I have a 13-year-old highly gifted and very verbal DS that seems to rub some adults the wrong way. This has been so since he was at least 2 years old. Like Dennis the Menace with a high IQ! Yes, he does tell most people what he is thinking, but always in a respectful way. And yes, he does talk A LOT to the point where I know adults wished he would stop talking. He loves to talk about new science breakthroughs and computers and powerful cars. We've had friends tell us that when they have conversations with our DS, they forget he is a kid and sometimes bring up adult topics while talking to him.

He always seems to have a couple of teachers each year that our DS suspects do not like him. Just tonight he told me he was talking to himself while writing an essay in English and his teacher walked by and told him, "you can stop writing your essay now because you have a zero on it already for talking." Later in class, my DS raised his hand to answer a question and his teacher told him, "put your hand down, Mr. Zero!"

He has experienced other adults and teachers who I know believe he is cocky and a know-it-all. It seems these adults are insulted because my DS talks to them as an equal, and they feel he is only a child and he should be treating them as his elder. However, when it comes to their judgement of him or their behavior towards him, they hold him accountable as if he were an adult.

Any ideas?

I volunteer in the school a lot and over the years there has been one boy in my DD8 class whose attitude and demeanor have always rubbed me the wrong way. This year I started considering the possibility that he might be highly gifted and after doing so much gifted reading on my own I now realize that there can be certain uncontrollable behavior and personality traits that accompany being gifted.

Honestly, it made me more tolerant of his condescending tone and rude behavior. I don't let it slide anymore then I would have before hand, but knowing that he may not have complete control over it makes me have more patience towards it.

FWIW, I don't hold him accountable to any higher standard of behavior then I hold any other 3rd grader to and I feel that being respectful (even when you disagree) is an extremely important human trait to possess regardless of intellectual capability. Now when I feel like he is being rude or disrespectful I take more time to explain to him why his tone or his actions are not acceptable to me (rather then assuming he understood by my dissatisfaction with him).

I think the teacher who made the zero comment to your son was totally out of line and I would probably be having a conference over that. No child deserves to be ridiculed by the teacher in front of their peers. That seems bizarre and cruel to me.

I would email the "Mr. Zero" teacher with your understanding of the situation and ask him his take on the situation and ask what makes him think that's an acceptable way to interact with students. I would also cc the principal. That behavior is way out of line.

But I think you should also consider that your son might be having trouble with social cues and behaviors. It sounds like there have been plenty of instances you're aware of where you think he's rubbing people the wrong way, talking too much, and leaving people with the impression he's a know-it-all. Even if that's not his intent, it seems like he needs help with his behavior so people don't get that impression (assuming you don't want that).

Totally agree with this. The problem may not be giftedness alone, though it's a factor.

DeeDee

I wouldn't get too worried that something is wrong, though, if you have no other reason for concern (do you?) My father can be like this, unfortunately, and I suspect he always has been. There is nothing else wrong with him, but he is extremely smart (probably PG) and by nature impatient.

However, I think you could work on this behavior with your son. I have a child like this and we're always trying to work on it. Does he correct people a lot? That really aggravates many people, even if he's right. We are always trying to make DD think about whether she NEEDS to correct people (ie, will someone be physically or emotionally hurt if a correction is not made?)

The teacher sounds unprofessional to me, since she is not giving grades based on the quality of the work. In an ideal world I would complain to the principal, but in the real world with tenured teachers who can retaliate, it's a tougher call.

Not withstanding the teacher issue I believe it is important to learn how to best fit in socity. I am not saying your son does not, but from my personal experance (Still a bit of a know it all) it can be better to listen more. I have little patiance at times and find I need to interject my point of view. I also believe if I find it interesting then I need to share it. I am 50 now and getting better. My DS10 has some of the same issues, however he mostly keeps it in control at school. Since K we told him not to answer every question, do not correct the teacher unless asked, and do not help anyone unless asked. This seems to work. At home he is now starting to correct my wife and I, (Maybe a learned behavior from us). He also talks non stop at home to the point of rambling. We do try to help him learn when the correct time for talking is and is not. We keep tyring to give him the tools he will need to fit in with others. Lucky for me my DW has these skills, learning active listing skills goes a long way for better social inetraction. As my DW remindes me, people like to talk about themselves, learn to ask them questions and you will leran more then from you telling them what you know or think.

