Okay so I guess I spoke praise of the school too soon.

So Ds tells me today he's been getting in trouble for reading non-100 book challenge books at 100 book challenge time. Not that the books themselves are not 100-book challenge but because they are books from home and not from the 100-book challenge class basket (and apparently that is "not fair to other kids"). I got these books because he complains relentlessly how insipid the 100-book challenge books are. So I looked up books that I knew he would be motivated to read (adventure, fantasy, magic) and their levels and bought them and put them in his 100-book challenge bag specifically so he would have something good to read at reading time and he is getting in trouble for it! (I actually started doing it last year for this reason and the teacher had no problem with it if it were on "his level.") Because I guess the goal is not really a love for reading or practicing reading - the goal is forcing kids to read a book they find utterly uninteresting every day.

He was reading Magic Tree House's Ice Wizard Book, which is on his level (RR) and teacher threatened to take it away if she caught him reading it again. And he also got his "caught being good" ticket pulled for reading Secrets of Droon (which think is actually a level below him). He really wants to read Bionicles books (which he reads at home but I can only imagine that if he is in that kind of trouble for Magic Treehouse and Secrets of Droon I am sure Bionicles would cause quite a stir, so I have never sent them in.)

I am really angry. What is wrong with these people? Are they educators? Because with each day they look less and less like educators to me.

And it seems another big part of their goal is proving to me my child is not "really smart." Meanwhile, when I do things the school's way (i.e., force him to only do THEIR math and move at their math pace and force him to only read their books only on the level they say - he just stagnates and is depressed. But I send him to mathnasium where they let him move as fast as he is capable and nurture his love for math and he went from the 60th %ile in math to 95th%ile on the Woodcock Johnson. When I let him read what he wants the same thing happens with reading. I am seriously starting to think he learns in spite of school and certainly not because of it!

So what books does the school have in his 100-book-challenge bag? I can't imagine not allowing a Magic Tree House book? Or Secrets of Droon? Seriously???

Our schools always had copies of those books in our school library - does the teacher just not have any in her room so the other kids can't choose them, or are they a higher level than the other kids, but the teacher is afraid the kids will want to read them anyway? I don't really understand that personally - I have a child who is a struggling reader (4th grader) and the kids in her class read whatever they want to during independent reading time - most of the kids in her class are very advanced readers and reading things there is no way she's ready for, but there aren't any issues with it - not with the teacher, and not with the kids either.

Argh!

pbear

Oh Irena! I am so sorry! This sounds like something our teacher would have done... This is why I left. I just can't stomach the damage being done to my child while he is forced to NOT learn for 6+ hours a day. I hope you can soon get things working for your son. It's tough to try so very hard and feel like you are punished (or worse your child!) for it. My heart goes out to you...

I'm sure you have already though of this but is it at all possible there was a sub who didn't understand during reading? It is unreasonable to punish a child for doing as he is told. This isn't HIS issue.

It's unbelievable, really!

No it wasn't a sub - apparently this is been going on for a few weeks and he didn't tell me. He was "sneaking" the Wizard book and that's why she told him she would take it away permanently if she caught him reading it again (he kept getting in trouble for reading). Then he tried to read Secrets of Droon and got his "ticket pulled." Sorry but it's down right moronic!

Here I am putting the book in in his bag all of the time, wondering why he took it out and wondering why he isn't reading it anymore

And they spend so much time trying to convince me that DS "isn't ready" for higher level reading and higher levels math but when he's taken somewhere else or permitted by me to have free reign he really rises and he rises fast. The 100 book challenge book arguments I used to have with them (teachers) were about how he's "sneaking" higher level books that "he isn't ready for;" but at home when I would let him read higher level books that he was interested in his reading levels jump like crazy. Now he's high enough that there are "somewhat" interesting books on his level so the fight isn't about the level anymore but now it's just "he's just not allowed unless it's from the basket." (and by the way the basket is a bunch of used books DONATED to the school!) It's the same with math. I was against going to math places until May when his teacher spent an entire meeting trying to convince me DS really doesn't understand addition and "re-grouping" meanwhile at home I could see he did and he was mastering multiplication. I realized then I need to start doing something where he was allowed to move ahead when he really was ready and he is doing phenomenally.

