Okay, all you math and science whizzes out there, how about some suggestions for making math fun for DS8. EPGY math just killed his love of math. He is interested in the animated CTY Elementary Problem Solving I/Destination Math course, but I'm thinking he needs fun math activities, too. Also, he loves science and will need math for science. (He is completely self-educated in science so far, thanks to the Science Channel, mostly). In EPGY, he liked geometry and fractions - he's a visual-spatial type. His big objection has been the calculations. I'd like a way for him to absorb those without realizing he's "working" and other things to make problem solving fun. Thanks in advance for the help!

hmm. Well, we play Yahtzee at our house -- it's fun for probability and for multi-digit adding, though your ds is likely past that.

I'll be interested to read any responses! KG loves doing math that's intuitive for him (which is quite a bit) but rather balks at sitting and "learning" anything, especially on paper.

Following with interest!

Oh, and has he done any Rainforestmaths.com? Not sure what level your ds is working at, but that has a variety of topics that are presented simply and visually.

Hi, Mia,

I thought I posted but it didn't go through. I don't remember Yahtzee, but I'll check it out. And DS is definitely not beyond it -he hasn't done any math this summer and he does not have ready recall of basic math facts.

btw, Rainforestmaths.com is down b/c of illegal copying/access, whatever that was referring to...

Thanks for the tips!

According to a list I'm on, Rainforest Math is gone, perhaps only temporarily, perhaps for good. I haven't gone on it to confirm, but they're pretty reliable about that sort of thing, so I think it's probably accurate.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news there, but I didn't want you to have an afternoon planned around the website only to discover that it's not there anymore.

To the original question...

You might consider joining the Living Math group, questions, assuming MORE e-mail isn't a problem for you. It's a busy group, and I just hit <delete> on a lot of it. But sometimes good stuff comes my way. And the whole point of the site is that math should be ALIVE, part of life, not some isolated thing that kids hate. That can help with the "I hate math" issue, I think.

www.livingmath.net

The link to join the Yahoo group is on that page.

At least it's probably worth poking around the site a bit.

I wish I had better ideas for you!

Questions - I'm dealing with the same issue w/ DS. He says math is boring yet he can't tell me what he wants done differently. He says he wants harder math but not too hard. He has very little stamina with anything though that requires a bit of effort. I've bought some Zaccaro books which he seems to like. He likes games so we play Rightstart Math games. I have Yahtzee and will definitely take that out!!!

He also loves living math books such as "What's the Angle Pythagoras?" "The Librarian who measured the earth" etc but your DS8 might be beyond those. We're also doing the history of math which he enjoys.

Cool website, I just bookmarked it. I've seen that there comes a point when math really isn't that fun at the elementary level. I think DD8 didn't love math when she hit multiplication.
I did do some things with geometry, but followed some advice I was given about making her plod through and memorize the facts before going too far beyond.
She likes Aleks Quick Tables. They add the element of speed, which makes it more exciting, then after a certain amount of work the child can access games in which the use the facts they know to "win".
I was advised that it would be a good idea to get her to the point of instant recall for mult. and div. facts because everything that came next was going to draw on that.

That's what I've been seeing so far, but also I think by algebra and beyond it becomes more interesting for them again, at least I hope so.

This has been a tough problem for me, and I find myself stumbling along doing the best I can.

At times maths is fun, but I confess that I stay away from trying to make learning fun overall. Learning is work --- sometimes hard work. I fear that putting too much effort into calling or making it fun risks inspiring kids to shut down when it isn't fun anymore.

The fun part for me is the initial thrill of a new idea and the end result of figuring something out and in my case (I hope) implementing a real solution to a real problem.

So, that said: I have two goals when I teach my kids: 1. teach them that if they keep trying, they can understand something that looks "too hard" initially, and 2. don't make them hate learning by pushing #1 too much. Easy to write, hard to implement.

With maths, the understanding with my 8 year old is that we do something twice a week for 30-60 minutes, depending. Sometimes he doesn't want to do maths, but there are times when he suddenly gets interested in spite. For example, I was teaching him to multiply polynomials the other day and he complained initially. Then, suddenly, the penny dropped and the details fell into place. At this point, he became very engaged and got right down to finishing the problems I had given him. Suddenly, that Impossible Problem was not so difficult. Big smile.

Val

A small essay on

"Why we do mathematics"

"Mathematicians are just like human beings. They don't enjoy adding up columns of numbers or balancing their checkbooks. They don't multiply 398 by 975 for fun. They do math because it makes life easier. Doing math is the easiest way to make sure that our bridges don't fall down or our airplanes don't crash"


I found this on one of the Life of Fred books. I typed it and taped it to my dd's computer. Most of the time she enjoys math, once in a while she doesn't. When that happens this small essay reminds her why it is important to know math.