Hmmm, it is important to learn when not to talk. And during an English essay (test?), it would be especially important to be quiet - as talking (even to himself) may well distract the other students around him (and lower their score!). 13 seems old enough to have learned this lesson. To receive a zero on the essay for talking seems excessive - unless the teacher had warned him about not talking during essays/tests in the past. The teacher's comment afterwards "Mr Zero" - it depends a lot on tone - it could be a friendly, though perhaps inappropriate, joke or an insult. Are you confident your son tells the whole story (in particular on whether this teacher has warned him about talking in class before)?

I understand, as sometimes, especially when I'm stressed, my son rubs me the wrong way. He can also talk non-stop, correct me, get frustrated if I don't know something fast enough.. Etc. He just turned five last week so there is more latitude for it, but I really have to work on him not bossing others and knowing when to stop talking. It's hard, because it is just his nature, but I think a more important skill than all the academic schooling. I think it is kind of sad that you have to say, hey don't answer a question if you know it so others don't view you as a know it all...but, learning to hide you smarts to fit in better is just one more kind of emotional IQ that in some instances is important, sadly enough.

This is what I wondered as well.

Being parent to another 13yo, I mean-- I am amazed sometimes at the relevant information that she can overlook/omit in relating interpersonal interactions. Some of this is adolescent thinking, I'm afraid.

Agreed. I think some of it is also HG+ thinking.

Being intelligent means that I can remember a lot of stuff from my childhood and analyze it as an adult. Over the years, I've thought about why I might have rubbed kids or teachers the wrong way as a kid.

When I was very young (K-3rd grade or so), a lot of the other kids would accuse me of "thinking I was so big." This expression means that I thought I was looking down on everyone else or thought I was better than them. I had no idea why anyone would accuse me of that, because it wasn't true.

Many years later, I realized that it was my vocabulary, probably combined with school being so easy for me. I used words like "ambidextrous" casually when I was six. What others saw as "big words" were just part of my everyday speech. I had no clue then that the other kids didn't understand those words, or that they probably didn't understand me a lot of the time. Looking back on it, they may have thought that I was trying to show off or make them feel inadequate (which I probably did, without knowing it).

Additionally, HG+ people also don't really think like most others, and I suspect that my thought patterns and the associations I made when speaking didn't always resonate with other kids and some teachers. It is possible that stressed out teenagers or non-gifted teachers may react viscerally to a 15-year-old who read Dante's Inferno over the summer because she picked up a way cool edition with engravings by Gustave Dore' for 50 cents at the local book fair in July. It wasn't that I went around talking about this. It was that I mentioned it in class (something about harpies in the woods behind the school, IIRC).

Since then, I've had to learn to temper what I say and when I say it (unless I'm with another giftie). I don't want to make others feel inadequate or whatever.

My 2E second grader told me that she has already learned to "dumb it down" in school. "Mom it's just not a good idea to use words or talk about things that the other kids don't understand." I told her she doesn't need to do that - kids can ask questions if they don't understand what she's saying. She looked at me like my little choo choo had gone chugging around the bend...

Sadly I think she may have decided on a good course of action...

Well, but I think she has a point.

If the goal is to learn to communicate effectively with peers, then 'dumbing down' is definitely part and parcel of that.

I wouldn't dream of calling it "demeaning" or being "untrue to myself" if I used vastly simplified language and concepts to explain, say, the relationship between pressure and temperature in gases-- to a group of eight year olds.

KWIM? They are at a different place than I am with that material, on average, and therefore it's simply good communication skills for me to adjust to meet them rather than the other way around (which is obviously impossible).


I'll also echo Val's painful experiences. I can recall feeling bereft when my cousins (both one bright, the other MG) refused to play with me anymore because I was using "too many fancy words" and it was "mean/snooty" of me. It was a hard lesson to learn.

I mention that because I was kind of a verbal steamroller as a kid, too. I was sort of oblivious to how it effected others until I was in my teens.

I totally agree with this! When I was in high school, I THOUGHT that I was being sensitive to the other kids, not sharing my SAT scores or bragging, but now I realize that just the way I talked was different.

Also, I THOUGHT that the other kids in my honors and gifted classes were similar to myself. I THOUGHT they just 'got it', but now talking to a girl who was in the gifted program and all the honors and AP classes with me, and who was so mean to me that we had a major falling out until just a few years ago, I've realized that I was very wrong. They might have been getting good grades, but they were working hard for it. When they said that they were worried about the test results, they weren't making it up.

