I just found this forum today and am reaching out in hopes of someone knowing at least where to point me for more information.

My youngest son is now 10 and entering 5th grade. He was placed in special education in second grade after private testing proved a learning disability of dysgraphia. At that point the psychologist said my son's IQ was 121 but that the result was most likely skewed from the disability.

Through speech therapy, Wilson reading, and occupational therapy, my son has made dramatic improvements in the areas of reading and writing. His spelling is still abysmal and most likely always will be. He still cannot tie his shoes or ride a bike, but he did learn to swim this summer - something he couldn't do a few years ago.

At the insistence of both his second and fourth grade teachers and at my request, the diagnostician finally agreed to test him for gifted over the summer. He tested in the gifted range in critical thinking and creativity but showed a GAI score of 119 on the Wexler IQ test. The diagnostician, who originally said she could take into account his disability when looking at the final IQ score and making a gifted placement, is now saying that since the IQ is not 130 and because he tested at grade level or above in all of the academic areas, it no longer shows evidence of a disability.

My son displays many of the characteristics of the gifted personality and already produces his own movies, writes his own music, and has verbal communication skills that tested at an equivalent of grade 13.

I have an upcoming IEP based on the gifted testing and re-evaluation of his current special ed placement for his disability. The diagnostician is going to recommend that all special ed services be stopped and that he is not qualified for gifted. I am very concerned about my son's ability to adapt to the rigid structure of a regular classroom in mid-school and want to do what I can to help maintain support services without holding him back.

Is there any type of resource that would document skewed IQ results due to a learning disability? His teachers are very aware from their own experience that he has a high IQ and say that they do not believe the results. Neither do I.

Any help you might have is greatly appreciated.

Thank you for the feedback. I do not believe he was given the FSIQ; this didn't appear on the results the diagnostician sent me. The results plus the subtest results for the WISC IV are below:

One thing, however, is that I don't understand the statement that only the block design would be affected by the dysgraphia. It has impacted several areas of performance for my son, including his ability to read and recognize words and comprehend what he reads.

WISC IV:
General Ability Index 119
Verbal Comprehension Index 114
Perceptual Reasoning Index 117
Similarities 15 Block Design 12
Vocabulary 11 Picture Concepts 13
Comprehension 12 Matrix Reasoning 13

SOI:
Creativity
Divergent Production of Figural Units (DFU) This is a timed test of the student�s ability to draw creatively.
16 Limiting

Divergent Production of Semantic Units (DMU) This is a timed test of verbal fluency and creativity. It assesses willingness to express one�s ideas freely. 84 Superior

Critical Thinking
Cognition of Semantic Relations (CMR) This is a test of the ability to see relations between ideas or meanings of words. The task is to identify what comes between the two other things.
94 Gifted

Convergent Production of Symbolic Implications (NSI) This subtest involves logic and form reasoning. It requires the student to �add� figures rather than numbers. 94 Gifted

Thanks for the help. Yes, dysgraphia is very similar to dyslexia with the additional fine motor issue in addition. Thanks again.

It is absolutely untrue that if someone is performing at grade level they don't have a disability any more.

Lots of gifted kids with LDs don't get services because of this line of thinking, but if the disability hinders their academic performance or their functioning in the school setting, they should be served.

I would recommend you do some reading about your child's rights at the Wrightslaw website (their books are good too); there's also some good information out there if you google "twice exceptional."

We also had good results when we hired an educational advocate who was familiar with our school district and knowledgeable of the fine points of the law.

DeeDee

So it looks like they only gave him the tests that make up the perceptual reasoning and verbal index. Do you know why they omitted the working memory and processing speed indices? I have two children for whom the GAI was used in lieu of full scale IQ, so I do understand that those two can be dropped if there is a big discrepancy btwn them and the PRI/VCI subtests, but not giving them at all seems odd.

Do you have the breakdown of his IQ testing from the earlier testing as well? That might be telling to see if there were some wide swings on some of these tests.

I, too, have never heard of the other tests they gave him. Do the "94 gifted" scores mean 94th percentile?