I called the teacher and told how appalled I am that he would be punished for reading magic treehouse and secrets of droon. And how unfair that is to my child that he be punished for being on a higher level than most of the class and for being interested in adventure and fantasy books.

I've heard of this happening (school creating a ceiling to hold child back, school trying to prove child is not smart), even with a DYS who started college at age 15. I am so sorry to hear this type of thing is still happening, with gifted ed having been around for some 50 years now... so many teachers/schools/programs are working at crossed purposes with an appropriate education, both in curriculum placement & pacing, and cluster grouping with similar readiness & ability. In fact, on an ever-increasing scale, more schools may be about holding an "ahead" child back... NCLB could be No Child Learning Brilliantly.

You have my empathy. You may wish to ask your child on a daily basis what the best thing was about school, and what the worst thing was about school. This will keep the lines of communication open, he will know you don't blame him, and you will stay up-to-date.

Try advocating by sharing with the school, the positive research as found on the Davidson database, and also positive practices which are being done elsewhere.

Good idea, MON, I mentioned in my voicemail that I would be more than happy to provide the school with several copies of several magic treehouse books, secrets of droon, etc. I can even do the leveling and put the red tape on the side of the book for them (contrary to what she told DS, a 'reading specialist' is not the only who can level the books the books are leveled on the website and there is chart of correlations with other leveling systems... it's really not that a big mystery nor does it necessitate a 'specialist.') However, I am slightly annoyed that I already pay lie 12,000 in school tax alone, plus all of the fees and such and in addition I have to pay for mathnasium to get my kid taught proper math, pay for chess club at another school b/c DS can't go in school's chess club until 3rd grade, and now I have to provide books? Geeze. But I am more than willing to do it.... Amazon has used paperback books for pennies.

Exactly! Wow - so I am not imagining this! I am hoping the gifted support person and gifted program will help a little with this... I do expect it to change now that the gifted support teacher will be at the iep mtg and DS in that program.

DH and I have been referring to it as "No Child Gets Ahead" for years.

A clever friend once dubbed it "No Child Learns, Bummer" and it really stuck with me. I chuckle inside every time I see the acronym now.

So, I spoke with the teacher this morning. It was not a pleasant conversation, which was mostly my fault because quite honestly I am losing my patience with the stupidity... Anyway, it was about "obedience" and he was "disobedient" and this is to "teach him to follow directions." He was told several times he could only read books from the basket and he disobeys by reading the books I sent in from home and books from library exchange. I told her that was unacceptable, the books are on his level (because God forbid there is challenge or encouragement to go above your level) and they are appropriate and he should be permitted to read them. I also told her this should not be about "following directions" or "obedience" - it should be about READING and encouraging a love for reading.

I told her I would send in books as a donation for 100 book challenege basket for him (and others) to read. I told her I would level and label them too. In the meantime, he can read his Ice Wizard book. So I just spent over $30.00 on books for 100 book challenge basket. I am sure I'll have to do the same again when he moves to "white" level in a few months. (Gonna visit the Goodwill before then to get some books hopefully!)

I am horrified to hear about this and just want to tell you that it doesn't have to be this way. My DS is in K and is allowed to read whatever he wants during free reading time. He is on a Droon kick right now and is reading those at school at the moment.


WTF? Really? I can't even express what I think of this. I guess I'd better remove all the adult books from my house?

I did show restraint because what I really want to say to her is that her job would be much easier and probably more fulfilling if she stopped spending so much time trying to prove and trying convince me (and DS) that DS really isn't ready for higher level work and really should just be content with doing what is given to him (regardless of how insipid or below him it is).

That is such a perversion of the purpose of 100 book challenge,which is to get kids to practice and enjoy reading. Our school has 100 book challenge for 1st through 3rd grade, which combine some reading time at school plus homework reading time. In fact, the teachers encouraged the students to get books from the school library and the public library and through purchase as there is a limit to how many basekts/books the school can provide and some kids/parents don't have the resources.