I think anything we *can* make fun, we should, with the understanding that not everything in life is a party. But I don't see the reason to stress ickiness in learning. One of the hallmarks of a GT child is that learning IS often fun for them. That's a big pro, so I see no reason to make it a con.

That's not to say that learning is or should be always EASY. Fun and easy are often mutually exclusive, frankly. Overcoming a good challenge is what makes a person feel good about what she has accomplished.

So I guess I'm with you at the end of your post, but not necessarily at the beginning of your post, Val.

Especially when faced with a child who is deciding that he hates math, I think it pays to find the joy there, as questions is doing. The "joy" may wind up being more challenging material, it may be a more bouncy package (graphics, games, etc.), or it may be just a different approach. But I think when you have a child--especially a mathy child!--who is deciding that math is icky, it is wise to shift gears and find more fun.

FWIW...

You know, Val, I agree with this. You kind of put into words what I try to do. Number one is very important for my children because we have been attempting to ward off some pretty significant perfectionism issues. I know that if perfectionism becomes an ingrained habit, it could be pretty counterproductive to their success as adults, and even as kids sometimes!

Especially for youngest daughter I worked on this over the summer. She would literally shut down if something didn't immediately(and I truly mean immediately) register. Then her self confidence was affected, she's smart enough to know she's smart but that conflicted with her belief that she should know everything right away, KWIM.

So there were a few tears, but gently I would ask her to just relax, and think. I showed her how to slow down her breathing to self calm. Wait a minute, then look at it again. In most cases, she was able to figure it out, then she would acually laugh and say it was easy and continue!

I think she was developing an extreme fear of "failure" and I put that in quotes because I'm still not sure what she thinks failure is. I did, however, know we were starting to travel down a bad path and I really think whatever was happening in school last year really exaserbated this for her.

I would not ever push them to learn something that they were not ready to learn or to the point of significant distress. But I do think my mommy instincts are pretty good at knowing where this is for my children.

Children develop self esteem by facing a challenge that looks difficult, maybe not even sure if they can accomplish it. Then accomplishing it. Isn't that the best? Who can argure that it's not just an awesome way to develop great self-esteem. Most kids get that during the course of the school day at some point. I will argue, not so in most cases for HG(+) kids.

I would like suggestions on making math fun - or am I better off phrasing it as looking for fun math activities? Thanks.

Oh, do I ever agree. My kids do very well when they conquer something that seemed TOO HARD!

I agree with you: I feel it's the job of the parent to know when something really is too hard and when something is being avoided due to some type of fear or uncertainty.

In addition to addressing perfectionism and self-esteem, I find that this approach can help kids learn to persevere. By remembering "I thought I couldn't do [x] before, and I tried and I did it. Maybe I can do this too, even though it's hard."

Val

Thank you - this is exactly what I'm looking for! Do you know what kind of math games they played? DS isn't doing any math over the summer, but we will be homeschooling this fall and I'd like fun to supplement whatever he ends up doing for math. I'd also like to use fun to get the math facts into long term memory, and to work on speed. I'm looking to restore the math joy - exactly!!!! Thank you.

Exactly! I am definately trying to cultivate that perseverance attitude in my children.

�It�s a funny thing about life: if you refuse to accept anything but the very best,
you will often get it.� � W. Somerset Maugham

�Obstacles cannot crush me. Every obstacle yields to stern resolve. He who is
fixed to a star does not change his mind.� � Leonardo Da Vinci

�Far away there in the sunshine are my highest aspirations. I may not reach them, but I can look up and see their beauty, believe in them, and try to follow where they lead.�

� Louisa May Alcott


Perhaps I have been brainwashed, but to this day I don't believe there is anything I can't do if it is important enough for me!

Questions,

I hope you can figure something out, I don't think there are exact answers. DD8 did ultimately find memorizing mult. and div. facts "fun" when she used Alek's because it became a game to her. In fact, the pressure of the speed element seemed to enliven her, but another child may have an opposite reaction.

I think it's a matter of preference. Lots of people will argue that mental calculation isn't of as much importance because of calculators. Our girls seem to posess their father's math aptitude, so they will learn the calculations and are great thinkers as well.
If a child is really resisting, it could be that they are not in a good place for certain learning at the moment. You could spend hours agonizing and pushing it, then both parent and child are miserable, when that child could easily and quickly learn it at a later time when they are ready.

We are all different in the way we learn and many of our paths will be different. Whatever works for you child is the best path for him IMO.

Oh BTW, sorry for going off track on your question/thread.

Maybe I can come up with something helpful if you give an idea of what he's currently doing in math that doesn't seem fun to him.

Try reading the math story books such as Math Devil. I would alternate between this, a workbook math and math computer games. He may also prefer word problems to plain calculation.