As to the original question though - it sounds like it could be more than just his giftedness, but it's entirely possible that the teachers had it in for him from the start. I was once put in a lower math and reading group because the principal didn't like how I asked if they had a gifted program at the new student orientation. Maybe I came off as stuck up. She later said I had to be put in my place, but I was 8, and that was the only thing I said to her as far as I remember. I also had a guidance counselor who I hardly ever interacted with, who told me that just because I had an IQ of 150 doesn't mean I can just do anything, and refused to put me in AP computer science because 'girls aren't good with computers'. That's how I learned my IQ - from his unprofessional comment. He made me take basic computer science first, even though it wasn't a required prerequisite. I showed him - I went on to get a 5 on the AP test and go to Carnegie Mellon for computer science. I'm a software engineer now.

Sorry for the tangent, I'm just saying this because there ARE mean, petty, racist, sexist, etc people who are teachers and administrators.

Yes, I remember teachers like that.

There was the 7th math teacher who didn't want to let me take algebra in 8th grade because he was angry with me (never mind why, but the principal had reamed him over it). The English teacher went over his head and made sure I was placed in algebra.

There was the 3rd grade teacher who punished me because other kids at a large open table were copying off my spelling paper. She didn't punish them. Just me. Well...maybe she was right and I should have covered myself and my work with a sheet to stop them.

There was the guidance counselor who suggested I take Home Ec. instead of Physics.

And nauseatingly etc.

I totally agree with this. It's not dumbing down, it's consideration for your audience. This involves perspective-taking, understanding what information and attitude your interlocutors are likely to have, which is a skill that some people have innately, but some people have to work very hard to develop.

We work hard with DS on how he comes across to others. My feeling is that this is not breaking his spirit, but rather increasing his ability to contribute meaningfully to society.

DeeDee

High school? I still get weird reactions to my conversational style as an adult, from time to time. I had a neighbor recently who felt the need to pull my DW aside and ask, "What's his deal?" DW had to explain that I'm not putting on any airs... that's just the way I talk.

In school, I did find it useful to sprinkle in some common slang (check the nickname) and the occasional f-bomb, just to make myself appear more relatable/accessible, but beyond that, I've always preferred to just communicate in a way that feels natural to me, and people can either appreciate that, or not, their choice.

Wow! Thanks for all of your stories! Really, the different points of view do help!
As an update on the Mr. Zero teacher:

I asked my DS today what kind of tone the teacher had used; did he think she was just teasing or joking. He said she had definitely used a harsh tone. Unfortunately, a mom whose daughter is in my DS's class emailed me tonight telling me some things her daughter told her about the teacher. Her daughter told her that the Mr. Zero teacher did not like my DS and most everyone knew it because the teacher was always saying something mean to my son. I know she dislikes him because he corrected her once. Left two messages for the principal to call me... nothing yet.

Dumbing down? I've mentioned similar to my son, but his concern to me was something I could not answer: "How do I know how simplified I need to make the conversation? I can't judge their intelligence. What if I make it so simple that I am insulting them for thinking they were that dumb?"
I have to agree with him. How do you know, at age 13, who you can speak to using your natural intelligence, and who do you speak to in "lay" terms? I am all about being kind and considerate to others; on the other hand, what message am I sending to my child by telling him your intelligence may insult others, so tone it down? When a beautiful, slender, young mom stands next to me (older and frumpy) at a PTA meeting, would it rub me the wrong way? Would I feel insulted? Should she tone down her beauty so she doesn't make me feel bad? LOL

I wanted to add that regardless of any other details of the story, calling your son 'Mr. Zero' in front of the class was unprofessional, rude and, in my opinion, bordering on verbal abuse.

Giving him a zero for talking while writing his essay could have a valid explanation. If he had been warned before and the whole class was told to do it quietly, maybe it was warranted, but that 'Mr.Zero' comment was just WRONG.

We aren't talking about a need to turn off intelligence, though, but about the need to choose language (and content) appropriately to the person you're speaking to. Sure, this is not always easy, but that doesn't mean you get to not do it! This - pragmatic language - is something my DS had trouble with in the past; it was on his IEP and at school they helped him with it explicitly. He's much better at it now, but it does take work. IMHO if you're encouraging a 13yo in a belief that this is an unreasonable expectation and he doesn't have to bother, you're not helping. If the person you're talking to doesn't understand, it's not communication. If you know that, or would know it if you paid attention, and keep talking anyway, that's rude, and people will react negatively.

