Our 6 year old (1st grade) son was tested for the gifted program last week and we obtained the results in the mail yesterday. We have an IEP meeting scheduled for next week. Apparently, the State of Florida uses the Reynolds Intelligence Assessment Scale, which I had never heard of. Here are his results:

CIX(Composite)-155 (99.99%)
VIX(Verbal)-150 (99.96%)
NIX(Non-Verbal)-144 (99.83%)

These results were followed by this recommendation:
*Regular elementary class supplemented with gifted resource room one full day per week. Other options were rejected because they provided an environment that is too restrictive.

Here are my concerns:
1. My son has already been singled out by peers as "weird." I don't see this changing as long as he's in a general classroom. His friends at after school care are ALL at least 8 years old. He does not connect with kids his age.
2. I had to push to have him tested. If the school couldn't recognize his needs, I have a hard time believing they can provide for them. In kindergarten, the principal actually suggested we put in back in Pre-K since his fine motor skills were behind.
3. I was a little floored by his scores on the RIAS. I thought we'd see that he was slightly above the cut-off point of 130. Doesn't he fall in the highly gifted category? Why the recommendation for a pull out program and not full-time gifted? Perhaps because his particular school only has pull-out? We have school choice in our county, so he can go to other schools. . .

Any insight or personal stories anyone can give would be helpful. I just want him to have the best education possible. He's already bored in school and doesn't like going in the morning. I can't see a pull out program being appropriate for him. I love his quirkly personality and funny jokes, and I don't want to see that squelched. . .

Thanks!

I am not familiar with that particular test, but if 130 is the minimum for GT, I would definitely inquire further as to their recommendation. If you feel he should be in a full-time program, than I would pursue that. Do they have any process to follow after they give a recommendation?

If he can go to a self-contained gifted program I would strongly encourage it. IMO a one day pull-out is like a band-aid. If you google there is a well-written article on the shortfalls of once/week pull-outs.

I would tend to think that the one day a week pull out option is the one offered because that is what your particular school can offer. Since the full time gifted program is not at their school they can't offer that as a recommendation. (They don't have that option in Fl.) I would guess that if you ask them about switching schools to the full time program they may say that it would probably serve his needs better. However, they can't put it in writing because the IEP is supposed to be based on what they can offer at their particular school. Since these are looked at by the state and as such are legal documents and affect funding, if they say he requires full time gifted and they don't provide it they can lose funding for all IEP kids.
We had some similar conversations with our school (also in FL) when we had our meeting for DD and the woman in charge of writing the ieps said the state is very specific about the wording each school can put on their forms - if it is put on the form, it must be followed at the school the iep was written at. I know that FL allows school choice, so I would put in for a zoning exemption and transfer him to the full-time program with the reason being that it is not offered at his zoned school. They may say that you need to have it in writing that he needs full time programming, so then you go back to your school and ask them to write a letter to the county explaining that he would need it. This gives them a way to help you without putting their funding in jeopardy by saying it is being provided.

good luck!

I think you'll ultimately need/want more than the one-day-per-week gifted pullout can provide, so I'd advocate for a full-time gifted program if one exists in your school district. If it doesn't, I'd look into any other options you can find - different district if possible, private, homeschool.

For the upcoming IEP meeting, I'd ask what is specifically meant by "other options rejected because they provided an environment that is too restrictive." Ask what those other options were - if one of them sounds like a good option to you, request it. The IEP decisions are supposed to be made by the IEP team - what you have there is a *recommendation* - not the final decision.

I would also ask for clarification re what is meant by "too restrictive" - I suspect that they are referring to doing their best to having him placed in a regular ed classroom, but you can also view "restrictive" from the point of view re is his placement allowing him to fully show his knowledge or is it restrictive in that he's not able to learn at his ability level? Or possibly he's not going to be learning anything new at all.

I'm not in FL, so I don't know the nitty-gritty details re how this plays out in your area, but my last piece of advice is to go to the meeting, listen, ask questions, take notes. Don't sign anything that you aren't ready to sign and comfortable signing. Remember this is just a first step, not a final step.

