We are thinking of moving from New York City, currently considering California or the Pacific Northwest, but can only consider towns with appropriate public schools for our gifted 11- and 4-year-old sons. We have some amazing gifted schools here in NYC and are hoping to find something similar in a new town. Any thoughts?

Tracy, I'm not very familiar with the current situation in Washington state, but I can shed some light on general trends and state policy in all three Pacific coast states.

Washington-- seems to have pretty good state policies in place; I've known two children who were granted early K entry and one of those children was grade-skipped an additional year without any issues. Both of those children live in the Seattle metro area, however, where there are large magnet schools.

Oregon-- outside of the Portland Metro area, you're looking at private options. The state mandates "identification" all right. But that doesn't mean that it funds it-- or that whatever a district decides to call "GT" actually follows any kind of best-practices even for MG children. Mostly it's fluff and a parent-driven festival of cliques that serve to exclude those beyond the velvet rope. In other words, in a small town, most PG children are going to be homeschooled. Period. We're persona non grata with the "gifted" crowd in our own town. More on that momentarily.

California-- if anything, the budgetary problems in OR (not insubstantial, btw) are far, far worse in CA. The GT programming in many districts has been on the chopping block as a result. Grade skipping I've heard about, but it isn't always done ungrudgingly, nor in good faith, quite frankly. If you're in one of the HUGE population centers (LA basin, SF bay) there are very good magnet schools, and if you're outside of them, there... aren't.

I'm not sure that there is a culture of support for GT in public education out here, much as it pains me to say that. There's definitely a hefty streak of anti-elitism in the educational powers-that-be in the Northwest. Even many program directors in GT camps and independent programming truly "don't believe in" differences based in LOG... or that PG kids are very different from those who are borderline 'gifted'/bright.

There are islands of good GT accommodation. But in between them is basically a wasteland-- only the administrators and parents THINK that there is 'real GT' in those places. Because, see, that's what the label says...

My perspective here is that I have a 13yo PG dd and we live in a smallish city with a major university and a large high-tech employer. Fully 56% of our county possesses a bachelor's degree or more... and yet the GT programming here is still absolutely awful from our perspective. OTHER parents consider it 'good' and quite rigorous in terms of cutoffs. We don't. granted that the district probably skews high in terms of ability, but, um... 30% of our local school is identified as "GT?" HUH?? Uhhhh... NO. No wonder they never even bothered testing my kid before identifying her. They don't break things out any further than that, and there isn't any real programming (oh, no, of course not... "all coursework is differentiated by teachers"), so there isn't much point. The thing is, MOST parents in our town want the label in order to gain social standing. They very definitely don't want any whiff that their own (bright) children aren't the real thing... and unfortunately, DD is proof positive that PG kids exist. In some ways, even school administrators don't like her-- because of what she represents, if that makes sense. She makes them face the fact that they are identifying kids that don't HAVE any particular special educational needs, caving in to parent pressure, and at the same time, ignoring the real thing (like my DD), and even watering down what little borderline appropriate instruction they offer so as to make it 'easy enough' on kids that are bright but should probably never have been placed in GT classes. If I sound a little bitter, it's because I am. We have "excellent" neighborhood schools. My 12 yo was advised last fall to strongly consider going "straight to the community college or local uni" since our local high school (reputedly one of the fifteen best in the state, and a regular source of national merit scholars) had "almost nothing to offer her that she hasn't yet taken." Seriously??

If we wanted to, we could probably drive ~80 mi each way to Portland's one, fabled STEM/gifted magnet high school, which I know very little about. I do know that I have a family member in a western Portland suburb with two HG+ kiddos (I think their plan was to apply to DYS) and they tried K12 for a while but eventually even gave that up as a lost cause and went to homeschooling. There is a small group of high-ability homeschoolers in the Portland metro area, which they've found to be a delight (EPGY and socializing with like-minded kids-- YAY!). At least half of that group is DYS, from what my relative tells me.

Now, that is all regarding PUBLIC schools here. Private schools are an entirely different kettle of fish. There are (that I know of) two excellent boarding schools, and a fair number of excellent private dayschools in a variety of locations. The problem for us is the expense, frankly. If money is no object, there are opportunities there, no doubt.

With a PG kiddo, I'd stay away from small towns in the Northwest or California unless you plan to homeschool or can pursue private schooling.

Another factor to consider is that there are FAR fewer colleges and universities out here.

If I make it sound bleak, that's not really my intention. It's not the the schools here are bad. They aren't (clearly); see my note about our local high school, which is known for it's high-achieving students. It's just that it's far from ideal for HG+ students. We love living where we do, and thus far, that trade has been well worth it, in our estimation.

