What do you think of this?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/27/AR2008042702129.html

I see my son making decisions about what are "useful" assignments and what are meaningless, but I try to impress on him the importance of grades in getting into colleges and getting scholarships. I know I've harped on this before, but I think girls are more naturally "obedient" (or at least I was as a student) and wouldn't dare to not complete major % of homework. Part of me gets angry thinking the boy got that autonomy to make those decisions. Very interesting

I'm curious about why this autonomy angers you? Because you didn't take it yourself, or because you think it's wrong? I'm assuming the former, but maybe I misunderstand.

I was rather surprised at how supportive the comments that they posted were overall. Aside from one "It's not fair to the other kids if he gets a good grade and doesn't do his work!" the comments were all very understanding, very pro-GT.

Interesting, indeed...

I know on other forums and e-lists they've been asking people to write in and share info and experiences about GTness. I guess the writer is not very pro-GT, but he's sort of admitting he might have it all wrong.

On the issue of getting the choice to complete all the work, I guess there is always a difficult line we try to follow. Many of the "obedient" girls struggle with perfectionim. DH who teaches college has a ton of perfectionistic students who freak out if they don't get an A. They turn in all their work and they should get an A and if they don't get an A then they must be a bad person (or something like that). I don't think we want that either.

I agree, acs. Perfectionism's not good either, and it is the logical flip-side of this issue. I know my bigger fear for my HG+ child was that he'd toe the line too much and never learn to think for himself, not that he'd be too much of a rebel. Though neither one is exactly what we strive for as parents...

I guess my "anger" is based on my current situtation with my children (boys). As a parent I am frustrated with an adolescent who feels he has that autonomy to make those decisions (not do homework if it's stupid, turn in stuff late, not at all because it's difficult, but the opposite). I tell him the grade IS important. It is completely within his ability to Ace everything he's enrolled in, so I'm very frustrated and feel it's almost deliberate torture of mom (and dad) to scratch out the As at the very last moment. The boy in the story didn't get As always (C's in chemistry) because he couldn't be bothered with assignments. His parents were distressed that he couldn't get into Virginia Tech because his GPA wasn't stellar and I took her writing as a warning to other parents to not ignore the "rules" just to keep your kid challenged. On one hand I think it was a great thing for the kid, but on the other hand, it's exactly the point I'm trying to prove to my son. Sad fact that really good grades are easier to sell to colleges and scholarship opportunities. Just because a kid thinks he's too smart for the busy-work, doesn't mean he is excused from it. Hopefully in honors or AP classes, the assignments are valuable (we all know that doesn't always happen), but even if they're not, we as parents have to make our expectations known that they have to be done. I don't like to scrub toilets, think it's a waste of my abilities, but I still do it.

On the one hand, certainly GT kids, like everyone else, need to understand that some tasks that need to be done in life are extremely dull. On the other hand, usually those life tasks have a certain amount of importance above and beyond "following rules". For example, I need to get the bills paid, even though I hate it and it's boring, because if I don't there could be serious consequences to credit, not to mention the fact that the people whom I need to pay indeed need the payment. Tedious employer protocols need to be followed because they were set up for a reason (hopefully a good one lol). In contrast, with busywork, there is no benefit for the student or the school/teacher/class for the student having done busywork - it is merely a waste of time.

And yet, I have a hard time sympathizing with the student who chooses on their own not to follow the rules, even when the rules are really, really dumb. A better system somehow would allow for asking permission not to do the assignments, or something. I'm not sure how that would work though. Perhaps, at least in AP courses, which by their nature are supposed to be college-level work, the students should be treated likewise - graded only on a midterm and a final, with a failure to do assignments at the student's peril in terms of learning but not in terms of grades - another method to learning responsibility, I guess.

just some random thoughts

I know a few men pretty well who are brilliant, but don't like doing any work unless they understand why they are doing it. They didn't ever do well in school, but they are fabulous farmers, mechanics, fishermen, etc. They do a lot of grunt work in these jobs and they do it without complaining and they all have at least adequate self-discipline. They just didn't like school work. Not every brilliant person needs to go to college.

And some colleges are better suited to people who balk at useless tasks than others. Virginia Tech is not one of those, apparently. There are many great schools where there is more flexibility. They key is to try to find a good fit and to know that sometimes that means finding what your child needs outside of the 4 year college system.

I suspect some of this is "good college" syndrome: there are plenty of colleges that would accept someone with the scores this kid has, regardless of a few Cs on his transcript. From my admittedly cursory reading of this article, it sounds like they didn't apply to those colleges. Those schools that would want him are usually not the big and relatively cheap state schools, but are instead the far more expensive private colleges. I think that's probably the trade off: do less work and pay more money for college. Get straight As and high test scores and go for free or at least a lot closer to it.