Besides, it's a skill crucial to many careers. I'm an academic, for example: I wouldn't get far if I talked in the same terms to students at all stages, colleagues from all areas and members of the public! One concrete tip: when you aren't sure what level to pitch something at (I meet someone at a party and they say "what do you do?" - do they want the abstract of my last paper, or the one sentence summary of what my department does?) it's OK to ask - e.g. you say "I'm interested in some questions relating to X; have you come across X?" and depending on the answer you explain either what X is or what the questions are.

ColinsMum, you are right on so many points, and yes, we are expecting and teaching our son to be considerate, polite and to know when to stop talking. We are in no way encouraging him to say whatever he feels on a level he feels comfortable with - not at all. But every situation can be different. If your child's teacher is marking your child's test question wrong, but your child has it right, would you encourage your child to respectfully ask the teacher about it? I would. The teacher may or may not get defensive by a student bringing up a mistake they made. Most teachers wouldn't. Some do. The Mr. Zero teacher did

Of course, as parents, it is our job to raise considerate, polite and caring children. We need to teach them how to get along in society in order for them to be successful. I'm just frustrated with the extra burden that is on our gifted kids to continually try to fit in - into classrooms where instruction is moving too slow for them, in conversations with adults where they need to be careful to know their place as a child and not another adult, among peers where our gifted kids have trouble relating and are reminded to dumb it down a bit and in a world that does not seem to value them as much as we should.

The family philosophy at my house is the golden rule - just be nice! My personal version of that is to go out of my way to make everyone feel special. My gifted DS's version is that he IS being nice when he politely corrects someone. We tell him most people don't like to be corrected. His reasoning is, "Mom, is it nice to knowingly let these people go through their life embarrassing themselves because they are wrong?" He truly believes in his heart he is helping them...

Nobody said raising children was easy *sigh*

My son has several of the characteristics of Aspergers, and his behavioral quirks, literalism, and choice of words have been a problem for him at school. Here is what is helping this year:

1. Preparing the teachers at the beginning of the year with a "welcome to my kid letter" that describes some of his strengths and challenges that will likely come into play in the classroom along with what interventions work best and what doesn't work

2. Professional help - seeking the help of a psychiatrist or psychologist with experience in autism and Giftedness; if the professional is used to 2E, even better. Learning the why of things he does has been such a help to me and has helped me learn how to teach him appropriate behavior and techniques for coping in situations that stress him

3. Getting it into his IEP. If you have an IEP, having his behaviors defined as part of it can be a huge help. It allows the school to require teachers to accommodate your child to a certain extent while also dealing in a more appropriate way when his behavior is a problem.

4. Educating your child. It has been a huge help this year to talk about how my son views the world and social situations and how others perceive his behaviors. "You thought you were just providing clear details, but what they heard was you insulting them," etc. It has been eye-opeing for him and has changed the choices he has made in some situations in order to prevent a repeat of what didn't work. Even if he doesn't understand why someone else would consider what he said inappropriate, he is able to act in the information that they do think that.

5. Acceptance. I have come to a place of accepting that my job is not to fix my son but to help him gain tools to navigate as best he can through life to live a full, rich, rewarding life. There is nothing "wrong" with him, and his particular set of gifts and personality traits will mean he will have some advantages in life and some challenges, it is my job to help him learn skills and methods of coping with those challenges. And it is also my job while he is still a minor as home to advocate for him when others interpret his behaviors as something they're not.

In your particular situation, I would ask for a visit with the teacher. I would acknowledge his frustrations in dealing with your child and let him know that you know it isn't always easy to have him in a classroom. I would let the teacher know that you're willing to work with the teacher on a plan to help your son learn to modify behaviors that are disruptive and find acceptable accommodations when needed, such as taking his tests in the office if he cannot control noises when he is stressed. And then I would tell the teacher that calling your son names in front of the rest of the class will not help and that it isn't something you're willing to support or tolerate because of the damage it does through humiliation and fostering an environment of approved disrespect from his peers. It isn't ok for a teacher to resort to name-calling.

Hey Celit,
I think others have made some really good points--I just wanted to let you know I PM'd you about one of your earlier comments. Good luck!

ABQMom, thanks so much for your thoughts. You are right about not needing to fix our children but to equip them with tools. Thanks for that reminder!
I think I am just at a weak moment and I'm letting my emotions get the best of me!