Thank you, Dee Dee. That is the part that is most frustrating - and I will look at the website you've recommended. I don't min him going to no pull outs but I want the accommodations left in place so that he is allowed to type reports, dictate reports, etc.

Cricket - yes, the 94 is a percentile. I don't know why she chose the tests that she did, or why she omitted others. I will ask. I'll also get in touch with the previous psychologist and ask for a copy of the test results. What would large discrepancies in the two tests indicate if any exist?

ABQmom, is this diagnostician part of the school (or district)? I have seen appallingly bad testing methods in schools; you may need to bring results from an outside professional into the discussion.

I would also recommend getting a private OT on board to work on shoe tying and balance (toward the bike riding). Not being able to do these things can be very stigmatizing for a kid; they're not academic skills, but they are important IMHO.

DeeDee

Thank you for all the feedback - it's nice to know I'm not alone, because it very much feels that way when I'm in a meeting with people who would rather I just be quiet and go along with what is easiest for them. There is a lot to digest, so thank you very much.

I'm not sure on the discrepencies btwn test sessions if they exist. We do have that situation with our younger dd, but both of her scores were gifted or pretty darn close. One was just highly gifted and the other not that high.

In our instance, the erratic performance btwn tests leaves me wondering if any of the scores are accurate. I am disinclined to take the lower scores as gospel. I am also not taking the high scores as gospel either, honestly.

My take away message has been that, if the child is inconsistent, don't make decisions based upon one set of test scores. I wouldn't do away with a 504 or IEP based upon one score looking like he didn't have a problem, for instance. I also wouldn't decide that my child is DYS material based upon one score either, for instance.

Keep in mind that under IDEA, if a child with a learning disability needs services beyond accommodations to continue to make progress, they should stay on the IEP even if they are now at grade level. The question is whether or not your son can continue to access the curriculum without the specialized instruciton, modifications or anything else on his IEP. It sounds like both you and his teachers don't think so.

As you've pointed out, the team should also keep in mind that once a child is in MS, the structure and supports in a general classroom tend to diminish, the amount of writing across all subject areas tends to increase. They should consider this when making the eligibility decision.

Finally, tell us more about your child's dysgraphia. Is it only a visual motor/handwriting issue or are there other issues going on? Often times organization, attention, processing speed, spelling, working memory issues create troubles in writing. Many of these were not tested based on the scores you posted. Here is a great article on writing evaluations.http://www.wrightslaw.com/info/test.written.lang.htm

If for any reason you are not happy with the results of the evaluation, you are entitled to an independent educational evaluation by a qualified evaluator of your choice paid for by the district. If you are not satisfied with how the meeting goes, I would recommend asking for the IEE, rejecting the finding of inelegibility. Until the new evaluation is completed, and the team reconvene's, the current (old) IEP stays in place under IDEA"s Stay Put clause.

As far as your initial question about dysgraphia impacting WISC scores - visual motor skills are required for the Processing Speed Index. Based on what you reported, they did not do these subtests. Occasionally motor skills can lower the block design scores a bit too, but your child seemed to do ok. The GAI basically takes out the negative impact of dysgraphia.

I think that the basis for dysgraphia can be complicated and could affect more than the PRI. I'm thinking that things like block design, picture concepts and matrix reasoning could also be affected.

Sometimes gifted kids have "stealth dyslexia" which has more impact on their writing than on their reading skills. They are using other skills to compensate when reading. They may still have weaknesses in visual perception, however.

Read here for more information: http://eideneurolearningblog.blogspot.com/2005/09/stealth-dyslexia-when-writing-is.html

Just wanted to add - if all you want are accommodations such as word processing, more time, dictating as needed, these can be given under a 504 plan. Generally speaking, a 504 plan does not provide the same level of protection as an IEP, and does not give you the procedural safegaurds that an IEP provides, but it is a way to document that your son needs certain supports (not modifications or instruction) to access the curriculum.