Just another idea...

And has somebody who has been to both kinds of colleges, based on my experience (I know there are exceptions), I would say, "You get what you pay for." Those small colleges are darn good. I was not so impressed with my highly ranked state school experience.

I'm of so many minds on this one.

One thing that struck me at the blog of the G&T teacher, was a mom wrote in after telling her DD that school is preparation for life where you'll have to do boring, mundane stuff all the time. The DD remarked and I"m paraphrasing here "Well if life is as boring as school, I'm going to commit suicide b/c it's just not worth it." The DD meant it. The mom knew changes had to be made.

I think you have to look at degrees. If it's one course DC is bored with, it's a good lesson to learn dealing w/ boredom, playing the game, toeing the line etc. If most of all the classes are this way, then something needs to change. The boy in the letter took outside courses to learn, from those courses he learned how to study, etc...if DC is content to do all the boring, easy work just to make A's and never learns to study, persevere when things get hard, that will not serve them in college either where most will encounter some need to study.

Also, I think it is hard to know what is going on in someone else's mind. I battle nightly w/ DS over homework. This is easy stuff he could have easily done a year or more ago. Why can't he do it? He says "when it's too easy, I just can't focus on it." So i'm yelling, he's crying, 2hrs later he is finishing a worksheet that it takes the rest of the kids 10min to do. On occasion he has not done the homework and I let him reap the consequences but there are none from the teacher. So perhaps he does have trouble focusing on it rather than being disobedient, bucking the rules, etc. I don't know.

I do model all the boring tasks that i have to do and what the consequences are for not doing them. But I think for elementary aged kids, it's hard to say that what they are doing now, bad habits they are forming, will affect them as adults. My DH told DS "Just wait until Highschool, you'll be able to take AP classes." DS said "Highschool is so far away." And he's right...for a 2nd grader, high school is far away. But I know my boring tasks are for the good of the household/family. I'm not sure what the higher good is of doing work DC has already mastered.

Can you tell I struggle with this topic constantly...ying yanging between extremes? And then settling in the middle?

Dazed and confused (aka Dazey)

I'm glad the topic was posted again-- did you see the update? Because of the article, he got offered a free ride somewhere. I'm really concerned about the aspect of kids not doing the homework. Dazey, I had that too, the wasted hours with the horrible worksheets that could take five seconds to do.
So I tried something new. I sat down with her and told her to write down the first answer, and the second. She looked at me in shock and we finished the rest of the worksheet in a minute. I said, "see how fast that was? Let's whip through all of these and then play a game."
Now, whenever she sees something mind-numbing, she generally tries to do it as fast as she can. Through many conversations with her about it, I've tried to have her focus on speed, so it's like a little game.
With certain assignments she likes doing, such as making a graph or math, she never has problems--and takes her time-- it always seems to be the mind-numbingly useless stuff that makes her sit there for hours.
I am hoping this will make her turn in her homework in the future!

Calizephyr - yes I used that strategy also and it worked for a time. I also used a timer to illustrate to him that it didn't take as long as he imagined it would. I'd have him estimate how long he thought it would take - he'd usually say an hour, then I'd start the timer and he'd get to work, only to find it took 10min instead. That too worked for a time. The school has requested I give him external rewards, which I don't use very often, for doing homework. I'm trying that and it is working ok for now.

My son and I have talked about this a few times. He says he thinks having to do busy work in school does not prepare kids for real life like some people think because it is not like the real world. He said with most jobs there is a chance for promotion and that is an incentive to work hard at the boring stuff. With school there is no incentive when you know that after doing all that busy work you still will not be allowed to "level up" in knowledge.

At my son's old school they rarely allow grade skipping and they don't let gifted kids learn anything beyond grade level material. They also have more busy work for homework so that there isn't as much time for learning what they want to learn outside of school. I think this is sad. This should be their time to learn as much as they can before becoming adults with all those adult responsibilities and so little time. I don't think it is right to squander their precious learning time by forcing kids to do busy work if they have already mastered a concept.

I don't think grades would be an incentive for my son at all because an A in something that was easy for him wouldn't mean much to him. The incentive for him is learning and knowing more than he did the day before.

I remember when my husband told me about problems with his highly gifted older son from his previous marriage not turning in homework and getting bad grades even though he made the highest scores on tests, I didn't have much sympathy for his son, but now that I can see my son has some similar issues, I have changed my mind about some of this. My stepson did not develop a good work ethic in public school. My husband and I knew we had to do something different with our child and homeschooling was really the only choice we had.

