to represent the problem. (It's a step that most scientists find necessary, in my experience-- so no shame, it's just a different way of having a mathy kind of brain.)

I have never encountered this issue so feel free to disregard my post. However, based on this initial post and your most recent one below, I am not sure that your DS is not justified in being upset. It may not be that his memory is faulty due to his lack of interest. Perhaps the lesson did not provide a strong enough conceptual background for him to understand what 1/10 X 5 1/2 really means? It is very common for children to be able to execute routine algorithms without truly understanding the conceptual background or be able to apply the concepts to real life problems. When DS10 was first accelerated in math, they tested him on real life problems and brain teaser typed questions he had never seen only after he passed above-grade level year-end tests. I was told that some parents enrolled their children in curriculums like Kumon and while they managed to pass basic routine tests, they did not have a strong conceptual background beyond routine execution of numerical operations. Your example of your DS' difficulty is actually with the intermediate step - verbal representation of a mathematical concept. I would step back further and make sure he understood the concepts first, then work on verbal represntations. In other words, show him real life problems requiring you to take 1/10 of 5 1/2 of something. Then verbalize in different ways how to ask that question. Then and only then create the equation. It is also possible that a weak conceptual background makes it easy to forget the routine steps to solving a particular type of equation. Again, I dont' know your DS so only guessing based on the limited information posted.

Yes, dropping math was a little nerve wracking for me at first. But it seems to have helped. And we still made progress even without "doing" math. Like your DS, my DS liked watching Vi Hart, reading math or using it in his own way on his own time and terms by himself. But before the break, DS wouldn't do multi-step problems. Not that he conceptually didn't get it-- he just felt that he ought to be able to do everything in one step in his brain. So a problem that had you sum some things first and then subtract from a total, would bring on big fits. Just taking a break let him develop some maturity and also play with math in his own way. I feel like we made more progress in those off months than in all our on months. There are still days were he struggles. But on those days, we only whip out the wb, and I let him feel the sense of just going through it on his own without struggle. On days where you can sense he has more patience and is calmer we tackle hard problems. The odd things about HG+ kids is that they often make these big leaps, but they do it on their own terms and time. I think that just giving him that breathing room to do stuff on his own time made him more willing to try things. Let me add that in taking math off, he actually did as much math as I would have required a day on his own terms and time. He just needed space to play with it. So he read math books, made all sorts of stuff up on paper with his pretend play and loved watching Vi's videos. The break just helped him reset. Before the break, just the mention of doing math would precipitate a meltdown. Now I occasionally get him doing math out of the curriculum without me even asking.

I don't know, but there's this one:



around which I bet you could build whatever about fractions he needs to know! (She plays fast and loose with infinity here, by the way, of which I don't really approve. But it's great otherwise. You might have him look up continued fractions, if he wants more after this.)

Ah, I love the collective wisdom of this forum. Thank you all!

The plan: We are going to step back a little, and not rush through this bit of math right now. DS has been doing tons of Scratch programming for the past month, and I really think that's where his learning is focused right now.

ZenScanner:

That is a good thought. I suspect DS thinks math comes in two flavors: the "boring" stuff (long division, fractions, etc) and the "fun" stuff (fractals, mobius strips, etc). He might think of the former as memory based, and then get frustrated.

Yesterday I asked him to show me what he had learned the previous week about a simpler way to compare fractions (he initially learned to convert the entire fraction, then DH taught him to cross multiply). At first he told me he couldn't remember how, and I could sense he was starting to feel frustrated. So I sat down at the white board and started to do a problem, when he completely took over and showed me. Yay! Maybe he just had more time to absorb the material and understand why it worked.

HK:
I haven't noticed this to be the case so far, but much of the math he's had to do has been so beneath his level, he could do it in his head. So it's very likely true for newer concepts. For example, he's understood the concept of fractions for a long time, but since he learned it (on his own) long before he had to manipulate them, I never had to deal with drawing them for him.

Quantum: It's hard for me to know what he truly groks, because he sometimes has a hard time explaining his reasoning (true for many things, not just math.) And if he encounters an old problem in new clothes, I don't know if he has forgotten how to do the old problem, doesn't understand the new clothes, or just isn't thinking about it long enough to solve the problem. I suspect the latter much of the time.

phey: I am hoping to get to the end of the current book (we have just a few chapters left!), and then we might just drop the formal stuff for a bit to see how it goes.

CM: We will take a look at the video, thanks! DS adores Vi Hart, so her videos are pure gold.

DS and I watched Vi Hart's 12 Days of Christmas yesterday and were laughing so hard all the way through.