Again Wrightslaw is a great resource to learn more about 504. Here are some links that may help:
Understanding the Differences Between IDEA and Section 504 http://www.ldonline.org/article/6086
http://www.ldonline.org/indepth/accommodations
IEP/504 Similarities and Differences http://www.wrightslaw.com/advoc/articles/504_IDEA_Rosenfeld.html
Generally speaking, an IEP offers more and if you can keep it, you'll be better off.

Yikes! I am not an expert on IDEA, but don't let them drop his services if you think he needs them. I believe they cannot change his IEP without your consent. If you don't sign the new one, the old one remains in place. He won't have new goals, but at least he can keep the accomodations.

I think you need some outside testing. A diagnosis of dysgraphia from an outside psychologist is going to be hard for them to ignore. I also agree with getting an outside OT assessment. You might also want to talk to an advocate. Try the yellowpages on wrightslaw.com to find one.

keet - you are right. What you are referring to is Stay Put: http://www.spedwatch.org/files/Stay-Put.pdf

Thank you all so much. I feel like an army is behind me now as I prepare for the next meeting at school.

To answer a few of the questions I can remember - yes, we're addressing his OT outside of school as well as in school. Some skills that were impossible a couple of years ago (swimming) developed quickly this summer as he's matured a bit more. He's even considering joining the club's youth swim team next year where we took him for lessons.

The dysgraphia has a much broader reach in terms of challenges in my son that just the neuro-motor issues. He is a slow reader, doesn't retain a lot of what he reads, doesn't understand written instructions if they are multi-step, forgets assignments that are given orally between the time he hears them and goes to write them down in his planner, has had difficulty memorizing his times tables, makes a myriad of computational errors in math, and is - on good days - an abysmal speller.

His strengths are in his recall knowledge of things he's listened to or watched in a video, his ability to extrapolate information out to broad and diverse ideas, a strong global understanding of how and why things work and drawing conclusions about how those interactions affect other things - sometimes related, sometimes not. He has a keen understanding of human behavior and a heightened, strong sense of humor based on those observations. He has a strong sense of right and wrong which he lives by - even when it means getting himself in trouble by confessing to someone in authority. He is a natural leader and has been since he started school, and he is very good at compensating or deflecting when he is confronted with something he cannot do. He has excellent pitch, can recreate music after he hears it, composes his own songs, and harangues his family into performing in theatrical productions which he creates, adds the music, and directs - usually in our living room over the span of summer break. He won second place last year in the state fair Lego competition and shoots and edits his own movies, mostly humorous mockumentaries.

The psychologist who tested him a few years ago had attended elementary school with someone who is now one of today's most famous movie producers. He told me that he'd never come across someone who reminded him more of what that producer was like back in elementary school.

And because I see these amazing strengths - and see them often masked by things he struggles with - I worry more about how to help him successfully navigate the school system to get what he needs to develop his strengths and and strengthen his weaknesses so that he can live up to the potential he has once he is an adult.

Complicated kid! Those are awesome strengths.

This won't come through for you in time for the IEP meeting, but I'd suggest queueing up for private testing-- as complete as you can get. The math errors, the written instructions-- those seem to me to reach beyond "disorder of written expression" into executive function and language processing areas. Can you find a private neuropsych who can test across the whole range of strengths and deficits?

Armed with that information, you will do better with the school over the longer term-- and you'll know if there's something to address, and how to target your efforts. IMHO far better now than later.

I wouldn't trust a school psych or district diagnostician to make recommendations for a kid this complicated. YMMV.

DeeDee

I would recommend the Eides http://neurolearning.com/

IQ scores can very much be skewed by a learning disability. My son's GAI went up by 35 points (FSIQ went up by 23 points, but was not reportable) in five years due to intensive efforts at remediation. I believe his most recent GAI is still being depressed by 10 points or so, but that's a whole lot better than being depressed by 45 points!

I agree with DeeDee - if you can swing private testing I would do it. Private testing is often more diagnostic than school testing and will contain comprehensive recommendations. Schools generally test to determine eligibility and base line for IEP objectives. Their recommendations are often based on "what they can provide" and "resources" rather than what the child really needs. You probably see this with private OT vs the school OT.