This is an argument that I would pursue. Were it not for the extensive collection of 3rd to 5th grade books that DS' 1st grade teacher (who previously taught 3rd grade) kept in the room and permitted access after the first few weeks of school, my DS might well have continued to get into trouble after he finished his work early.

I try to put myself in teachers' shoes and figure out where they are coming from. A lot of the time I see that it's just that they can't handle extra work or complexity, which I get. But this is the kind of stuff I don't get. Why would she care? What is the fear? As I say to my DD: what is your main concern?

Does your DS have a history of poor performance on reading evaluations in some fashion? Is she worried that other people will ask for things like this? Is she just a very rigid and rule-minded individual? Is she mad at you for other reasons and just feeling pissy?

In middle school educational institutions may begin to value student-exhibited characteristics of setting goals, thinking for themselves, taking responsibility for ensuring they are learning, knowing when to make an appropriate exception to rules and guidelines to overcome hurdles and keep learning, and generally being self-determining. Unfortunately, our children who are self-determining at a young age may have this drummed out of them by a system which essentially breaks them with arbitrary and ever-changing rules with little philosophical consistency.

You have noticed how fast your cheetah runs when given an antelope to chase. This is a reference to Stephanie Tolan's metaphor, Is it a Cheetah?, as applied to your child excelling at math and at reading when exposed to higher level work, a challenge worthy of his potential.

A teacher/school/program presenting only lower level books so no child may feel disheartened by the idea there is more difficult material available, not only creates a ceiling but also encourages fixed mindset.

While in some cases sharing resources with teachers about the characteristics and development of gifted children may help alleviate this damage to our children (when it is unintended), in other cases educators may read or have joined forums and discussion groups such as this specifically to gain information about how to slow down gifted kids, as the teachers/schools/programs may be evaluated on closing a performance gap, achievement gap, excellence gap in their classroom. Parents may need to learn the philosophy of the educational institution, be willing to acknowledge if it is toxic for their child, and leave.

In the view of educational institutions, giftedness may increasingly be defined not as how the child IS, or learns, or thinks, or develops differently... but in terms of achievement. Achievement can be managed downwards or squelched, damaging the child by giving no-win choices. One example might be: learn by reading at your appropriate level and be considered as misbehaving -or- read below your level and be considered compliant. In this scenario, the child is forced to either be compliant by not learning... or be considered defiant and learn. This may encourage underachievement. A winning scenario would be pairing compliance with learning, in which the child is considered as engaging in appropriate & desired behavior by reading at their appropriate or challenge level.

Vast research has been done regarding underachievement. This research was ostensibly intended to avoid instilling the maladaptive behavior of underachievement in kids. Like any tool, this may be used for other than it's intended purpose. Some may glean from this research HOW TO create the maladaptive behavior of underachievement in gifted kids.

Where to go from here? Possibly acquainting the teacher/school/program with material on the growth mindset, as this is a benefit to all students?

Exactly. My feelings exactly. I am making it easy for her - I got books DS likes and are of high interest to him, in his 'designated level' per the 100 book challenge website, and put them in his bookbag. He rarely likes the 100-book challenge books and this is what we did last year to deal with that. Occassionally his teacher last year would be annoyed about the level of the book but usually she left him alone.

From what I got I took from our conversation this morning,

This;

This;

and possibly this:

He's at the highest level in the class and does well on his reading tests ...

Thanks, Indigo. There is a lot of good information in your post and eloquently put... I this I will use it when we need to discuss this again in the future. I especially like this:

Here is something from another thread to also consider... in addition to achievement being supported or managed downwards, possibly executive function may either be supported or managed downwards?
Emphasis added.

Oh, Irena.


I'm so sorry.

This is AWFUL.

If I may make a suggestion? When dealing with elementary educators, I've found that it is often successful/wise to take a non-confrontational approach that permits them (no matter how incompetent their thinking/approach) to come to the correct conclusions THEMSELVES. In colloquial terminology this could be termed the "two hands and a flashlight" model of communication.

I think that I may be confused about this. Can you help me?

(Oh, am I ever "confused" about this-- because it's RIDICULOUS.)