Advocating for my gifted 13-year-old son seems to have become a full-time job. Our school system does not have any gifted services except for 3rd, 4th and 5th grade and it is an enrichment one morning a week. My son is not allowed an IEP; there are GEP's for the gifted during the 3 years they are in the program. Regular classroom instruction is all that is available to us right now. No modifications.

That's too bad. I wonder whether it's worth seeking an evaluation for ASDs, assuming he hasn't had one? Even if he doesn't have a diagnosable ASd, it might help you to find tool shops for him - IRL friends whose I-think-HG+ son has Asperger's say he has benefited hugely from social skills group training, which I didn't know even existed, for example. And, played right, the knowledge that you were seeking an assessment might help the school see that you're taking your side seriously, and help them do the same.

ColinsMum, we have had full testing and no LD's or anything else was indicated. I really appreciate your help and feedback!

I totally agree with all of this.

Who diagnosed the "visual-spatial learning style"? I don't really believe in learning styles of this kind-- they have been debunked by scientists-- and I find that often when people say it's an extreme VS learning style it is instead an ASD or other neurological difference.

The inability to grasp why he can't just tell the truth, the feeling that it would be an injustice not to do so, is a classic gifted-with-ASD behavior.

Cognitive behavior therapy and/or Michelle Garcia Winner's "Social thinking" curriculum would probably be helpful for him in any case.

DeeDee

I agree with this too. The teacher is making it worse.

DeeDee

Visual-Spatial learning style in regards to the work that Linda Silverman has done whilst working with thousands of gifted and highly gifted over the past thirty some years has not been debunked. What has been found is that no studies of neuro-typical children being given instruction oriented towards visual or auditory "styles" which have been properly designed have shown positive learning effects.

I think Dr. Silverman's categorization is fixated on an unfortunate term (Visual-Spatial) that has lumped her work in with the mainstream attempts to sell expensive alternate learning materials into classrooms. What instead she has identified is an underlying brain organization that has been validated through FMRI showing a tendency of gifted kids to cluster towards one of two ends of a spectrum in terms of size and spacing of minicolumns.

If you follow the neuroscience research that the Eides have identified, this range tends to have ASD on end and Dyslexia on the other end. On the ASD side is a tendency towards focus, serial reasoning, literal thinking which can be mischaracterized as an "auditory learning style" on the Dyslexia side is a tendency towards abstract, wide range system thinking mischaracterized as the "visual-spatial style."

My career (IT) is one of those in which it is necessary to practice pragmatic language, and I'm one of the ones frequently called upon to translate complicated technical information into a jargon-free format that's easily digestible by the average user. It's something I'm fairly good at.

What I'm referring to is separate from this. It's not the habit of talking over others' heads, it's the habit of conversing in modes and usages that are not commonly heard in everyday conversation. For most people, spoken language is much, much simpler than the kind of written language we encounter on a daily basis. It's language we all understand, and we also commonly hear, just not face to face. Well, for me, there's very little difference in how I write and how I speak.

So yeah, when I was in junior high, kids would tell me I had a wonderful future as a newscaster, because the language I used sounded like what they usually heard on the evening news. My drama teacher even cast me as one in 8th grade.

So that's the choice... speak the way that comes naturally to me, or dumb it down into everyday language. Unless I'm speaking with someone who wouldn't understand for some reason (young, non-native English speaker, mental handicap, etc.), I just don't feel like it's worth the effort. I'd rather just be me.

And that's the quandary faced by a lot of gifted kids. Some choose to dumb down their language to fit in better and draw less attention to themselves... the chameleon effect.

I have observed that my DD participates appropriately in social white lies ("I love my present," "I like your drawing,"--when I know these things are not strictly true), but still has a compulsion to fix or speak up insistently about factual inaccuracies (eg, mispronunciations by her brother, worksheets containing spelling errors, someone getting a math fact wrong). I have wondered if some of this is anxiety-based, or possibly a personality/perfectionist thing. If SHE is wrong about something like that, she always wants to be corrected. A misspelled word in a writing exercise is absolutely not acceptable to her.

And to complicate matters further, over-emphasizing comformity at that age may degrade vocabulary and complex language.

I went through a phase at around 13 where I was constantly matching what I intended to communicate to what was understood. Then I would play through scenes in my head at the end of the day to figure out if intent and outcome were matching. Then brainstorm different ways, methods to express things and try that next time.

One nice thing with that approach is it accidentally makes you question and analyze your intentions. When you realize you said something a certain way because you did intend the teacher to look dumb and you to look cool, then you have to own up at least to yourself.