Given the issues around understanding verbal instructions and reading comprehension, I would include a full speech and language evaluation along with the neuropsychological evaluation. Make sure the professionals you select are experienced with children, learning disabilities and school. If there are teaching hospitals, universities and or LD schools in your area, they can give you some good referrals.

If you think you may end up in a legal battle with the school district, you should find out if the evaluators are willing to testify as expert witnesses. You can use their report as evidence that he should remain on an IEP and he needs certain services. If you would like the district to pay for the testing, read up on IEE's Independent educational evaluations.

Given the enormous strengths and the significant difficulties - it makes sense to get an unbiased and expert opinion on how to proceed. Based on what you describe, it seems like he should remain on an IEP.

I also agree, and would add that you want to make sure that the tester really understands 2e issues. It's not good enough for them to say they have experience with gifted kids--our 2e kids have a tendency to throw gifted "experts" for a loop.

Thank you for your feedback. This is exactly what I think is going on with my son but I've yet to find any studies or reports to back it up in a meeting.

The diagnostician from the school told me recently that she knows how badly some parents want their kids to be gifted, but some of them just aren't - but that doesn't mean they're not bright or valuable or blah, blah, blah.

Having been a mother of one bright but not gifted child and another child who tested gifted in all three exceptionalities, I can say without equivocation that I would never wish being gifted on a child for the sake of my ego. It is rife with its own set of challenges and hurdles, and I often think gifted kids have a bit rougher road because of assumptions made about them and because they do not fit easily within the standard education model.

My reason for pushing so hard with my youngest is because I recognize that while the numbers may not indicate a gifted IQ, he displays many of the characteristics of the gifted personality. And as such, he is not going to thrive inside of a square peg in the public school system. But because of his LD, he is not going to thrive in a private school, either. And so I keep pushing the system to give him services that they don't think he needs and keep pushing a diagnostician who thinks I am one of those moms who needs to have gifted kids to feel good about herself.

So true!

If you don't mind my asking, what type of remediation did you utilize with your ds? I'm still not convinced that my erratic dd9 doesn't have some type of LD. We're mostly working on confidence, pushing for accelerated classes even when group test scores don't quite qualify her, and supplementing at home. I don't know if that's the best approach, though. I think that others have me convinced that there is no magic bullet, but success stories are always good to hear !

I got a call yesterday morning from my son's special ed teacher saying she did some in-class testing to see what she should help him work on. He tested at or above grade level in all the areas where he needed remediation, and she said she was concerned about him remaining in the pull-out class because the rest of the kids were much lower functioning. She talked with my son's teacher, and wanted to know if I would agree to have my son stay in regular ed full time and have her as a consultant in the class or for impromptu pull-outs should he need help with a particular task.

I spoke with his teacher, and he is more than supportive of having my son do work on the computer when possible - including taking his spelling tests this way (although we did decide that we might want to disable spell check).

We aren't going to make any of the changes official - just a trial run so that we all know better what does and doesn't work when it comes time to address his IEP meeting next month.

ABQMom (I love that since I grew up in ABQ!), that sounds like a positive development to me. Are you feeling that way? Both his teacher and his secial ed teacher seem to get that your son may need some accommodations and that he is doing very well academically. They sound like very attentive teachers who are really trying to meet your DS where he is, which is really what we all want. A trial run seems like a great plan. How does DS feel about it?

He's so cute about it, mnmom. (BTW 30 days until Balloon Fiesta, since you're a native. Hee.)

He came home and told me he "graduated" from special ed. As much as he said he was worried about losing the smaller class, I think it was a huge boost for him. I'm not sure exactly how or when it happened, since last year I had to help with a major amount of reading, but he sat down last night and read a chapter of Hatchet in a matter of minutes. Something has clicked, and he seems to be off to the races with a bang.

I am still going to fight for the special ed classification at his IEP, because he moves up to midschool next year, and I'm worried about how he'll do with that many different classes and teachers. They may not all be so understanding about a kid who still spells all three versions of there/their/they're as "theer" - no matter how many times I have him correct it.