What is the learning objective for this activity? I'm not sure that I understand that, and I'd like to be able to support it from our end, as well.

(Make the teacher go back to-- WHY is this in the curriculum, again?)


Oh-- that's lovely! What a great thing!

(Now teacher is listening to YOU, because you are being compliant and friendly)

Hmm-- yes, I can see how that is a great goal! Uh oh, though-- what if my child isn't finding {plan} engaging enough to be compliant?? I agree that this is a big problem in a classroom. I'm not sure that I'm understanding why my child is being punished-- how will that accomplish {objective} here?

Clearly, a problem exists... wonder what WE can do to solve this... (This isn't confrontational if it's done with genuine confusion-- which, okay, is actually the only rational response here aside from ANGER, which will make teacher oppositional again.)

What do you suggest we can try so that this activity isn't feeling like punishment?


If teacher comes up empty, you can ask "Can we try -----?" questions to feed solutions in.

That teacher got me thinking about whether schools are supposed to train obedience, which led me to this long PDF by Seth Godin called Stop Stealing Dreams.
http://www.sethgodin.com/sg/docs/stopstealingdreamsscreen.pdf

In particular this bit:

This is all so mind-boggling. How could it possibly be "not fair" to the other kids? If the goal is to read 100 books, and he's picking bigger and harder books to read, it will (may) take him longer to read the 100 books than it does the other kids, who are reading the smaller books. He's giving them an advantage -- and it's not a competition with others, anyway, it's a competition with oneself!

I would be in the principal's office so much on this, they'd have to give me my own name plate. Does the principal condone taking books away from children? Does the superintendent? Does the school board? And does the newspaper know about it, if they do? The taxpayers whose hard-earned money goes to the schools might be interested to know that the people they elected, and the people those people hired, are spending their time trying to hold back the children's educations.

And as for keeping children from knowing there are bigger and better books out there -- oh lord almighty! Isn't that the whole incentive for learning to read in the first place? If I had thought, as a child, that first-grade (or worse) books were all there was in the world, I wouldn't have even bothered!

Irena, is your ds in 1st or 2nd grade? I'm sorry I can't remember which! The reason I ask is, it just occurred to me this morning - you have a teacher who appears to be very rigid about this... I'm just wondering (and speculating) that there's a good chance you aren't the first parent who's perhaps complained about this, and that may be part of the reason she's reacting the way she is. The reason I asked about the grade is that there would have been several children in my kids' 1st grade classes who were reading Magic Tree House level books at the start of the year - and some children reading books ahead of that level. For sure by 2nd grade there would have been quite a few (if not a lot) of kids in class reading at that level. I looked online and realize they are technically rated for grades 3-7, but they were mostly popular at our schools in early early elementary. I can't imagine even my reading challenged 4th grader still being interested in them at 9 years old - most of the students in her 3rd grade classroom last year had moved on beyond that level. My kids weren't in a gifted school or gifted classrooms in early elementary.

So maybe I'm off base, but I'm just wondering if maybe that's not part of it - other parents have perhaps complained too?

Seriously, I would be so beyond annoyed about this! Especially the concern about "obedience" - yikes!

polarbear

ps - from everything you've written it sounds like this is all about a teacher digging in her heels and wanting it her way - but if she does happen to question whether or not your ds is actually comprehending at this level, request her to test his reading level! Or at the very least pull out his reading level report from the end of last year. If the teacher doesn't want to, I'd take it to the principal.

Great food for thought.

Great guide for conversation with a teacher/school.

Do you think children should obey their parents? I think they should, within limits.

How can one adult keep order in a classroom of twenty children unless they are "compliant" or "obedient"?

This is an interesting question. I would suggest that keeping order is infinitely more likely when young minds are fully engaged in what they are doing. Which is less likely when they are forced into repeating material that they have mastered.

We tend to think about the traditional desk-in-rows, teacher in front mode. Your question made me think about my DS' Montessori primary (ages 3-6) teacher. She had 21 children, almost always individually working or in small groups. She also had a very peaceful classroom. She was exceptionally good at noting when a child was about to run amok and at then redirecting them and/or giving them a reminder about expected behavior. This classroom also had four or five very smart, advanced boys in it. And yet, without dumbing them down or forcing obedience, there was order.