After seeing my son work hard at preparing for the spelling bee and working very hard at learning dances for musical theater when this is not easy for him as a child with motor dyspraxia, I know that he is developing a good work ethic. I just don't see how making a kid do lots of busy work when they have already learned the concepts would have a positive effect.

I am hoping that my son will be able to test out of some classes at a community college when he is high school age instead of taking high school level classes in those subjects and doing busy work. I have heard of other homeschoolers doing this and their kids didn't have any trouble transferring to a 4 yr college.

For us, I would say the "incentives" are:

1) setting a good example for 3 younger brothers. If they see oldest getting away with it, why would they comply?

2) for the sake of family finances. If they can get scholarships, an enormous amount of money is at stake (4 kids). This translates directly to hours my H spends outside of home. I want them to understand that goofing off (when it'd be simple and virtually painless not to) makes Dad have to work more, play less, have a lower quality of life.

3) personal satisfaction

I just read through for more of the mother's comments (thanks for pointing these out as I had skipped them by accident the first time). It sounds like the after investigating their options, they have fallen in love with Iowa State and are realizing that it was probably good they Virginia Tech didn't take them as it allowed them to find a school that suits their child better.

I am very happy for them. There really are a ton of great schools with lots of different personalities. I guess instead of trying to force my child to be someone he is not, I would rather spend my time helping him find the place(s) that will allow him to thrive!

I'm with your son, Lori H. Yes, life is not always going to leave you giddy with excitement. But if I worked in a job that made me bored and miserable, unrewarded in any way that meant anything to me, with no hope of advancement or any hope of improving the situation, I'd quit! I hope any adult would! A boring school situation is *NOT* real life.

Even as a stay-at-home mom, I have the hope that my kids will eventually not need diapers (check!), not need me to do all their laundry, not need me to scrub their toilet, etc. But a child in school has only the hope that eventually s/he will age out of that class. And if the only thing to look forward to is another class just like that one...well, it's not hard to see why cooperation becomes hard to come by in some kids.

Personally, I don't think tolerating boredom is really a lesson worth learning in school. Let them learn that lesson at home in the summer, when they are actually able to use that boredom to fuel creative enterprises and teach themselves how to stay entertained without relying on anyone else or on electronics to keep them busy! Learning how to be alone and stay occupied? Now that's a lesson I believe is important.

And BTW, I agree, acs, about finding a place to help a child thrive rather than chasing some perception of "good school"-ness. So right!

YES! My 2nd grader regularly complains that we don't have enough time to do history or TKD b/c school takes up so much of his time. In the evenings, he needs free time to rough house or play LEGOS w/ his younger brother or to play w/ his toddler sister. Even if he's not challenged at school, it still wears him out.

I totally agree with this too. And I think this goes for schooling at all levels - not just college. What might be a good school for one child might not be great for another.

I have really mixed feelings about this article. I wasn't quite the rule breaker in high school this boy was, but I did coast a bit. I kind of feel when you get to the level of AP classes, yes - you do need to be prepared to play the game a bit if you want good grades. Not as an elementary or jr. high student obviously. I wish I would have learned this at a younger age. Either that or arrange to have independent study and get graded a different way.

The mother did start this article by saying that you should home school your bright students. I'm obviously not saying that she's right. But maybe they did make the wrong educational decision for her son to truly shine? Maybe another school environment or home school would have been better for him. Especially when you contrast this article to the homeschooled young lady who got accepted to every college she applied including Harvard a couple weeks ago. You also do have to be a bit prepared to jump through some professors hoops at college.

Regardless, I don't think this is a disaster by any means. My brother got a technical degree from Iowa State and it is a very nice school. Coincidentally, he also was a bit of a coaster in high school. I also went to a large Midwestern tech university and had a great experience.

I read somewhere that the highest-stress jobs are the ones that give a person the greatest amount of repetition and boredom and the lowest amount of autonomy.

They were talking about adults, obviously, but that sure seems applicable to some school situations for GT kids. No wonder they're often exhausted and cranky!

Kriston - you are so right! DS would be wiped out w/ school and come home cranky. Over the summer, he was given the opportunity to take two MadScience camps back to back due to low enrollment in the aeronautics course. they gave a huge discount and said that if it proved too much for DS (then aged 6), we could drop one of the classes for a full refund. He was there from 9-4am, and had lunch w/ the instructors and the few kids who stayed all day. Well, the kid came home soooooo energized!!!! He was happy and talkative. Nothing like how he returns home from school.

We observed the same thing when we switched from public school with no real accomodations to homeschooling.

It's amazing the difference a challenge and a sense of control over one's life can make to an attitude!