Ding-ding-ding! YES.

I've often had the experience of being designated a "spokesperson" for various technical/elite/professional groups because of this ability to translate into everyday language.

I find that I have also (often) been identified as having an unmistakable "voice" as a writer-- which is completely reflective of the way in which I speak.

The two things aren't separated at all in my head, I guess-- I speak and writer as part of the same process. Most people don't, evidently. I can't understand how it isn't the same process. But apparently it isn't.


Anyway. Just noting that this may be another area of non-NT for some gifties, and that it may be one of those quirky areas of innate difference that leads to a certain automaticity/fluidity which is awkward and learned for pretty much everyone else on earth. It's definitely not native for either my DD or my DH, though my DD has the fluid determination of "what level do I aim this at" with her SPOKEN communication, and DH does not. Neither of them seems to view "communication" as a general activity which includes multiple modalities, though.

I don't like the term "dumb it down." To me, it's kind of arrogant and contains an implicit value judgment that the listener is dumb.

I know lots of people who don't understand my field. When I talk about what I'm working on to them, I don't assume that I'm dumbing stuff down or that they're dumb. I assume that I'm explaining an idea to someone who doesn't possess my level of background information and who may not be interested in hearing all the details. They do the same for me. The fact that someone explains Scala in basic terms to me doesn't make me dumb.


Ahh. But your DS is wrong and you need to correct him. And he isn't being polite. His tone may be polite, but his action isn't.

Besides, those other people may also truly believe in their hearts that they're right about the perceived mistake. A lot of stuff in life is subjective and a right answer doesn't exist, so it's not always accurate to claim that YOU ARE WRONG ABOUT THE RELATIVE MERITS OF A VS. B, no matter how strongly you believe it.

Plus, even when there is a right answer ("13 x 13 = 169, not 269"), why would it be reasonable to assume that a person will go through his whole life telling people that 13*13 is 269? He probably has other stuff to do.

Plus, why is it your son's job to correct others? I don't correct others who aren't my kids unless a) they ask or b) the results of the mistake would be harmful, as in, "Don't climb onto that branch; it's cracked and you'll fall."

Here's an example of how correcting the minor wrong can create a larger problem. After he gets a driver's license, should your son correct other drivers who are speeding by getting in front of them and setting cruise control at the speed limit? Should he wave signs at people going 70 in a 65 zone, saying SLOW DOWN? Of course not. He could cause an accident. Besides, policing other drivers is the Highway Patrol's job, and when other people try to force their version of "right" on others, they can create more problems, like traffic jams, crashes due to distraction, or road rage. Plus, there are signs that say "Slower traffic move right." So it seems that there are two right answers on the highway: don't speed, but let other people speed.

I would say this idea carries over into other areas: try not to make mistakes, but let other people make their own errors (outside extreme circumstances, as in, "Dear, you're about to run a red light" or "Doctor, you're supposed to amputate the OTHER leg.").

Is it possible that your son is focusing on the trees and not realizing that there's a forest there?

This ability to speak differently to different groups is referred to as "codeswitching." I don't think it's exclusive to the gifted, though that probably helps you to be better at it. Anyone who has grown up speaking nonstandard English but who speaks standard English in the work world does it all the time.

Thank you, ultramarina-- I didn't know that it had such a concise name!

Great observations, Val. I will probably make use of some of those things with DH. He (even at 50) still has some trouble understanding why that kind of conduct is abrasive to others.

I agree with Val on "dumbing down"-- I would choose to avoid that way of thinking about what's going on. Ultra's "codeswitching" is a more apt and more generous description.

Seen on Facebook, and adopted into my parenting wholesale:

"Before you speak, THINK:
is it True?
is it Helpful?
is it Inspiring?
is it Necessary?
is it Kind?"

Useful metric for when to speak up...

DeeDee

I had only ever seen codeswitching mentioned around the issues of bi/multilingual speakers, but its application to dialects, field-specific terminology, and different modalities of a single language makes total sense.

And this impulse to correct other people's mistakes doesn't get you better results when you grow up, BTW. My mother, who probably shares her grandson's diagnosis on the spectrum, derailed her career by going around telling her peers how to run their own departments more efficiently. She was probably right on the details. And she meant well. But it took years of hard work with guidance from somebody with a much better EQ and political sense than hers to get things back on track. To this day she still doesn't quite understand what all the fuss was about, too .

Said as one of the older, frumpy moms at those meetings... yes!