Polarbear - he's in 2nd. Oddly I think he is one of the most advanced kids in the class - no one else from his class gets the math differientation and he said he is only of the only kids on level RR for reading. He said it's surprising how many of the kids aren't such good readers and according to him no one seems all that good math either. It's a bit odd because last year he had more 'peers' and a few kids above him and he liked that. He sussed out another guy sneaking Bionicle books during reading and they have become friends but, so far, it doesnt seem other-Bionicle-book-guy has gotten caught yet.

Anyway, the problem is not that the books are magic treehouse, nor is it the level. It's not their appropriateness either. The problem is they are 'magic treehouse books that have not been donated and made a part of the class basket.' [DS at home is reading on a 5th grade level (white and black level 100 book challenge books) but of course he can not read above his assessed level at school, which is RR.] It's about 'he is told to pick 100 book challenge book from the class red basket and those are the only books he is permitted to read. He needs to "follow directions" and read the books from the basket he is told to read from. I'm not sure any one else complains about anything at this school, everyone simply raves on and on about it and the teachers (it's like no says anything bad here or shows anger - it's a bit like "stepford parents" LOL but maybe I just have to do more digging.). Also my kid simply is not at all that compliant by nature, maybe other kids are just more compliant on such issues. Most people rave about the teachers. I was told this one was "strict but fabulous!" so I was nervous she'd be overly rigid (looks like I may be right)... I noticed many of DS's friends of Asian and Indian descent (1st generation kiddos) are very far ahead in math mostly but also in reading... From what i have observed the kids do outside tutoring amd things like Kumon and whatever else there is. However they do not seem to cause any trouble at school (not that I have seen yet) . Like, my DS's friend last year - he was 1st generation Indian and above DS in math (and would teach DS the higher level stuff when they had free time) and reading but when I asked DS doesn't "friend" get annoyed or bored or complained since he is even higher, DS said, "No he just does what he is told to do and doesn't disobey or complain. I guess it doesn't bother him as much." I am not sure what to think. I do remember one mom/neighbor last year saying about her daughter "I hope she finally starts learning something." but then didn't say anymore and went back to fake, super bubbly demeanor.


Anyway, allegedly DS is now allowed to read the Magic Treehouse Ice Wizard book. I am wondering how my donations will work, though - I am a little concenred that the books will be circulated out other classes.... not that I mind that but I do want DS to have access to at least one or two of them.

My DS's class has boxes of reading books at every level of the students in the class. If they want to try a higher level book they use the strategies they are taught about how to determine if a book is too hard for them. And there doesn't seem to be any competitiveness, this is just where the kids are. Irena's DS teacher seems determined not just to manage behavior with this approach but to avoid any kind of differentiation.

Given the cost of Montessori (hardly within the reach of a non high SES population) I think that you are dealing with a group that has already been taught the value of delayed gratification and self control at home.

Not your standard group of kids that age at all.

To be clear - DS is not running amok in the classroom. He gets "in trouble" for wanting to do higher level work - read higher level books (or books at least interesting to him) and he wants to be able to move on in math... He is not running around wild, disobedient... he's just trying to keep learning and keep his mind engaged!

Anyway, I am hoping that now that a gifted support staff person will be more involved (I meet her on Monday) and DS will be given gifted pull-out (not sure if it starts this week or next)... it will get better.

I'm not trying to argue, because my point was not about Montessori vs. non-Montessori, but rather that appropriate level learning materials (i.e. reading books at the right level) can help keep kids out of trouble. Also, at least one of those boys definitely wasn't learning delayed gratification and self control at home. (He wasn't ours!) BTW, the cost of this particular school was not much higher than other daycare/preschool options in the area. I have heard that in some areas it is frighteningly expensive.

Within limits, I don't expect my son to obey me. I don't care to wander into the judging zone of extending that to all parents. I've found a trusting, open, communicative relationship belies the need for obedience.