Let us know how your meeting goes -

polarbear

Thank you so much for the feedback, everyone. I actually called the ESE/Gifted Administrator for Lee County this morning and asked her if the recommendation is final. She said the recommendation was given because the county does not offer full-time gifted until 2nd grade. Since he is still in first grade, they cannot make a full-time recommendation for this school year. She went on to say that ds score was "very high" and that during the IEP meeting, she suspects that full time gifted (along with some additional acceleration and enrichment) will be the recommendation for 2nd grade. We have school choice here, so we can choose from any of the elementary schools in our zone. Two of them have full time gifted programs.

Thank goodness - just yesterday he begged me to get him a 3rd grade math workbook. He is so irritated that he hasn't been able to move on to 3 digit addition and multiplication yet. I'm a little overwhelmed. . . lol.

It sounds like you have a great plan for next year in place.

Just an FYI, I am also in Lee County and I can tell you from experience that you will have to stay on top of things and make sure they change his placement to full time gifted. Will he be in 2nd next year? If so then you need to have them change his placement to full time gifted now so he can switch to a school with a full time program next year.

Without having that full time placement there before he switches schools you have no guarantee that they will have a full time spot open when he transfers since he would transfer as a part time placement. That would mean he would be put in a regular class with a part time pull out program and then if he qualifies for full time placement he would be moved to the full time class if they have a spot open.

Once he's listed as full time gifted he'll get preference at the full time gifted schools when you fill out the school choice form. In fact you'll only have to rank the schools that offer full time programs and be able to skip the others completely. We went through this with our daughter last year and it was a huge headache.

Also, there are additional criteria that have to be met to qualify for full time placement that most people aren't aware of. He'll have to meet at least 4 of the following items.

133 or higher on the Gifted Characteristic Checklist

90th Percentile or higher or a Level 5 (FCAT or SAT10) on reading or math achievement testing

124 or higher intelligence quotient

90% average in all content areas

Very strong portfolio score

IMO the criteria is unnecessarily restrictive and I had to really fight to get my DD full time placement (her teacher who had no training at all in gifted scored her at a 76 on the gifted characteristics checklist and her portfolio was considered strong instead of very strong) despite her being a Davidson Scholar and clearly very gifted.

Best of luck to you and your son. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions!

What I've learned about such scenarios is, you don't know until you ask. When our eldest was in 2nd grade the school said they didn't have a program for gifted in 2nd grade. We asked about 3rd grade and learned there was a gifted program. No problem in our minds, he worked with the 3rd grade gifted program part of the day and with his regular class the remainder of the time.

We've certainly learned over the years that in order to meet the needs of gifted children, one needs to be flexible and creative as well as willing to run kids around all over the region for opportunities when they present themselves.

Well, let's just say the meeting didn't go well. Now, it's on to the school disrict. The only thing he qualifies for with an IQ of 155 is part-time pull out?

Oops - I was typing on my phone and didn't get to post my whole message. . .

I met with the Gifted teacher and my son's classroom teacher today. I really like my son's teacher. I really liked the Gifted teacher. But I was there to advocate for my son. The EP was already done before I walked in the room. Snip, snap, let's get this signed and done. I had to put the brakes on and say - "I actually don't agree with the recommendation for my son." All time stood still. Basically, he has to meet four of five criteria-
IQ of 124 (which is lower than what it takes to qualify for gifted at all) - he has an IQ of 155.
Average of 90% or above in all subject areas - he has that.
97th percentile in higher on SAT10 reading - he's in the 99th percentile.
Very superior rating on portfolio - teacher rated him moderate.
133 on the checklist for gifted traits - he has 91 (needed 75 to qualify for gifted).

I had a contentious meeting with the principal after that. And now, I'll be fighting with the district, it seems. Not one of the educators at my son's school today wanted to address the fact that he is highly gifted. I asked four times if they were aware of asynchronous development, underachievement, and extreme perfectionism in highly gifted children. Crickets chirping. . . I told them I brought examples of my son's work from home so that it could be included in the portfolio. Not interested. I asked to re-visit the checklist given what we see at home. No time for that. Please just sign the form. . .

I am so angry I want to cry. I have known for two years that this school was not a good fit for my child. I'm tired of sitting by and doing nothing. This time, I'm advocating for him.

It seems to me he meets all of their requirements. What am I missing? Are you putting things in place for next year or are you trying to get the full time gifted program for this year?

What is their arguments and reasoning?