Does that potential top model mom come to PTA meetings wearing runway fashions? With her hair and face camera-ready? And if she did, what would your reaction be compared to the same person wearing a trendy pair of jeans and "street" make-up?

Does having that PTA meeting at the most expensive private school in Berverly Hills vs. a public school in a low income area change the answer?

I once read an article by a mother who went the length of volunteering at her kids school wearing the local mom uniform (jeans) and changed in her car before moving on to meetings in her high powered executive job (and the confusion when she didn't have time to change one day -- initially nobody at school recognized her). I thought it was a bit extreme, but then jeans and t-shirts are the uniforms of my profession (and I am definitely not the most fashionable dresser at school).

Analyzing those different environment, being *able* to adapt to them, being aware of the costs and benefits of not doing so, and prepared to deal with the consequences is an important lesson to learn.

And, quite honestly, one I haven't quite mastered. But I have real life experience of the drawbacks of not being *able* to play the game. Or even understand there is a game to play.

" After he gets a driver's license, should your son correct other drivers who are speeding by getting in front of them and setting cruise control at the speed limit? "

Yes.

In fact, it's best to get a friend to drive along with you so that your friend can be in the other land controlling traffic at the speed limit.

Remember, as Leo XIII said, "error has no rights".

Are we not our brother's keeper?

Are we not all responsible for the ideal functioning of the world?

Do we not have to hold our fellow man to account?

In order to win the game, you have to break the rules?

celit, I don't know your ds or enough background on the situation to really have any advice on what's happened with his teacher. I was curious about this note about counseling though - my 2e kids are both visual-spatial - my EG ds is *extremely* visual spatial in his thinking style. And I do understand that school academics are usually put together with a different type of learner in mind... but I'm curious why you think this has led to underachievement and why he's in counseling because of it? It's never been an issue with achieving in school for my kids (as far as I can tell)... my kids *are* 2e and they LD challenges which the Eides write about occurring in people who are also often visual-spatial, but the challenges for them in school aren't that they are visual-spatial, they are related to their LDs. So just curiousity - feel free to ignore my question if you want to!

Best wishes,

polarbear

We are having the conversations about "the teacher is always right". Our daughter is 15 and a sophomore. She really hates teachers with pet peeves (silly) and we are trying to get her ready for college.

This does not mean that she has to put up with abuse, but she has to follow the rules. We have been arguing about this, but my husband and I are standing our ground.

These days, you just go to the professor and explain to him or her that your special snowflake deserves an A and that professor is being abusive and hurting her feelings by making her follow the rules.

Yes, that is particularly effective in laboratory courses where safety/disposal protocols are at issue.

As an addendum, both my DD and I are obviously V-S learners, but neither of us ever had any difficulty with underachieving in school. Quite the opposite.

Special Snowflakes don't need to take laboratory courses.

I have no idea what kind of learner I am.

It's not something I ever had to think about.

See, I would say that the mom in that story has quite a problem, because she's going to extraordinary lengths to protect other people's feelings, at her own expense.

She's trying to control what is ultimately beyond our control, which is other people's feelings. You never know what's going to upset someone. But I suspect people are more likely to be upset if they see her changing in the car than if she showed up at a PTA meeting looking like the professional she is.

It's really not a game that's very healthy to play, IMO. The best way to win is not to play.

I like your above post Dude. Though the woman changing in the car describes me, I've realized over time that it's not the extreme that I have to or possibly should be going to - and I'm always working on that. Not great for parenting EG/HG and likely 2E girl either, probably why I annoy her so much of the time (she gets mad when I'm not authentic).

I do believe in adjusting somewhat though "when in Rome" etc. to blend or be understood. But also the other people have to meet people not like themselves part way. That's how it should work,anyway.

I see this point of view, but I also see the other side of it. If the PTA member was going to work in expensive designer clothes and wearing different expensive jewelry every day, I can see changing. Maybe not in the car, though. Maybe at work or at home.

I once went to a fast-food restaurant with someone wearing a very expensive fur coat and a lot of really nice jewelry. We had come from work, and this was how people dressed there. No one said anything, but we both felt out of place. I can see that people who are struggling to make ends meet would react negatively to seeing someone dressed like that at every PTA meeting. Not to mention that by advertising your wealth, you set yourself up to be asked for donations again and again.