My sister lives south of San Francisco, and her DD (who is likely more gifted than mine) is well-placed, neither the smartest nor the most advanced, in her age-appropriate non-magnet public school class. Feel free to PM me for the school name.

We live in the Midwest, and my DD is not well-placed even after a grade skip. So from my perspective, I would not be looking for the school with the best gifted program, or the most flexibility for skipping. I'd be looking for the school with "lots of kids like mine."

I agree. Statistically, there just aren't going to be very many PG children in a city of fewer than 100K people, and this is what we've found to be the case. The problem out in the west is that the population centers are relatively isolated from OTHER population centers. To expand outward from a town of 50K in order to reach 150K, you might have to go outward to a radius of 200 miles or more. Distances are LONG here with not a lot in between (this is something that I think people from the Northeast have no real calibration for)-- the same general thing is true in the upper midwest and in the inland southwest.

This illustrates that concept better than any words possibly can:

http://sedac.ciesin.columbia.edu/gpw/index.jsp

We know no other children like my DD in our town of 65K, though in talking with other homeschoolers and with school administrators, there are about four to six of them in town. Our public school administrators have seen "a" student like her before-- four years ago, apparently.

My DD's virtual charter school has got fairly large numbers of accelerated kids, and obviously that suggests that there is enrichment of HG+ students in that population (about 4K from K through 12?), but even so, DD has only met a couple of other students like herself in six years (that is, those who require 3+ years of acceleration along with other accommodations). Those other students are invariably just as excited to meet others like themselves as my DD is. This suggests to me that most of them lack those kinds of peer experiences just as much as our DD does.

Contrast that with my cousin's experience in the Portland area, where they have found an HG/EG/PG homeschooling group with six to ten other children much like their own. They feel like they won the lottery, I must add with some envy.

I can only compare to what I know of others' experiences in places as diverse as Houston, Minneapolis, Seattle, Chicago, central California, southern Idaho, and Northern Virginia. The larger population centers simply offer a lot better fit and more opportunities to meet others at similar LOG.

Howler, you've offered wonderful insight and advice... but I just had to add one thing... there are 5 Pacific coast states... not 3 (please know I'm not picking on you, as a resident of one of the other two, I just couldn't let that one slip by!).

My experience in my farther north Pacific coast state has been that in our school district "gifted" is much more about achievement than it is about ability, and even though we have a magnet program for HG+ kids, public school wasn't ideal for our EG kiddo.. or for our high-achieving HG+ kiddo either.

When it comes to making decisions about where to live, however, my personal take on it is to choose based on where your family fits best outside of school - what do you like to do in your spare time? What's fun for you all together as a family? Things like that. Are you city folk? Do you like to ski? Are you at home on the water? Are you laid back or high energy? What do you do on the weekends together? I may be an outlier here in my outlook on it, but I tend to think that as long as we do the best we can do with the educational choices we have where we live, that's enough. We might not be able to offer our EG/PG kiddos the ultimately best education they could benefit from as children, but it's the values and memories and support system we give them as a family that is going to be the cornerstone they build on as they move forward in their adult life.

That said, I'm also danged frustrated with school and if all was equal re *outside* of school, we could transport friends with us, and it didn't cost $ I'd probably jump at the opportunity to move

Good luck with your move!

polarbear

Yes, my apologies! There are five!! (And I really should know better, having family scattered from Sitka to Kenai to Hilo and several points in between. )

I'll also say-- ditto to everything that Polarbear mentions. The Pacific NW region is not particularly urban-centric as far as lifestyle choices and culture go. What draws people to the cities in the region is that they are accessible to wilderness areas and all the activities that go with them. It's highly DIY/outdoorsy and fairly isolationist-leaning by nature, though that also means that transplants from elsewhere are not remarkable (which is a positive thing for those looking to move in).

I do think that the population map pretty much says it all. Coming from the northeast, this is going to be a decrease in options educationally, pretty much any way you look at things. The one possible exception is the LA basin, which has a large-enough population center to support more variety.

The trade in educational opportunity and cultural events will (maybe) be offset for some families with the access to low-cost outdoor activities and a relaxed/tolerant culture that actively supports... well, being 'quirky.' That part of life here is downright priceless.

I live in the Bay Area of California. Given the high concentration of smart people around here, the choices for education of gifted kids are shockingly limited. As HowlerKarma said, there isn't really a culture of support for gifted students out here.