Have you tried Timez Attack? Try www.timezattack.com; you can buy an upgraded version, but it's all basically the same. It's a sort of RPG, but with multiplication facts as weapons. KG used to play that one a lot.

Or www.FunBrain.com? That's arcade style, multiple levels.

My KG suggests using easy problems.

Yes, Neato, that's it exactly. Even his OT says he's not developmentally ready - even though he can do it. And he's definitely one of those I can't do it, it's too hard ... oh, that was easy! kids. For now, I just want to get the bad taste for math out of his mouth.

And I agree with what everyone said about learning not being fun all the time, and understand it. But I am looking for fun.

And good idea, Mia, to work on Timez Attack again. That's how he learned the multiplication tables. Those were tense times, with a sweaty mouse, under time pressure, LOL. That's the sort of stuff I think I should sprinkle into math. And he enjoyed the Number Devil CD. So I think before we start another formal math curriculum, we'll do some playing with all this stuff.

Good suggestions! Keep 'em coming. Thanks.

Have you tried just finding things he'd *want* to calculate? How far the earth is from the sun and each of the planets, for example (since science is his thing).

Sometimes it's all about the context.

Thanks, Kriston, but he knows all that, LOL! And he knows why he needs math (particularly since he loves science so much). I'm going to take the master of none approach and see what happens. I think that's the way to go with him. Thanks.

Of course he does! LOL! I just meant that as an example off the top of my head, since I am not terribly science-y. But there must be something he'd like to know about that you could use as the raw material for doing calculations with.

No, I know - I was joking. There are huge calculations which interest him, but not enough to make him actually do them. He did like the Zaccaro book, so we'll work on that one again, too, when camp is over. Thanks!

Having a morning coffee, I found this thread. Do not have time to read beyond first page now, but found something I wanted to underline:
Like someone else pointed out, it can't be all fun, because eventually it is bound to become hard work, and if you have been after fun only, you are in big trouble.

My kids are past that stage, they both understand that it is work, sometimes easier, sometimes more difficult. When they were younger, I did notice two things:
1. Everything was MUCH MORE FUN when mom or dad were doing it with them, even math.
2. My kids had only educational games when thay were young. Mostly Jumpstart series. It was fun, and lower level math deals with a lot of computing in a funny, enjoyable way.

Now questions, I know that you understand about fun versus work

Thanks, Ania! I'll look into both those things. DS is too young to have decided that he hates math, and I'd like to turn that around.

I think there's a difference between trying to make life a party all the time and trying to turn around the attitude of a kid who is starting to hate math. Two very different issues.

The former is counterproductive and useless; the latter is a vital educational necessity!

Absolutely Kriston! You know, I was wondering why he started hating math in the first place. Forgive me if you already posted that. I read the original post when it showed up, but now I don't remember if that was mentioned............



Absolutely! DD8 just liked me to sit next to her even though she was working independently. In fact, I think it was ME who was crying at one point......please, please can we stop doing math now!!!!!!!

It was the EPGY Grade 3 online course.

It was very repetitive, especially since he had already taken the Elementary Problem Solving I Course through CTY, which covered multi-digit addition and subtraction, carrying, borrowing, multiplication and even long division. I think one of the big problems was that the courses overlapped, and there are a ton of problems that you have to do even if you know the stuff. Also, for a visual-spatial kid, it was static and visually uninteresting. The tutor even said that many young children have a hard time with the "rather dated" presentation of the course. On the other hand, I know many love it, and I would have loved it as a kid. I liked to work in sequence and watch my progression. On the plus side, all that repetition was good for his basic math skills. I think it was a case of the wrong curriculum for the wrong child - but I paid a lot for it and made him finish it. He did extremely well in the course, but it was probably a mistake for him.

I think this is the answer, right here, for DS:



Thanks!

Me too, M&M! Long live that brand of idealism!

I agree with you, master of none, with respect to my child. Did you see that I did PM you earlier for suggestions?

Thanks.

Here are a few ideas.

1. Zome (http://www.zometool.com/)
2. Equate, SET & other math games (http://www.mindwareonline.com) Mindware has a great selection of math games.
3. Math puzzles like sudoku and kakuro. See Mindware for more ideas.
4. Math books (http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/mathematics.htm)- I recommend The Number Devil, but there are many, many other good books on this list.
5. ClueFinders & Zoombinis (http://www.learningcompany.com/jump.jsp?itemType=CATEGORY&itemID=89) - I have found many Cluefinder and Zoombini titles on the discount software sites. My dd9 loves these games and will play them multiple times.
6. Math websites (http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/math.htm) There are great sites listed relating to topics such as tesselations, fractals, Fibonacci numbers, and others that you will not necessarily see in a regular math textbook.
7. Science applications- There are so many science applications, it just depends on your child's interests. My dd loves learning about chemistry. When I have time, I teach her some chemistry basics. She had fun building molecules out of magnetix. Here are a few interesting science websites.
http://www.rsc.org/chemsoc/visualelements//pages/pertable_fla.htm
http://www.chem4kids.com/files/elements/001_speak.html
http://cnse.albany.edu/Nano_for_Kids/nano_games.html

^^Thanks Texas Summer - you are good !