I also understand that you can't predict how other every other person will react to your clothes or speech habits. But that doesn't mean you should use that fact as a reason to do anything you like and ignore how most other people might reasonably react.

everything in moderation...and when you're an adult it's your choice.

a kid of 13 has plenty of time to learn if he has awareness and parents to guide him correctly he can make informed decisons for himself as he moves forward.

an adult teacher calling a kid "Mr. Zero" even in jest...just inappropriate

Well, as long as that person demonstrated the appropriate traits of noblesse oblige, then there should be no harassment.

As we all know, someone with wealth needs to step up to the plate and provide social and financial leadership to those who have less, provided, of course that those who have less did not waste their family wealth on booze, cards, and women of loose morals.

With wealth comes responsibility, so I think a person's actual station in life should be shown to others so that people can learn from their leadership and success.

After all, how can we learn to become better people if we don't know who our betters are?

So, it's okay to waste your inheritance on men of loose morals?

This is an important question.

I'm heterosexual, so I'm not likely to be wasting my inheritance on men of loose morals if I were disposed to so waste my inheritance.

Fortunately, my father saw fit to waste my mother's inheritance on his second wife, which actually ended up being pretty funny more than anything else.

So, I didn't receive an inheritance when my mother passed that would have enabled me to waste my inheritance on wine, women, and song.

(Girls get inheritances too)

(Girls also waste their inheritances on wine, women and song.)

I notice that he didn't answer your Very Important Question, either.
Given my location, I could probably waste it on Morels. It may be problematic finding loose ones associated exclusively with men, however. Locally, cultivated seems to be the norm. There is a nice lesbian couple that has a mushroom farm, though... perhaps they would be WOMEN of loose morels?

I would probably just skip right to wasting my inheritance on alpacas and fiber festivals, though I hear that there are mighty fine pinots to be had around here, too.

Ahh. I like that. Wasting your inheritance in a local, sustainable, organic way. That's good for the environment and sets a good example for others.

Gifted ed. tie-in ----> You could probably do a class on that: Sociology of inheritances: wasting your ancestors' money while saving the planet. Would be great for gifted children of the uber-wealthy. <-----

I'm a wastrel with a social conscience, what can I say?

polarbear, it is difficult to explain a complex child or situation in a short paragraph.

I did have a conference with all of his teachers and the school counselor when these issues arose, but I got the feeling that, as his mom, my information about my DS was not to be believed. I was right because the school did absolutely nothing. I knew then that we had to get a counselor who specializes in gifted issues to back us up and be our advocate. She found out about the visual-spatial style as a possible cause for his failing grades. The visual spatial style and the failing grades are compounded by his emotional issues brought on by a cancer scare, death of his dog and the death of his grandfather in the span of 1 month. We are tackling the VS learning style first in order to give him skills to overcome the failing grades.

Celit, have you tried cognitive-behavior therapy? Unlike regular talk therapy, it's effective for PTSD and for the kinds of behavior change you're looking for.

DeeDee

DeeDee, we haven't, as of yet. I trust our counselor; she is outstanding. I will mention it to her. Thank you!

I have to say, despite being anxious about my DS, I have so enjoyed this thread and it intrigues me the path the topics have flowed! talking too much->visual spatial->bras->playing the game->morals->morels->organics

I've received an enormous amount of great advice and ideas for my DS, but I have to say the enlivening conversation has had a more positive effect on my concerns for my DS than anything else!

You all are awesome!

That's because this chat board has some very talented Glass Bead Game players.

Ahhhh... polysemy, I hardly knew ye...



On another note, I have explained this phenomenon to my family as "there are some problems either so intractable or so complex that 'if I didn't laugh I would cry' is the only real solution using deductive reasoning."

In other words, I nominate Jon for "most pithy post of the day." Again.

"I've received an enormous amount of great advice and ideas for my DS, but I have to say the enlivening conversation has had a more positive effect on my concerns for my DS than anything else!"

@celit - I know my own DD (though I wish she were more disconnected sometimes) is very sensitive to how humorous - or anxious- I'm feeling and I'm very aware of it but it's a struggle to stay optomistic someimes, sometimes I feel like I would need to be a bit hysterically/non-authentically "up".

So what I'm trying to say is that I'm glad the responses have made you feel better or perhaps given you some sort of perspectice (I think that's why I keep coming back) and I bet your DS will feel the lift.

My DD is super VS and it's a very cool trait, I bet your DS is a neat kid. BYW I think a mom discussing bra issues with her son will make for a very sympathetic hubby for some girl out there someday : - ) LOL!