Correction to HK: There are no HG+ public schools in the Bay Area. Redwood City (San Mateo County) has a school called North Star Academy (grades 3-8). Its website says it admits "high achieving" students. I looked at the math review packets for students entering different grades. The mathematics seems more in-depth than what I'm used to seeing in public school curricula, and is advanced but not super-advanced. They seem to do algebra in 7th grade. They also seem to have a lot of interesting-looking enrichment activities. My kids don't go there, though, so I'm only going off the website. I do know that public schools in this state don't want kids to do algebra II in 8th grade because "there's no test for it" at the middle school level. This is what I was told by my son's principal.

AFAIK, that's the only public school aimed at gifted kids in San Mateo and Santa Clara counties (and it's really aimed at "high achievers." Entry isn't based on IQ). I don't think that San Francisco, Alameda, or Contra Costa counties have any public schools for gifted kids.

There are a few private schools (Nueva and Harker stand out, but Harker is very expensive and very, very intensive). The others are pretty small. There's a private school for gifted students in Santa Cruz, but in an interview a couple of years ago, two of their teachers said that they met kids who had taught themselves to read at two or three but that everyone evens out by fourth grade. Very early reading was not seen as a sign of high IQ, but rather as simply a bland "milestone."

LA has a series of public K-12 schools for kids with IQs >= 145.

Picking a school is like a crap shoot. You just don't know what it will be like until you've lived it for a while, unless you know people whose gifted kids attend the school. The best you can do without knowing someone is to write up a list of questions, call the school, and press them until you get an answer. But it's hard because people will generally try to "sell" the school and your impression can differ a lot from reality.

Looks like Washington does a respectable job... (state spends $186 per g/t, vs. Oregon's $7)
This list of schools might help:
http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/schools.htm#uwa

Lowell High school, a public magnet school in San Francisco, has a good reputation.

$7...

Yeah, but I doubt that much of that spending is actually being felt in classrooms, at least from what we can tell... :rofl: Besides, I'm sure that there have been additional budget cuts since then.

(Can you tell that if I didn't laugh, I'd cry?)

Thanks so much for everyone's input--especially HowlerKarma. I totally understand your frustrations--we have had similar problems at a private school here, with teachers and admin not wanting to accelerate him etc--so it's not like private is some kind of miraculous haven for gifted kids. Anyway, back to the issue...

Portland and San Fran/Bay are both high on the list of priorities. We are left-leaning/bookish and also outdoorsy, and those seem like they'd be a good fit for us. But because we've had some bad school experiences we really want to settle in a place where the kids are not miserable and under-challenged. So thanks!

BTW I am trying to find info on the gifted high school in Portland--do you know the name? I am not finding anything on Portland's school site.

Yes, you're right. Though like North Star, admissions is achievement-based, rather than IQ-based (here's their admissions policy).

Ditto Val's comment on the lack of gifted schools/education in the Bay Area! It's pretty strange, given that there are a lot of bright kids here. We've focused on second language immersion vs. finding a GT school, but who knows how that will work out for my DD in the long run?

California's data puts it in between those two, at just over $86 per gifted student.

One thing that I think is worth highlighting, though, is that CA has identified over 500,000 students as gifted-- as compared with Oregon's 44,000. Washington has similar numbers of students identified as gifted (49,000).

That is significant for one (huge) reason-- there are as many gifted students in CA as there are students in the entire Oregon system. That means that finding peers with similar LOG is simply going to be harder if your pool is only 10% as large. Is that real, though? One might reasonably ask if CA is over-identifying gifted students, which I think is a fair question.

The answer? In Oregon, identification amounts to just over 7% of the state's K-12 students. As I think I noted earlier, in my own district this is something more like 25-30% depending upon the school (yes, we're a smart bunch around here as well), and the criteria are set by state law (I just think the bar is set far too low). Washington's only identifying about 5% of their students as "gifted" and finally, California identifies about 8% of their student population. So maybe there is some over-identification, but it's probably not too bad.

There is one important difference in CA, however, and that is that they also go to the trouble of differentiating between MG and PG students, something which neither WA nor OR does. Needless to say, that's a fairly significant difference, assuming that there are services provided in the first place (which, as I think $7-8 per pupil annually would argue... there aren't in my state ). Of course, with 25-30% of your district being identified, I suppose that adds up to... well, a new gymnasium floor, perhaps.

Hopefully the data here provides some food for thought, or at least a way to dig further.





(Data is from 2010-2011-- http://nagc.org/DataMapbyState.aspx )

There is the Nueva School in SF, which is a great school for the gifted. The Harker School in San Jose is another great school. There are also GATE programs at alot of the top public schools in the SF Bay area. Lowell HS is a phenomenal public school in SF. There are lots and lots of G/T programming opportunities in the Bay area!
I am so jealous- we don't have those kinds of things and just cobble things together best as we can.