Through communication, rational intent, engagement, bi-directional trust building, and other tools used by effective leaders (though compliant drifts a bit away in concept as compared to obedient.) (bolds here to point out a couple of seeming problems in Irena's situation)

Irena... I hope that you didn't think I was accusing your son of running amok, not at all! It sounds like a dreadful situation and I am crossing my fingers that the new books you brought help even things out for him.

You said what I was trying to say, far better.

Yeah-- I'm really not seeing how this is "disruptive" to anyone else.

I might ask that, in fact.

To the OP, I think that your idea of donating the books to the class is brilliant. I am speculating here - maybe the teacher needs to keep a score on how many books were read by each kid and your DS reading a book outside of her database which she uses to keep track might have disrupted her methods as well as made your DS "fall behind" in the number of "approved" books he has read. By donating the books, you enabled her to enter those titles into the tracking system she has so that she can now allow your DS to read them! (the rule sounds moronic when I typed it up, but it seems that these rules and procedures are very important in PS).
I feel for your kid.
Good for you that you are able to think outside the box for them! I am sure that you can buy stacks of used books and donate them to the classroom.
Another thought - as an "accomodation", my son's ex-school allowed him to read a book of his choice during "free play" time - the time between finishing their work and the start of the next activity. Would your son's teacher accept this suggestion?

Oh no not at all ! Totally understood what you were saying. .. I was just venting more about the unfairness and silliness of it all!

.

Quite so. I apologise for helping to take your thread off on a tangent.

No apologies necessary, people! I happy to hear all thoughts and digressions !

HK, Your approach above is an art! I know this is how I should do it but not being raised in the WASP suburban way this is very hard for me... It's second nature to my mother in law, for example, (I really admire she's really got some talent in this manner) but not to me... I'm an inner city, lower socio-economic girl - I do think we tend on the whole to be more direct and confrontational.

However, since this topic will likely come up in the iep meeting in a few days, I am going to make this an outline for me to have and I am going to go by it and see how it works Having this as a script to stick to will help me keep my patience. I do bet it'd work magically.

Anyway, DS is thrilled about donating books. He said he's worried about other kids and those who come after him having some decent books to choose from He loves the donation idea.

Have you seen the work of Ruby K. Payne (http://www.ahaprocess.com/)? Of special interest may be her book, Crossing the Tracks for Love. Lots of interesting SES discussion, it's like learning a new language and culture.

The info I posted upthread was for parent information only... what a strategy of a teacher/school may be. It is not intended as a guide to your conversation with the teacher/school. HK's post is to guide the conversation. Different info for different purposes and uses.

Two thoughts:

1) This may be him showing that gifted trait of moral sensitivity? Here is a link to one article from the SENG website: http://www.sengifted.org/archives/a...d-children-and-the-evolution-of-society.

2) For a donation of books to a school, I believe you can get a donation receipt for tax purposes?

I've been following along and in just horrified for you and your son. The first thought I had about why she's being such a stickler about this for no good reason is maybe she's struggling to maintain control in general of the classroom. Then she gets hyper focused on obedience etc etc. Some teachers do really spend way more energy on compliance than learning, sadly. I really hope your talks are going to make her grow a bit. And maybe it is all about record keeping. Sometimes teachers get so overwhelmed they really do expect everyone to just go along and conform to make things "run smoothly"... But this is ridiculous.

This phrase seemed a good spring-board or segue to emphasize that once they have learned the risks/rewards of delayed gratification and self-control, self-determining kids who are taking responsibility for their education may begin to choose when each strategy (wait vs GoForIt) may best serve their needs in different situations which present themselves.

Although self-determination may be expected to emerge in middle school as a milestone for NT development, some kids may exhibit this self-determination early on.

With marshmallows, delayed consumption may lead to larger reward. A student may be wise to choose wait/delay.
With education, delayed challenge may lead to underachievement. A student may be wise to choose GoForIt/challenge.

I learned to ignore silly teacher habits / directives and have my child do what I know makes sense. Sure it's caused a couple of meetings, however, I simply won't have my child dumbing down simply because a teacher has control issues. It's really difficult for a teacher to justify to an administrator why they won't allow a student to read books beyond the level specified.