ETA: ah, I see. They've not given him the points he would need. How frustrated you must be. I hope you come up with an agreement or solution that works for your ds.

Diamondblue,

Are these the requirements for the one-day per week gifted program at his current school that you mentioned in the OP or are they the requirements for a full-time gifted program? Whichever program they are for, I'd just add that it looks like the school is looking for the typical high-achieving-in-the-classroom student rather than an outside-the-box super-high-IQ type student... so you might find once he gets into the program that it was perhaps *better* than where he's at now but still not *enough*.

I can empathize completely with the situation you are in - we've been in that very same place, and had a tough time in early elementary getting a teacher recommendation for our ds to be considered for our local gifted program. Our is 2e so that's part of the issue that was up here, but really - now that he's older and has accommodations for the 2e issues etc in place - he still doesn't really "look" like that super-eager-to-get-straight-As high-achieving student that is also friendly, cute, adorable and all that. I'm not trying to sound snarky here either - that is basically the description of what our school district's elementary school teachers were looking for in referring kids for gifted screening. We did successfully advocate for our ds to be id'd as gifted... but ultimately we realized that we were getting a label but not getting what ds needed, and we gave up on our local public schools. We didn't have an HG program here offered outside of the public schools, but the school we landed in ultimately worked much better for our ds anyway, because they are willing to differentiate based on ability, it's a small school with an interesting, challenging, creative and fun curriculum, and most importantly - the teachers genuinely *like* our ds and they care enough to be interested in his deep thoughts and out-there ideas. Having a teacher who cares has meant more to ds than any type of gifted program could ever have. Ideally the teacher and program would come together - but when things aren't working, it's time to consider what your alternatives are.

Best wishes,

polarbear

eta - fwiw, I wanted to add, I think you have a very strong case for an appeal. I'd include work you have for his portfolio, as well as a recommendation from any other adults who know your ds well (preschool teacher, piano teacher, whoever...).

Isn't it lovely how the schools essentially control the IEP system, yet pretend it's a partnership with parents? Your DS more than qualifies based on three objective measurements (IQ, achievement, reading assessment) and fails based on the two subjective measures that are entirely within the school's control (checklist, portfolio). This basically gives them veto power. It's only a partnership when you're willing to meekly go along with them.

We ran into the same issue when we tried to accelerate our DD a year. Our DD was only offered a 2hr/day gifted pullout, which was actually a bigger mess than leaving her in her regular classroom, and her RIAS score wasn't quite as impressive as your DS's. We followed the institutional bias against acceleration all the way up to the district director of curriculum, before we gave up and homeschooled.

Based on our experience, don't be surprised if every facet of the institution rallies around itself.

In your place, I might try the foot-in-the-door approach:

"We have here three objective measurements which say he's an ideal candidate for the all-day gifted program. We have two subjective measurements which say he's not. These are, in essence, opinions... is it not possible that they are wrong? Could we perhaps agree on a trial in the all-day gifted class, of say, one grading period? This could provide the objective data we need to answer that question."

Excellent point, Dude, about subjectivity and a great idea for compromise.

Isn't it lovely how the schools essentially control the IEP system, yet pretend it's a partnership with parents?


QFT, this.

I, too, go with the "wouldn't it just be easier to TRY what I want? At least I'd go away then, as opposed to my distinct lack of inclination to stop BOTHERING you all at this point in time...."

It's really sad when the process deteriorates to the point that parents really only have pester-power on our side.

I'm also a big fan of what I call "Playing Stupid."

Can you explain to me why... because it seems like one of these things isn't the same. Why are we weighting these factors like this here? Is there a reason why (subjective thing) is more important than (objective external thing)?

What about a trial in full-time gifted AND a one year skip? That sounds like a feasible option given their structure in terms of suitability.

Wow, thank you so much for putting into words my frustrations with the subjective v. objective measures on the checklist. I thank everyone here for their feedback as well. I definitely felt defeated, angry, and sad yesterday. The bottom line is that it became an argument about full-time gifted qualifications, when all I really want is for full-time gifted to be an available option. Honestly, I'm not sure that even full-time would be the right fit. Sometimes those programs can be pressure cookers, and that's not what I want for him either. For right now, my husband and I are going to re-group and try to figure out what the right fit for him would actually be and then go looking to find that (whatever THAT is - lol).