Thanks, Texas Summer. That list looks great. And thanks in particular for the science links. That's what DS loves.

BTW, Questions, we did get Destination math and while it is cartoonish and entertaining, it does seem to move too slow and is repetitive.

Sorry, Neato. Looking back, I think that was the problem with EPGY, too. You have to do all the problems before you can move on. I just saw on homeschool buyers co-op that they have a Destination Math that is tied to the Saxon Math curriculum. Makes me think that they just change the order of what they have and CTY may be a bit different (or more streamlined?). My DS liked it b/c he liked Digit, the colors and the animation. I think we're going to try Singapore so he gets used to writing his answers, and use either HeyMath or Destination Math to supplement/mix it up.

Well I think that's just a fabulous plan! Probably because we will do the same.

I've planned to supplement Singapore with Destination Math. Let's trade notes going forward. I am not pursuing HeyMath, so if you do, please let me know how it is.

Deal!

And keep me in the loop, too, please.

We're having our weird math year, but if it doesn't go well, we'll have to try something else. Singapore Math was not cutting it for him--I think I was taking it too slowly for DS7--so we would probably have to move faster plus do more game-type stuff to keep him interested in the practice that he would need to do so he didn't start hating math again.

Sound familiar?

I found that DS6 gets excited about math when he spends time with a mentor who is passionate about math (i.e., not me). For example, my mathy dad got DS excited about learning binary by teaching him about the Nim game. DS wanted to learn the "secret": http://www.csm.astate.edu/Nim.html.
My math/physics brother played the dot/box game (the one where you draw lines between adjacent dots in an array and try to complete more boxes than your opponent) and got DS interested in coming up with a formula for figuring out how many possible boxes you could make with an XxY array of dots (or something like that - I wasn't excited enough to pay too much attention .

I think there's a real art to teaching math to mathies -- the key is to get them excited enough in a problem so that they *want* to do the grunt work to solve it. I'm sure DS would not be interested in learning binary had it not been for the context of the game. I think the competitive aspect helped too.

I SO agree, Jool! Excitement and love of math really are key, I think.

As far as math facts go, "Multiplication Rock" was a fun way for DS to learn his times tables without trying. The catchy songs really make those facts stick!

Thnaks, Jool. All good suggestions, and he used to listen to multiplication rock. We'll try again. Just seems to me that when the basic math facts are in easy grasp, all the rest of it gets easier. That Nim game was fascinating. Unfortunately, I don't have a math/physics brother, DH or self, so I rely on all of you, LOL!

I know we've "talked" about this before but math club/math competitions. There are some for younger kids (continental math, math olympiad, math kangaroo). If they work with a small group of capable math kids, it's worked better for my kids.

Cym,

Thanks. That's my goal - to get him to the point where he can sustain his effort over a long enough period of time to solve math, science or other problems. And hopefully, enjoy doing it. He's a kid who craves information and analyzes it, but who does not have a lot of patience for things that come to him more slowly. I think he gets that from DH. I once got DS one of those small dino dig toys - you know, the ones where you have to scrape away patiently and carefully like a real paleontologist until you find the embedded fossil? Well, I thought that would be a good father/son activity last year. Within 5 minutes, I hear DH say "this is ridiculous," and the next thing I know DH is using the Dremel (power tool) and the fossil was revealed in less than a minute! That's what I'm up against, LOL!

Oh MY questions - that is toooo funny!!!!

ROFL! That is so funny. Half the battle is knowing what you're up against, right?

Dremel tools rock! That is really funny - I have never been one for the slow but steady route either!

To add to Texassummer's great list:

http://www.quia.com/shared/search

My ds8 has enjoyed various versions of math battleship. This site seems to have everything from games on IR verbs in french to quizzes on fundamentals of electricity. I have not checked this out too much so far, but playing the listed games is free without signing up (at least those we have tried).

Thank you, Chris. I'm getting so much great stuff from all of you! Battleship is fun. (and for some reason, I had to sign up to access the games, but maybe I clicked on the wrong thing)

LOL!

Well, and frankly, slow and steady is greatly overrated! If you've got a Dremel, why not use it!?!

In future, it is probably a good idea to tell DH what the overriding goal is before he pulls out the power tools and undermines your grand plans!

Bumping away the spam!

I got a good laugh about it from his OT. (DS's, that is, not DH's )

Though maybe DH needs one, too, huh? <smirk> ROFL!