For your amusement, I will share that the principal actually said to me, "WE'RE the educational PROFESSIONALS." I have a Masters in Educational Leadership, just like she does, and I taught gifted students in a different county in Florida. I wanted to say really rude things back to her, but I thought that might undermine my message. Instead I just looked at her and said, "As am I."

I am so very very sorry to hear this. Based on our previous experience I was afraid this might happen to you guys. I think the portfolio and rating scale are both ridiculous. My DD's rating scale was done by her teacher who had no gifted training whatsoever. The first time she completed the rating scale she scored DD at a 45. Yep, she scored my Davidson Scholar at a 45 which means she didn't think my DD was gifted at all. The only reason DD is even in the gifted program is because I asked for a meeting with the principal and teacher to disuss the checklist results. The teacher had no idea we had already done IQ testing and was extremely embarassed when she found out. She re-did the rating scale about a month later and gave her a 76 (just barely qualifying) and said she thought that perhaps DD's ADHD was masking some of her gifted qualities before. Complete BS if you ask me.

I know I mentioned it before, but even with DD finally getting into a full time gifted spot it wasn't nearly enough. It's the same curriculum as the other classes, but it's a quicker pace with some enrichment and special projects thrown in. Oh, and their spelling words are a year above grade level. Essentially, it would be a decent fit for more moderately gifted kids, but completely useless for the HG/PG bunch.

At this point you may want to start looking into a grade skip with perhaps additional subject acceleration. That along with a very good and flexible teacher may work for him. Florida recently passed a bill that requires all public schools to offer subject and grade acceleration options to all students regardless of whether or not they are even in the gifted program. Here is the link to it for more info. http://info.fldoe.org/docushare/dsweb/Get/Document-6465/dps-2012-111.pdf

I also have the grade skip scale/criteria the school district uses if you would like a copy. It's a bastardized version of the IAS basically, but I had to go through a lot to get the school district to let me have it. PM me with an e-mail address if you'd like to see it.

I also feel I should mention that DD was placed in the full time gifted spot in error. She, like your son, only met 3 of the criteria. She was performing spectacularly in the full time program. High A's across the board with no effort at all and her teacher was the one to suggest additional subject acceleration before the first quarter was even over. For many reasons we ended up leaving the full time program at the end of the first quarter and moved DD back to her previous school. I found out a couple of months after she left the full time program that they had discovered the placement error shortly before we left and were getting ready to ship DD back to a regular class with once a week pull-out. That's right, they were going to put DD who clearly was doing great in a full time program and needed additional challenge even in that environment in a regular 2nd grade class.

My point is that the school district doesn't care if the full time program is a better fit or whether or not the child is doing well in it. All they care about is their placement criteria. I'm sorry, but I seriously doubt they will even consider a trial full time placement for your son.

morgans-mommy, you are absolutely right about this school district not caring about "fit". It was very apparent to me that my son's best interest was not what was being discussed yesterday, and my input was not welcome at all. It was all about what the district mandates.(At least after my meeting with the principal last year she knows that she should never say the term FCAT to me as justification for anything). After you sent me additional information about your experiences with the full-time program, I wasn't even convinced that it was the right fit for him anymore. I'm just not sure what that "right fit" is. It would have been nice if they would have been willing to at least answer my questions, but I think that was expecting too much.

Ugh. I'm sorry you had such a miserable meeting. How frustrating and ridiculous. I think it may be true that a full-time GT program in itself is not always great for HG+ kids. My kiddo thrives in one, but he also has skipped a grade. (And the teachers really do get HG kids in my son's program.) I'm so sorry you have to go through this.

I would recommend pursuing the appeal, just to give you some options. You have an excellent argument that your son belongs in FT GT. Also, if you have any possibility of homeschooling, I recommend that you at least consider it. It makes advocacy a lot easier if you have a decent backup option. Much less stressful.

That's actually what I was angling for with my DD's school, though I was willing to go in stages with a "skip now, g/t later" sort of idea. It apparently never occurred to them that the real problem is that she's a fast learner, and skipping her a year couldn't possibly change that.

So is having a gifted programme which isn't always successful and seems aimed at the wrong people still better than the nothing my son's school has? My best case scenario is a private government approved one day a week programme which would cost more money than I know how to find at present.

I'm starting to feel like not having anything may at least prevent a lot of stress.